Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It
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Again, I am offering one possibility of why God may not heal a person whereby the elders are praying for this believer to be healed. It could potentially be that this believer may turn out later to go right back towards their sin the rest of their life instead of serving God. It could be that God wants to protect them and take them home early. We really do not know. But the reason why the person is sick in the first place is on account of their past sin.
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Also, we have to ask why did God heal a believer? Would it not naturally be as a result that GOD can see that they would be faithful to Him in some way and do great things for His Kingdom? Why would God want to heal a believer who just later turns out to be reprobate? No doubt God would heal based on their usefulness for His kingdom.
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IWalkAlone
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So everytime someone is prayed over and is healed God healed them? And everytime they were not healed its because God didn't heal them?
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In short… yes. God is the giver and taker of life. That’s a pretty basic truth in Christianity. God decides who lives and who dies. Job says that the Lord gives and He takes away. God knows the day of our own death. Satan cannot take our life without God’s say so or approval.
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IWalkAlone
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But unbelievers are healed in hospitals too. So God healed them?
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I have been busy replying to other posts. But no. I did not see it. I will have to reply later. I have to go out for a little while. I may be back to answer later (Lord willing). But I already provided to you verses that refute your line of thinking already. Romans 2:29 would be a big one for starters.
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Well, off the top of my head, I am not aware of where the Bible heals unbelievers, but I am sure it is possible. But no. I don’t believe if nobody prayed for an unbeliever, and they are healed, it does not equate with a miracle. In the situation with a believer being healed because they are sick on account of their past sins (with the elders praying for him): I see this as God healing because James 5:16 says the Lord will raise him up. Meaning the Lord will heal them by His power.
But…. All life and death is appointed by God (Including believers and unbelievers). God is the giver and taker of life of all people. God is sovereign over His creation.
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In the mean time, try re-reading Romans 2:29.
Ask yourself. Is not circumcision of the heart referring to being born again?
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IWalkAlone
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You said that everyone's life is in God's hands. Therefore if an atheist is healed its because God allowed it. The argument is that those who are not healed are a bunch of unrepentant sinners. I'm not sure that can be proved, or proved that those who are healed are not sinners.
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New Testament Christian
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Yes circumcision of the heart can only come by being born again,
Colossians 2:11-12
In Him you were also circumcised made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST.
Buried with Him in baptism in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
We receive spiritual circumcision when we obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. Which is the perfect law of liberty Paul is teaching about in Romans 2:29
James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
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TruthSeek3r
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I don't think we can establish (and justify) general rules of that kind. God may strategically allow suffering and diseases for a greater good in the short/long term. Remember that God is coordinating and administrating a whole universe, pondering gazillions of factors and variables at the same time. He may strategically allow certain things to happen because who knows the potential ripple effects that said decision might have looking into the future. I'm pretty sure the spiritual realm is governed by complex laws, just like the physical realm, and God has to optimize His decisions taking into consideration all the laws and variables in the universe, while at the same time respecting the free will of individuals, etc.
A good Biblical example to get this point across is 2 Corinthians 12:7-10:
7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Another example is Job, from whom God intentionally withdrew His divine protection in order to allow Satan to test him. Those sorts of things can happen.
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Is the new birth a miracle?
A miracle is supernatural, instantaneous occurrence that supersedes the normal. It is an open, obvious thing for which there is no earthly explanation.
In the vegetable kingdom God created the first plants. He then set in order the law of reproduction, whereby God does not need to keep creating plants full grown. Merely sowing the seed a plant is produced.
Gods law of reproduction is a marvelous thing, but it is not a miracle.
The law of reproduction works similar in the animal kingdom.
A man's seed is sown in the womb of a women.
In the spiritual kingdom, miracles were involved in the beginning of the age, Acts 2; 1Corinthians 12:28.
But God set up the law of reproduction which involves sowing the seed(word of God, gospel) Luke 8:11 into the good soil(the mind of man) Luke 8:8;15.
The good seed in good soil germinates producing faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.
Through the teaching of the Spirit a man is led to obey.
Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom
This all happens through Gods spiritual law rather than miraculously.
Continued on post #118
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New Testament Christian
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Is the new birth a miracle continued.
Regeneration refers to the new birth. To be regenerated is to be born again. In this new birth the seed(word of God, Luke 8:11) must be implanted.
This gospel/word of God is how we are begotten of God,
1Peter 1:23
Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
The preaching of the gospel is the power unto salvation, Romans 1:16.
