Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

Oscarr said:

That's a bit of a throw-away comment. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with that one. It is well known outside of the ultra-charismatic circles that Benny Hinn is not a true preacher of the Gospel. In fact, he doesn't preach the Gospel at all. It is well known that his team chooses which sick people come up to the stage to be ministered by him. But there are many truly sick and disabled people in a back room where Hinn goes nowhere near, and all of those go back home unchanged. Even the ones going up on stage, even though they fall down under the "power" (not of God to be sure), they get up still unhealed. There is a video clip of a woman who was prayed for and she told Hinn about her husband who was in a wheel chair after suffering a stroke. Hinn just blew her off and totally ignore the husband. Didn't even attempt to pray for him. This is clearly seen on the video clip. Hinn has made his millions through false promises of healing which have cost the lives of those who stopped taking their medication and kept away from the doctor until it was too late and they ended up dead!

So, don't use Benny Hinn as any sort of example of a genuine healing ministry, because he sure ain't!!!

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I don't believe there are any genuine healing ministries. They have praise reports but so does Benny.

IWalkAlone said:

but Jesus did miracles there. He just didn't do many. Someone's lone faith must have done something.

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Yet He marveled at their lack of faith, that is the west some get healed such as myself but most don't because even though they think they walk by faith but instead a vast majority of the west walks by sight.

Taodeching said:

Yet He marveled at their lack of faith, that is the west some get healed such as myself but most don't because even though they think they walk by faith but instead a vast majority of the west walks by sight.

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Walking by faith not sight doesn't mean we will see miracles. It refers to looking at eternal things rather than temporary things. It means to look to heaven where there is no more illness, rather than looking at this life.

IWalkAlone said:

Walking by faith not sight doesn't mean we will see miracles. It refers to looking at eternal things rather than temporary things. It means to look to heaven where there is no more illness, rather than looking at this life.

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It alao means trusting in God for miracles, you much so much to being a realist of this world and not being of enough faith for the next

Taodeching said:

It alao means trusting in God for miracles, t

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Show me a scripture proving this.

IWalkAlone said:

Show me a scripture proving this.

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You know Scripture. Don't be like Thomas for blessed is he who doesn't see and believe. I will end the conversation it is quite fruitless here good day

Taodeching said:

You know Scripture. Don't be like Thomas for blessed is he who doesn't see and believe. I will end the conversation it is quite fruitless here good day

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Believe what? Not in miracles but in Jesus. You are not interpreting the scripture correctly. If I were Thomas I would see the proof as he did. I Can't believe these people who claim to heal without proof. I see frauds so I need proof.

Oscarr said:

Edited. I wasn't being nice in my response. It's 3:30pm before my afternoon cup of coffee. I am not so nice when I go too long without coffee.

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No worries, I like simple explanations and tend to gravitate to posts like that.
But that being said I'll go back to your post in the morning after my coffee! Haaa

IWalkAlone said:

I need proof

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That is the problem, not enough faith

Taodeching said:

That is the problem, not enough faith

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Nope. Its the prayer collective not me. Seriously though, my faith is why there are no healers or apostles today?

Taodeching said:

That is the problem, not enough faith

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Said Kenneth Copeland and the gang.

Oscarr said:

My take on the verse is that when prayed for by the church elders, the sick person should not get any sicker, but the tide would turn and the sick person should start to get well. James says "the Lord will raise him up" but doesn't say how long that should take. But then, the elders should be men of faith to be able to pray the prayer of faith in order for the results to happen. Trouble is that many church elders are religious but not of the calibre that may be require to be able to pray the prayer of faith. That is probably why the elders' prayers don't work in many cases and the sick person gets sicker or even ends up dead!

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When Jews say "The Lord will raise him up", it does not mean they are implying "The Lord will heal him".

Think of what Martha said to Jesus, she used a similar phrase in John 11

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Israel believed that, when Jesus comes, the dead in the grave will rise, for example Daniel 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Oscarr said:

Jesus and Paul are our models of Gospel ministry. Jesus healed and cast out demons as part of His earthly ministry. Paul's ministry involved healing and casting out of demons. These were also the signs and wonders that accompanied the preaching of the Apostles.

1. I don't have a problem with this. That is not what Acts 15:12 actually says. It was to testify that the signs and wonders took place to confirm that the Gospel was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. It was also to show the Gentiles that they could be converted to Christ and become one in the faith along with the Jews. Also, the word "temporary" is not used in conjunction with signs and wonders anywhere in the New Testament. To insert "temporary" and "alert Israel to a change of dispensation" is adding to God's Word, which is a big no no. Not true. Many of the diaspora Jews received the Gospel of Christ, so to say that "the diaspora Jews rejected Jesus" is a generalisation. .

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Acts 15 was for the little flock of Jewish believers to decide whether the gospel that Paul preached to the gentiles was legitimate.

What Luke recorded in Acts 15:12 was not a casual remark.

