Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

chad kincham said:
That’s because they believe the cessationist claims, used to explain the lack of miracles of healing and use of spiritual gifts in their dead churches.

I had a cessationist tell me that healing today is done by the devil as a deception.

That’s an extreme form of Cessationism. Not all Cessationists (like myself) would subscribe to such nonsense. God obviously still heals today and does good by His own will. What we don’t see is apostles like back in the day bringing people back from the dead, and cleansing lepers instantly, the healing of the blind, etc.

New Testament Christian · Nov 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I am a Cessationist, and I believe God still performs miracles today. Granted, it is not like the miracles we see done by the early apostles like the raising up of the dead, the instant cleansing of lepers, etc.

I believe God is more low key these days because believers today have the miracle of His complete Word at our disposal (Which many apostles did not have). But do you honestly think God cannot heal cancer, or other diseases or sicknesses today?

You are a good Bible student.
I would have to be given scriptural evidence that God allows miracles to occur in these last days.

chad kincham · Nov 27, 2021

Albion said:
1. The mindset of first century people concerning miracles, etc. was much different from that of modern people. We do have more information to go on today.

2. The conversions today that are attributable to an unexplained religious healing are much more limited than what we think happened in antiquity when Christianity conquered a pagan empire in surprising fashion.

Except the existence of churches where spiritual gifts are taught and used, and the sick are still healed in the same way outlined in James 5:13, contradict your scenario.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

New Testament Christian said:
You are a good Bible student.
I would have to be given scriptural evidence that God allows miracles to occur in these last days.

Moses and Elijah will be able to perform miracles in the last days.

“And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.” (Revelation 11:5).

Also, nothing is said of James 5:13-16 ending. For this is the healing of the sick by God’s power (miracle) and it is not in reference to the openly public miraculous sign gifts (Which were to confirm the Word to the unbelieving Jews).

chad kincham · Nov 27, 2021

Oscarr said:
I posted this in the Spirit-filled forum, but I think it will generate a lot of interest by re-posting it here:

As I have been reading these threads on miracles and cessationism, I am also reading John Calvin's commentary on Acts. These jumped out of the page this morning:

Acts 19:12: "For [miracles] were proofs of God's extraordinary power, but he records that Paul's apostleship was distingished by these signs, in order that the authority of his teaching might be more certain."

Also, concerning Acts 19:13, commenting on the event where the demon overpowered the sons of Sceva:
"So that it might be seen more clearly that Paul's apostleship was confirmed by these miracles, which have just been mentioned, Luke now shows that when certain men made false pretense to the name of Christ, such an abuse was severely punished. We learn from this that such powers were put out through the agency of Paul for no other purpose except that evidence might be given to all that he was faithfully preaching Christ as the power of God, since the Lord not only did not allow them to be separated from the pure teaching of the Gospel, but also punished so severely those who were irregularly appropriating them for their own exorcisms. Again we gather from that, that all miracles obscuring the Name of Christ are deceptions of the devil, and that those, who lay claim to genuine miracles of God for any other purpose than confirming the pure religion, are deceivers."

So, it is clear that Calvin believed that the miracles were to support the preaching of the Gospel and to confirm thr truth of the Gospel when preached to the unsaved. Calvin says that any claim to miracles that are separate from the preaching of the Gospel in the Name of Christ, are false, and those who claim such miracles are deceivers.

This quote, made in the late 16th Century by John Calvin, perfectly describes the false Prosperity and Guaranteed preachers who are claiming miracles and healing as part of their ministries. This is because these Prosperity preachers are not preaching the Gospel of Christ, but are claiming God's power for themselves - to bolster their own ministries and persons thereby obscuring Christ.

Calvin says that the true miracles of Paul were "to prove himself a true apostle of Christ, to win men's confidence in the Gospel, and to confirm his ministry". He says that "the false appearance of miracles is a horrible charm for deluding unbelievers, so that they are plunged into deeper darkness because they rejected the light of God."