Born again by the gospel,
1Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
The implanted word saves our souls,
James 1:21
Therefore lay aside all fithiness and overflow of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Regeneration is the normal spiritual effect of the working of Gods fixed spiritual law in the matter.
It takes place in harmony with Gods fixed and known spiritual law of procreation.
Regeneration refers to the new birth. To be regenerated is to be born again. In this new birth the seed(word of God, Luke 8:11) must be implanted.
This gospel/word of God is how we are begotten of God,
1Peter 1:23
Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
The preaching of the gospel is the power unto salvation, Romans 1:16.
Born again by the gospel,
1Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
The implanted word saves our souls,
James 1:21
Therefore lay aside all fithiness and overflow of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Regeneration is the normal spiritual effect of the working of Gods fixed spiritual law in the matter.
It takes place in harmony with Gods fixed and known spiritual law of procreation.
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chad kincham
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That thread is closed but here’s one claim you made:
- Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
- Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.
Some have argued that the particular verb with tongues as the subject is significant. Tongues “will cease” (pausontai), whereas prophecy and knowledge “will come to an end” (katargēthēsetai).
The argument is that the middle voice with the verb pausontai (“will cease”) shows that tongues will cease in and of themselves. . . .
The key feature of this argument is that the gifts will end when “the perfect comes” (1 Cor. 13:10).
On this view, many of the gifts (such as tongues) end when the New Testament is completed, when the canon of Scripture is completed. At that point some of the spiritual gifts are no longer needed, since in the New Testament we have God’s perfect revelation.
A variant of this view is that the perfect doesn’t refer to the writing of the New Testament but to spiritual maturity. Spiritual gifts are no longer necessary because now that we have the New Testament we have all we need for spiritual maturity.
Schreiner argues that rather than seeing “the perfect” as a reference to the close of the canon or to spiritual maturity, Paul clearly was referring to the second coming of Jesus.
If we look at the context of 1 Corinthians 13:8–12, the coming of “the perfect” brings what is “partial” to an end (13:10). Paul says that now we “know in part, but then I will know fully, as I am fully known” (13:12). Presently, our knowledge is incomplete, and “we see only a reflection as in a mirror,” but then we will see “face to face” (13:12).
It is clear, therefore, that “the perfect” is another way of describing “face to face,” and seeing “face to face” most naturally refers to Christ’s second coming. . . .
The idiom “face to face” in 1 Corinthians 13:12doesn’t suggest something abstract like the New Testament canon or spiritual maturity. Instead, it represents the language of encounter with God, and so naturally refers to the second coming, since we will see Jesus “face to face” when “the perfect comes” (1 Cor. 13:10).
The arguments for cessationism from 1 Corinthians 13:8–10 aren’t exegetically convincing for a number of reasons.
1. The difference between the two verbs (“will cease” vs. “will come to an end”) puts too much weight on the grammatical difference.
The two different verbs “come to an end” (katargeō) and “cease” (pauomai) are used for stylistic variety, and we should not press any distinction between the two verbs. I am not saying that the verbs are absolutely synonymous, but that we shouldn’t read into them a major distinction.
2. It is scarcely evident that Christians are more mature post-canonically.
It isn’t clear . . . that we are more mature than Christians were in the first century. Such a claim is a rather bold assertion, for it could be read to say that we are even more spiritually mature than the apostles. A quick reading of church history and of the current evangelical landscape raises significant doubts about the assertion as well.
3. Paul’s historical location when he wrote 1 Corinthians creates a significant problem with seeing “the perfect” as the completed canon.
Paul believed Jesus would return soon, and history would come to an end. This isn’t to take away from Paul’s authority or accuracy, for nothing he wrote is contradicted by two thousand years of history passing. The point I am making is that it is almost impossible that Paul could have meant by “the perfect” the New Testament canon.
4. It is even more unlikely that the Corinthians would have understood the word “perfect” as referring to the canon.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Paul is referring to the New Testament canon. The problem that immediately emerges is that there is no way that the Corinthians would have understood what Paul was talking about! Paul would have had to explain in much more detail than he does here that by “the perfect” he had in mind the completion of the New Testament. Certainly, the Corinthians never imagined or dreamt of a New Testament canon. And why would Paul write about such an idea to them since many—probably most—of them wouldn’t live to see the canon completed, and even if they did live that long, the canon wasn’t compiled together? Indeed, if this is what Paul had in mind, the Corinthians would then know that Jesus could not and would not return for a number of years, and he would only come when the New Testament was finished and accepted as authoritative.
5. The notion that “the perfect” refers to the canon or to spiritual maturity is also ruled out by what Paul says about knowledge.