Once you accept that Jews always ask for signs (1 Corinthians 1:22), which are my first few points, you will understand that the signs and wonders that God gave Paul to perform among gentiles was necessary to convince the Jews that Paul's gospel was indeed legitimate in Acts 15.

As for disapora, the end of Acts 28, the conclusion of the book of Acts itself clearly stated the judgement of the Holy Spirit on the nation Israel, the nation will be blinded from then on. (Acts 28:26)

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

With this understanding, the true meaning of what Paul stated in Romans 11:11, becomes more significant.

Bible Highlighter said:

1. Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
   
   
2. Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

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chad kincham said:

Answer one: surprisingly, I discovered in my research that highly educated cessationists, such as those in the DTS , Dallas Theological seminary, do not try to use 1 Corinthians 13:8 to argue that spiritual gifts have ended, and here’s why they say that only uneducated cessationists use it:

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While scholars can be correct on certain things, they can also be wrong, too. So I am not into scholarly interpretations. In fact, Jesus said beware of the scribes and He did not tell us to blindly trust them. For scribes are those who tran-scribe the Scriptures (Which would be the scholar today).

If we look at the context of 1 Corinthians 13:8–12, the coming of “the perfect” brings what is “partial” to an end (13:10). Paul says that now we “know in part, but then I will know fully, as I am fully known” (13:12). Presently, our knowledge is incomplete, and “we see only a reflection as in a mirror,” but then we will see “face to face” (13:12).

It is clear, therefore, that “the perfect” is another way of describing “face to face,” and seeing “face to face” most naturally refers to Christ’s second coming. . . .

The idiom “face to face” in 1 Corinthians 13:12doesn’t suggest something abstract like the New Testament canon or spiritual maturity. Instead, it represents the language of encounter with God, and so naturally refers to the second coming, since we will see Jesus “face to face” when “the perfect comes” (1 Cor. 13:10).

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Actually, the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13 is referring to the communicated Word of God being completed with the close of the NT canon. This is the context, my friend.

1 Corinthians 14:36 says, “What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?”

Paul continues,
“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Paul wrote much of the New Testament canon. This is why I believe he was led to write by the Spirit to refer to how what he has written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 13 is a warm up to 1 Corinthians 14.
1 Corinthians 14 is dealing with the error of not communicating God’s words properly.
So the communication of God’s Word is in focus here and not the return of Jesus Christ.

You said:

2. It is scarcely evident that Christians are more mature post-canonically.

It isn’t clear . . . that we are more mature than Christians were in the first century. Such a claim is a rather bold assertion, for it could be read to say that we are even more spiritually mature than the apostles. A quick reading of church history and of the current evangelical landscape raises significant doubts about the assertion as well.

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It’s not really about how Christians are more mature in the sense that they have a deeper dedication today to Christ or in regards to their holiness currently vs. back in the days of the apostles. The idea of the church growing from infancy to maturity is in regards to the time of the church and how God communicated to them in one dispensation vs. another. The church today has grown to have a perfect Word of God (a complete Bible) at their disposal (Whereas they did not all have such a thing before). Prophecy would cease with the close of the canon of Scripture. So the early church was in an infancy stage in regards to prophecy (communication) in that there was still new prophecy to be put forth before the formation of NT Scripture. Tongues also served the same purpose in that the interpreter would give a message from the tongues that would edify the church. The tongues were a sign to the Jews, but the interpretation was for the edification of the church. These things were given as a part of an infancy stage of the church (involving the way God communicated to believers) in that they serve to confirm the words of Jesus and His followers as being authenticate messages from God. Knowledge given by God to a writer of Scripture like Peter and Paul was a special form of knowledge imparted to them by God. Nobody has the authority today to write Scripture like the early apostles did. So this is the knowledge that has vanished away. God inspired knowledge given by the Spirit to write inspired Scripture. So this was a part of the infancy or early stage of the church in how God communicated. The early church did not have a complete Bible because the NT canon was still being formed.

You said:

3. Paul’s historical location when he wrote 1 Corinthians creates a significant problem with seeing “the perfect” as the completed canon.

Paul believed Jesus would return soon, and history would come to an end. This isn’t to take away from Paul’s authority or accuracy, for nothing he wrote is contradicted by two thousand years of history passing. The point I am making is that it is almost impossible that Paul could have meant by “the perfect” the New Testament canon.

4. It is even more unlikely that the Corinthians would have understood the word “perfect” as referring to the canon.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Paul is referring to the New Testament canon. The problem that immediately emerges is that there is no way that the Corinthians would have understood what Paul was talking about! Paul would have had to explain in much more detail than he does here that by “the perfect” he had in mind the completion of the New Testament. Certainly, the Corinthians never imagined or dreamt of a New Testament canon. And why would Paul write about such an idea to them since many—probably most—of them wouldn’t live to see the canon completed, and even if they did live that long, the canon wasn’t compiled together? Indeed, if this is what Paul had in mind, the Corinthians would then know that Jesus could not and would not return for a number of years, and he would only come when the New Testament was finished and accepted as authoritative.