I find it remarkable that Calvin, so many hundreds of years ago, is clearly describing many of the aspects of the Prosperity, Guaranteed, Word-Faith claims of miracles and healing, when their ministries are almost exclusively directed at professing Christians in their conferences, rather than preaching the true Gospel to the unsaved.

Calvin is the worst theologian of all time, and Calvinism is an insult to God’s character and nature.

Jesus said that the signs that follow believers - not just Paul, not just the apostles- is laying hands on the sick and healing them, Mark 16, and healing is for the church, where elders lay hands on the sick and the prayer of faith heals them, James 5:13.

All the 120 of those waiting at Pentecost received Holy Spirit power, per Acts 1:8, which is Dunamis - miracle healing power, in the Greek - and Steven, not an apostle, did many great signs and miracles among the people because he was full of faith and Dunamis power, Acts 6:8.

Spiritual gifts such as healing were never just for the apostles - cessationists don’t know the Bible - they should try reading it instead of Calvin.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

New Testament Christian said:
You are a good Bible student.
I would have to be given scriptural evidence that God allows miracles to occur in these last days.

Here is a BIG miracle that happens to all new believers.
They are born again spiritually by the Holy Spirit, and by water (i.e. the Scriptures).
They receive a new heart with new desires.

For Jesus talked about how we must be born again in John 3.
This is a miracle. The change of a heart by God.
To be saved by Jesus Christ.

Albion · Nov 27, 2021

chad kincham said:
Except the existence of churches where spiritual gifts are taught and used, and the sick are still healed in the same way outlined in James 5:13, contradict your scenario.

Well, there are churches in which such gifts are claimed, but that in itself doesn't prove anything more than, for example, pointing to a Spiritualist church and saying that communication with the dead is going on there or a church in which people have seen communion bread bleed.

In addition, the passage in James, which was cited, shows us the power of prayer, not the miraculous "gifts" referred to in Corinthians.

New Testament Christian · Nov 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Moses and Elijah will be able to perform miracles in the last days.

“And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.” (Revelation 11:5).

Also, nothing is said of James 5:13-16 ending. For this is the healing of the sick by God’s power (miracle) and it is not in reference to the openly public miraculous sign gifts (Which were to confirm the Word to the unbelieving Jews).

I disagree on both points.

James is referring to Godl healing through natural means. Not miraculously. Where is the evidence of sick being healed miraculously today. I've never seen such.

Most all of Revelation has already occurred.
Revelation 1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.

Verse two shows John has already seen these things, past tense.

Also revelation is a book of symbolism and figurative language.

Many mistake passages in revelation for literal when God never intended for His revelation to be taken literally.

Gods word teaches miracles have ended.
There is no distinction given between the "kinds" of miracles.
The new covenant speak of all miracles ending.

1Corinthians 13:1-13
Though I speak with tongues.....

2 and I have the gift of prophecy....

4 Charity suffereth long and is kind; charity envieth not....is not puffed up.

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know IN PART and we prophecy IN PART

10 But when that which is PERFECT has come then that which is IN PART shall be done away.

11 when I was a child, i spake as a child, i understand as a child, i thought as a child: but when i came a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know IN PART; but then shall i know even as also i am known.

13 ....

No distinction of what will cease as far as miracles go in these passages.

I see no distinction in the scriptures.

All miracles will cease.

When?

When that which is perfect has come/ been completed.

When the competition has come. Those things in part, miraculous gifts will cease/end.

What is the perfect in verse 10?

Answer: The completed revelation of God ie Holy Bible.

Once the Bible has been completed, all those things in part will end.

The Bible is completed. It is perfect.

Therefore no more need for miracles.

The main purpose for miracles is to prove that the apostles were spokespersons for Jesus,
Mark 16:20.

They did not have Bibles in the first century.
So, God had them confirm the Word with signs and wonders.