“When the perfect comes, the partial will come to an end” (1 Cor. 13:10). Now Paul sees imperfectly and knows partially, but when the perfect arrives he will see “face to face” (1 Cor. 13:12). Partial knowledge will give way to complete knowledge (1 Cor. 13:12). If the “perfect” refers to the New Testament canon or to spiritual maturity, we no longer have partial knowledge. Those who have the canon or those who are mature know fully. Indeed, they know more than Paul who confesses that he knows only partially! But any notion that our knowledge is perfect or better than Paul’s is clearly false. Our knowledge continues to be imperfect. We know truly but not comprehensively and exhaustively. We will only know fully when Jesus returns, when we see him face to face.
So, according to Schreiner, there are other reasons to be a cessationist. But this verse isn’t one of them.
Answer two: here’s what I wrote before I learned that educated cessationists say that 1 Corinthians 13:8 does not prove cessationism, and they never use that text:
Even though Paul told the Corinthians church to stop forbidding tongues, and explained that he wanted them have all the gifts in operation in their church until Jesus returns, and listed all the gifts of the spirit, and explained how to use those gifts during church services, told them to seek spiritual gifts, wished they would all speak in tongues, said he spoke in tongues more than anyone, cessationists try to use 1 Corinthians 13:8-11 as their proof text that spiritual gifts ended when the Bible was completed.
But note that when that which is perfect comes, we then see face to face.
The Bible has no face - it has a cover, a binding, pages, chapters, verses, etc. - but Jesus does.
That which is perfect to come is Jesus, because then we shall see FACE TO FACE - an obvious quote from Paul about Moses seeing God face to face, as a friend talks to a friend:
Exo 33:11And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
And Jacob saw God face to face when He wrestled with Jesus in an OT appearance:
Gen 32:30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Here’s the passage:
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Notice in verse 8, three things end, when that which is perfect comes: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge.
Yet in the last days, knowledge increases, says Daniel the prophet:
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
We are currently in an explosion of the increase in man’s knowledge, to where it’s now doubling every six months.
And prophecy also increases in the last days, as God pours out His spirit:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Since knowledge and prophecy increases in the last days and end times - and knowledge, prophecy and tongues end at the same time - it’s obvious that tongues and prophecy, which are gifts of the Holy Spirit, are for today, until Jesus returns and they are no longer needed.
That’s why Paul told the Corinthians that he wanted them to have every spiritual gift while they await the coming of Jesus - because then they won’t be needed any longer, and will expire - when that which is perfect - the kingdom of God and its king, Jesus, comes to earth, and we know as we are known, and we see Him face to face.
Far from saying they would end, Paul imparted the GIFT of CHARISMA to the church at Corinth, to have while they awaited the second coming of Jesus.
There’s the expiration date of spiritual gifts: when Jesus returns and they are no longer needed.
1Co 1:6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The word GIFT there is charisma, where the word charismatic comes from.
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Obviously James 5:16 is in reference to believers only and not unbelievers. If a believer justifies sin, they are willfully sinning and the knowledge of the New Covenant and their punishment is more grave or serious before God.
Hebrews 10:28-29 says,
“He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
Hebrews 10:26 says,
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”
To whom much is given, much is required.
So while a believer can be forgiven of sin if they seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, there is a chance that their sin could be a serious matter between them and the Lord like it was with Ananias and Sapphira. God took the life of these two believers because of the extremely wrong type of sin they did. They were condemned by God on the spot because of their extreme evil that they did; And a great fear came upon the church.
The punishment for other sins is not as severe as it was with Ananias and Sapphira and so if a believer is granted life to be healed by God (with the elders praying for them), it's because the type of sin which is forgivable and most likely God knows that they will be fruitful for His kingdom.
As for God allowing medical science to cure unbelievers of sickness, harmful accidents, etc., I believe that they are not the same as believers in that they are healed by the ways of this world. Yes, God can extend their life by natural life situations (like leading them into a healthy diet, exercise, and learning to be safe, or using angels to protect them), so as to see them repent or seek forgiveness with Jesus, but only God knows when a person is to live and die, and only God is sovereign over a person's days upon this Earth.
Job 14:5 says,
“Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;”
Deuteronomy 32:39
“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.”
1 Samuel 2:6
“The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.”
James 4:13-15 (NKJV)
“Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.”
Luke 12:15-20
“And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth. And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?”
Luke 17:26-27
“And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”
Psalms 39:4 (NKJV)
“Lord, make me to know my end,
And what is the measure of my days,”
Job 1:21
“And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”
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