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This is the whole point about the infancy of the church (knowledge in part) vs. having a more fuller knowledge of what God desired us to know with the completion of NT canon (a more fully mature informed church in regards to God’s words and revelation or communication). Knowledge in part (tongues with interpreters, prophecy, and knowledge as a part of forming inspired Scripture) would end with the book of Revelation.

As for Paul: Did he know that the word “perfect” means the future NT canon of Scripture?
The Bible does not say Paul knew what the word “perfect” meant, and even if he did, the Corinthian believers most likely would not have known about this truth. This is why knowledge was in part for them. For it’s possible that God knew that the Corinthians could not handle such a truth even if the apostle Paul knew about such a thing. All Paul was telling them was that there was this thing called the perfect that would come that would end the stage of infancy of partial knowledge, and incomplete prophecy that they had. For Paul says to the early church (Corinthians) that we know in part and we prophecy in part (1 Corinthians 13:9) because they looked through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12). So when Paul talks about how he will become a man, he will put away childish things (i.e. putting away childish things would be comparable to the end of speaking in tongues. For the speaking in tongues was the speaking of real foreign languages. But to a person who did not know this language, it would sound like babbling of a baby).

It’s not that God did not have a plan in all of this. He did. He was confirming the Word with signs following according to Mark 16:20. But just because the Corinthians did not know about the perfect does not invalidate the interpretation which can only be known later. For example: Did the disciples know of Christ’s resurrection ahead of time? No. They were told about it, but they did not understand the words of Jesus when He spoke about His resurrection. Could Jesus have waved His hands over the disciples and give them a picture of His resurrection with them having full knowledge of the resurrection along with the Scriptures that talk about such a thing? Absolutely. But that did not happen. So knowledge in God’s Word is not always fully revealed right away to His people. For even Jesus was prophesied in many places in the OT. Can we honestly say that all the OT saints knew of Christ and his resurrection by the reading of Scripture? Did the OT saint have the same view of OT Scripture we have in the fact that are tons of Messianic prophecies? They may have known a few of them, but I am sure there was a lot that they missed that we know about today. It’s because we have a more fuller mature knowledge of God’s Word that they did not have.

You said:

5. The notion that “the perfect” refers to the canon or to spiritual maturity is also ruled out by what Paul says about knowledge.

“When the perfect comes, the partial will come to an end” (1 Cor. 13:10). Now Paul sees imperfectly and knows partially, but when the perfect arrives he will see “face to face” (1 Cor. 13:12). Partial knowledge will give way to complete knowledge (1 Cor. 13:12). If the “perfect” refers to the New Testament canon or to spiritual maturity, we no longer have partial knowledge. Those who have the canon or those who are mature know fully. Indeed, they know more than Paul who confesses that he knows only partially! But any notion that our knowledge is perfect or better than Paul’s is clearly false. Our knowledge continues to be imperfect. We know truly but not comprehensively and exhaustively. We will only know fully when Jesus returns, when we see him face to face.

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One of the problems in people misunderstanding the Bible is when they speak in absolutes that the Bible never actually says. Paul is not referring to in-part knowledge and then gaining full knowledge as if they can understand all mysteries. 1 Corinthians 13:2 obviously is speaking metaphorically about how a person can understand all mysteries. Nobody alive today can understand all mysteries. So Paul is speaking metaphorically here. So we have to keep this in mind when Paul says he shall know just as others fully know him. But can a person truly know about every waking detail of Paul’s entire life of everything he thought said, and did? No. So his statement that says, “then I shall know even as he has been fully known by others” is referring to the most important parts of Paul’s life that others needed to know. So this is not talking about exhaustive knowledge a person could ever possibly have when they encounter Christ for the first time. Note: I am not even sure that still is even possible even when we meet the Lord. I believe God will always know things that we will not know.

Anyways, I will have to address the rest of what you wrote in another post.

May God bless you (even if we disagree strongly on the Scriptures on this topic).

Oscarr said:

But I have difficulty trusting God for a miracle, such as healing the arthritis in my wrists, because any decision to heal me has to be subject to His sovereign will and He is not at liberty to tell me what that will is.

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The Apostle to the gentiles (Romans 11:13), Paul taught us the following, regarding sufferings of this world, including sicknesses, which he deemed as "light afflictions".

Romans 8:18-25

2 Corinthians 4:16-18

Guojing said:

2 Corinthians 4:16-18

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That scripture is what walking by faith not sight means. We are wasting away yet we look at eternal things where there is no more illness or suffering.. It has nothing to do with healing in this life which is temporary. Its about eternal things.

IWalkAlone said:

That scripture is what walking by faith not sight means. We are wasting away yet we look at eternal things where there is no more illness or suffering.. It has nothing to do with healing in this life which is temporary. Its about eternal things.

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Are you agreeing with my point?