That is how they proved their teaching was the word of
God.

We prove we teach the word of God today with book, chapter and verse.
No need for miracles anymore.

TruthSeek3r · Nov 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Many believers today seem to blur the line between God doing a miracle in His timing vs. the sign gifts given to the apostles for the early church (Which have ceased). There is a difference between the two.

An example of a sign gift would be an apostle of Jesus who has the early church gift of healing and who is able to heal others 100% of the time. There is no apostle alive today who is able to do what the early apostles did. The Bible talks about how Peter healed those who were sick by his shadow. We do not know of any claims of this happening whereby a man of God can heal 100% of the time every time.

The best we got is prayer and sometimes God will heal a person but this would not be a guaranteed healing, and this would not involve the healing of amputees.

Let's see what the folks over on 'Spirit-filled / Charismatic' have to say about this: Have massive, apostolic-level healings continued?

Albion · Nov 27, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
Let's see what the folks over on 'Spirit-filled / Charismatic' have to say about this: Have massive, apostolic-level healings continued?

Unless they answer your question there by saying that massive, apostolic-level healings, etc. have not continued--which they obviously have not--there isn't anything to be learned over there.

Please get back in touch with us on this thread when any Continuationist posting there admits it.

New Testament Christian · Nov 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Here is a BIG miracle that happens to all new believers.
They are born again spiritually by the Holy Spirit, and by water (i.e. the Scriptures).
They receive a new heart with new desires.

For Jesus talked about how we must be born again in John 3.
This is a miracle. The change of a heart by God.
To be saved by Jesus Christ.

How does God change the heart of man?
It is through the gospel preaching of His Word.

No miracle needed.

Romans 10:17. Faith cometh by hearing the gospel.
The word is what pricks a mans heart, Acts 2:37
And moves him to repentance.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is Quick and POWERFUL and sharpner than any twoedged sword. PIERCING even to DIVIDE ASUNDER OF SOUL AND SPIRIT, and of the joints and marrow and is a DECERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART.

The word of God is what changes a mans heart.
Not a modern day miracle

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

chad kincham said:
Calvin is the worst theologian of all time, and Calvinism is an insult to God’s character and nature.

Jesus said that the signs that follow believers - not just Paul, not just the apostles- is laying hands on the sick and healing them, Mark 16, and healing is for the church, where elders lay hands on the sick and the prayer of faith heals them, James 5:13.

All the 120 of those waiting at Pentecost received Holy Spirit power, per Acts 1:8, which is Dunamis - miracle healing power, in the Greek - and Steven, not an apostle, did many great signs and miracles among the people because he was full of faith and Dunamis power, Acts 6:8.

Spiritual gifts such as healing were never just for the apostles - cessationists don’t know the Bible - they should try reading it instead of Calvin.

Well, I am strongly against Calvinism and I particularly do not like John Calvin (Two words, “Michael Servetus”). But I have actually made a good biblical case for the cessation of the miraculous sign gifts. Note: This would not be the cessation of all gifts and neither would this be the cessation of all miracles obviously. One can check out this biblical case here and a continuation of that discussion here:

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

New Testament Christian · Nov 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I am strongly against Calvinism and I particularly do not like John Calvin (Two words, “Michael Servetus”). But I have actually made a good biblical case for the cessation of the miraculous sign gifts. Note: This would not be the cessation of all gifts and neither would this be the cessation of all miracles obviously. One can check out this biblical case here and a continuation of that discussion with more biblical points made later.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Would you please address my posts to you?

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I am strongly against Calvinism and I particularly do not like John Calvin (Two words, “Michael Servetus”). But I have actually made a good biblical case for the cessation of the miraculous sign gifts. Note: This would not be the cessation of all gifts and neither would this be the cessation of all miracles obviously. One can check out this biblical case here and a continuation of that discussion with more biblical points made later.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Would you give some Bible verses that teach being saved must come through miraculous means?

IWalkAlone · Nov 27, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
Here are a few testimonies of miraculous healings:

Has anyone received a miracle/healing or know someone who has?

Patricia da Silva Costa Salvation Testimony Born Again - saved from witchcraft (read the description of the video)

Cases of Healed Blindness and Raised from the Dead

Keener Matthew03 Clip01 MiracleClaims Widespread

Former Kundalini Yoga Teacher Reveals All (Mike Shreve)

Metal Healing Story

Healed of scoliosis | New Creation Church

Healed of a Brain Tumor and Deliverance Ministry Testimony ~ Cast Out Demons

Sisters we prayed for totally healed of rumathoid arthritis and cancer in the uterus in JESUS name

Talkin' Healing, Deliverance, and Street Evangelism with EYA Report (From May 7th 2021)!

Muslim man gets healed by Jesus at a mall, and testifies!

Muslim only by name finds Jesus. Psychedelic, spiritual realms. Jesus saved me.My personal testimony (guy claims to have been healed at some point in the video, don't remember the exact second)

And here are some books collating stories of miracles:

The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural: https://www.amazon.com/Case-Miracles-Journalist-Investigates-Supernatural/dp/0310259185

Miracles : 2 Volumes: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-volumes-Credibility-Testament-Accounts-ebook/dp/B007KOI2PY/

The Miracles: A Medical Doctor Says Yes to Miracles!: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Medical-Doctor-Says-Yes/dp/B007RXEG58

Stories of Divine Healing: Supernatural Testimonies that Ignite Faith for Your Healing: https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Divine-Healing-Supernatural-Testimonies-ebook/dp/B07GCPSHQB/

Miracles: Eyewitness to Some of the Greatest Miracles of Our Time: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-R-W-Shambach/dp/0768428300/

Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Still-Surprised-Power-Spirit/dp/031010811X

Those books don't prove anything. Elders pray for the sick and they still die

Albion · Nov 27, 2021

IWalkAlone said:
Those books don't prove anything. Elders pray for the sick and they still die

But more than that...if they recover, it's because of prayer, just as you said in your own post.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

New Testament Christian said:
How does God change the heart of man?
It is through the gospel preaching of His Word.

No miracle needed.

Romans 10:17. Faith cometh by hearing the gospel.
The word is what pricks a mans heart, Acts 2:37
And moves him to repentance.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is Quick and POWERFUL and sharpner than any twoedged sword. PIERCING even to DIVIDE ASUNDER OF SOUL AND SPIRIT, and of the joints and marrow and is a DECERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART.

The word of God is what changes a mans heart.
Not a modern day miracle

While I agree that man’s free will is involved in accepting Jesus, I do not believe that the receiving a new heart is man’s doing. That is a part of the good things of God He gives to us when we take that step of faith.

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Note: Granted, this prophecy is focused primarily on Israel and their entrance into the Millennium, but the promise of having a new heart begins with the New Covenant when Jesus died upon the cross. For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16).

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:6-8).

For a person who was not born again spiritually is uncircumcised in heart.

“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.” (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

Paul says, “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:29).

Yes, I believe God’s Word plays a part of a person receiving faith and being born again, but it is not by the words alone that save us, but it is in the spirit (a circumcision of the heart by God that changes us when we take that first step of faith). I don’t know about you, but when I accepted Jesus as my Savior in 1992, it was like I was a new person. I was not exactly the same person I was before. This was God’s doing in giving me a new heart because I stepped out in faith in trusting in that Jesus died for my sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for my salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

New Testament Christian said:
Would you please address my posts to you?

Which ones?

You said:
Would you give some Bible verses that teach being saved must come through miraculous means?

See post #76.

IWalkAlone · Nov 27, 2021

Albion said:
But more than that...if they recover, it's because of prayer, just as you said in your own post.

Where did I say that? Some recover some die. That doesn't sound like a miracle

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

New Testament Christian said:
I disagree on both points.

James is referring to Godl healing through natural means. Not miraculously. Where is the evidence of sick being healed miraculously today. I've never seen such.

Then there is no purpose in praying to God to heal the sick if God does not supernaturally intervene. I already pointed out to you the words in James 5:16 in how it was the Lord who would raise that person up and not the individual raising himself up.

You said:
Most all of Revelation has already occurred.
Revelation 1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.

God’s view of time is different than our view of time.

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2 Peter 3:8).

Somebody would either have to ignore history or smoke dope to rationalize that events of Revelation have happened already. We do not hear about anywhere in history about one fourth of the world being killed, and demons coming up out of the ground, etc.

You said:
Verse two shows John has already seen these things, past tense.

It’s a vision of the future. That’s why he can refer to how he seen things past tense. He was recalling the vision that he had in the past.

You said:
Also revelation is a book of symbolism and figurative language.

Many mistake passages in revelation for literal when God never intended for His revelation to be taken literally.

There is no rule in any part of the Bible saying that Revelation must be all metaphorical. For how do you interpret the metaphors? Usually the Bible defines metaphors that are in the Bible. The general rule of thumb in any reading that can be taken literal should be because that is the basic rule of reading most things we read in life. People read Revelation as being primarily metaphorical because they simply do not like what it says. The same is true for people involving Genesis 1. They don’t like what it says… so they thrown down the metaphor card.

You said:
Gods word teaches miracles have ended.
There is no distinction given between the "kinds" of miracles.
The new covenant speak of all miracles ending.

1Corinthians 13:1-13
Though I speak with tongues.....

2 and I have the gift of prophecy....

4 Charity suffereth long and is kind; charity envieth not....is not puffed up.

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know IN PART and we prophecy IN PART

10 But when that which is PERFECT has come then that which is IN PART shall be done away.

11 when I was a child, i spake as a child, i understand as a child, i thought as a child: but when i came a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know IN PART; but then shall i know even as also i am known.

13 ....

No distinction of what will cease as far as miracles go in these passages.

I see no distinction in the scriptures.

All miracles will cease.

When?

When that which is perfect has come/ been completed.

When the competition has come. Those things in part, miraculous gifts will cease/end.

What is the perfect in verse 10?

Answer: The completed revelation of God ie Holy Bible.

Once the Bible has been completed, all those things in part will end.

The Bible is completed. It is perfect.

Therefore no more need for miracles.

The main purpose for miracles is to prove that the apostles were spokespersons for Jesus,
Mark 16:20.

They did not have Bibles in the first century.
So, God had them confirm the Word with signs and wonders.

That is how they proved their teaching was the word of
God.

We prove we teach the word of God today with book, chapter and verse.
No need for miracles anymore.

This is taking Cessationism too far in my opinion. Nowhere does the passage say that all miracles have ceased altogether. You are making leaps of assumption with the text there.

Yes, prophecies will fail. Yes. Tongues will cease. Yes. God inspired new knowledge (like that of the writing of Scripture) shall vanish away (because the Bible ended with Revelation). But the miraculous healing by God if a person prays? It does not say in that passage that such a thing has ended. That would be your imagination working overtime. Yes, I understand the Charismatics place an overemphasis on miracles, but it is just as equally wrong to say that there are no more miracles at all happening anymore. As I pointed out to you before, the new heart given to a believer is a miracle. But of course I am not expecting you to see that. For your own reasons you don’t want God to do any kind of miracles today.

Albion · Nov 27, 2021

IWalkAlone said:
Where did I say that? Some recover some die. That doesn't sound like a miracle

Let's back up. You referred to elders praying for the sick. And, yes, you said that when this is done, they can still die. My observation was that sometimes they recover, but under the circumstances, it has nothing to do with miraculous gifts; what we're describing is the power of prayer.

Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

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