Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

tall73 said:

I will let Bob explain the Adventist view on that.

As far as my view, in the Garden of Eden there was no need for a sanctuary. Adam spoke face to face with God in the garden. And in the New Jerusalem there is no need of a temple either, because the Lamb is the sanctuary.

God told Israel to build Him a sanctuary that He might dwell among them. We know that the earthly is a shadow of the heavenly, the true.

Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.
Exo 25:9 Exactly as I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.

But unlike Adam in the garden, now man cannot just go immediately into God's presence. The sanctuary was needed for Israel so that they could approach a holy God, and have their sin and uncleanness removed and atoned for.

Not anyone could go in. Only the priests could go into the first compartment, and only the high priest, once a year, with blood, and burning incense, and wearing the right garment, and approaching in the prescribed manner could go into the second.

Sin is pictured as contaminating things around it. The sanctuary is defiled by being in the midst of an unclean, sinful people. This is stated in the Day of Atonement service:

Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Sin and uncleanness were to be kept away from the sanctuary:

Lev 22:3 Say unto them, Whosoever he be of all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, that soul shall be cut off from my presence: I am the LORD.
Lev 22:4 What man soever of the seed of Aaron is a leper, or hath a running issue; he shall not eat of the holy things, until he be clean. And whoso toucheth any thing that is unclean by the dead, or a man whose seed goeth from him;
Lev 22:5 Or whosoever toucheth any creeping thing, whereby he may be made unclean, or a man of whom he may take uncleanness, whatsoever uncleanness he hath;
Lev 22:6 The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.
Lev 22:7 And when the sun is down, he shall be clean, and shall afterward eat of the holy things; because it is his food.

Another example of this is described in the uncleanness that happened when a woman had an irregular issue of blood.

Lev 15:29 And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons and bring them to the priest, to the entrance of the tent of meeting.
Lev 15:30 And the priest shall use one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her before the LORD for her unclean discharge.
Lev 15:31 “Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst.”

Here it is necessary to remove her uncleanness so that she does not die in her uncleanness by defiling the tabernacle in their midst. She is to wait some time before going to be cleansed. And then the sin offering is the solution to uncleanness and sin, and there are various types spelled out for certain situations.

If a person does not repent, or does not submit to the sin offering for cleansing and atonement, then they paid the price for their own sin, and were cut off.

Num 19:13 Whoever touches a dead person, the body of anyone who has died, and does not cleanse himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from Israel; because the water for impurity was not thrown on him, he shall be unclean. His uncleanness is still on him.

Here we have a case of someone who was eligible to be cleansed, but did not do so. As a result he is still unclean. And because of that he defiles the tabernacle. And here, because he did not accept the cleansing offered through the sacrifice, he is cut off and removes the defiling by the loss of his own life.

So sin defiles automatically everything around it. This is stated also in Numbers in regards to bloodshed. It defiled the whole land, and the Lord dwells in the land, in the midst of the people of Israel:

Num 35:34 You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell, for I the LORD dwell in the midst of the people of Israel.”

We also see this in the response of Isaiah when He sees the Lord in the temple:

Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
Isa 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.
Isa 6:7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

Isiah is afraid that he will perish if He is in the presence of a holy God. But he is atoned for.

In the earthly type sin defiled by its presence. The heavenly is said to be in need of cleansing, apparently because it is contaminated by sin in the universe. God wants to deal with the sin problem, and took measures through the plan of salvation to purify all things contaminated by Sin. It was through blood of animals in the type, which point to the blood of Christ in the reality.

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Thanks for the explanation. I think I was able to follow what you were saying up until where the heavenly sanctuary is contaminated by human sin.

But thanks again for the explanation.

tall73 said:

Bob, you totally change the meaning of the type.
It was cleansing ministration of blood, not investigation of each case. That is why you can't find the investigation of each case in the type. It wasn't there. And that was not the purpose. That is why only the Adventists teach this. Because it is all a rationalization of 1844, and a denial of Jesus' full atonement, done for us.

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Sorry I am not a part of this discussion but I respectfully disagree with your claims here and do not believe them to be biblical at all as I see the mistake your making here is in trying to separate judgement from the "final" atonement in the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary and removal from all sin from Gods presence which is not supported in the scriptures and is not biblical.

For example the work of the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary was only a "shadow" or copy of the work done by Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man to teach us of God's work of salvation for all mankind (see Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-26) and the cleansing of all sin from God's presence in the great day of atonement of "Yom kippur" as shown in Leviticus 23:27-31 so judgement is directly linked to the great day of atonement as those who were still unrepentant of there sins were cut off from God's people which judgement determines.

For example, the earthly Sanctuary which was only a copy of the heavenly (Hebrews 8:2), the annual day of atonement was for the cleansing of all the sins from all of God's people brought into the Sanctuary throughout the year *Hebrews 9:6; Leviticus 4:7; Leviticus 10:16-18; Numbers 18:7.

Under the old covenant on the great day of atonement and the annual cleansing of the earthly sanctuary and the removal of sin from Gods' presence, all those who did not afflict their souls in repentance for sin when the Great high Priest entered into the second apartment, and remained unrepentant, were to be cut off (כָּרַת; kârath; H3772; means destroyed, perish; cut off; eliminate or kill) from Gods' people not receiving God's forgiveness (see Leviticus 23:29).

As shown already in Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-26, the annual day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary was only a type or "shadow" of the ministration and work of Jesus as our great High Priest being applied to His work in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man. This work of Jesus represents His work on behalf of all of Gods' people all through time, removing sin from the presence of God that takes place prior to the second coming.

The final work of the cleansing of the Heavenly sanctuary therefore must absolutely include an investigative judgement as stated in Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 20:12; Hebrews 10:30; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 6:10 because there can be no final atonement and cleansing and removal of sin without judgement to know who is still repentant for their sins and who is not repentant prior to the removal of all sin from God's presence and the second coming.

Atonement and the cleansing of the sanctuary and the removal of all sin from God's presence, and cleansing of all sin (as opposed to justification before final atonement) is linked directly to Gods' mercy, grace love, justice and forgiveness of sin which are all conditional to believing and following what Gods 'Word says.

The final act of atonement or the cleansing of the sanctuary is the final removal of sin from God's presence which is linked to judgement as shown in Leviticus 23:27-29 which shows that those who are unrepentant after receiving Gods' forgiveness and continue in sin will be cut off (see also Hebrews 10:26-31) or destroyed from Gods' people. The cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary therefore determines who has remained faithful to the end received God's forgiveness and who has not (judgement).

Note, at the second coming, His reward is with him and judgement of the saved and unsaved has already been made prior to the second coming where it is written; "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." - see Revelation 22:11-15.

According to the scriptures, known unrepentant sin will keep all who practice it out of God's kingdom once we receive a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and choose to reject it and return to unbelief and sin according to Hebrews 10:26-31.

HAPPY SABBATH!

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord said:

all those who did not afflict their souls in repentance for sin when the Great high Priest entered into the second apartment, and remained unrepentant, were to be cut off (כָּרַת; kârath; H3772; means destroyed, perish; cut off; eliminate or kill) from Gods' people not receiving God's forgiveness

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I have pointed out that those who are in the camp must respond in faith and afflict themselves on that day, and that those who do not afflict themselves are cut off. However, this cutting off would happen when Jesus comes out of the sanctuary, and is not the stated role of the high priest during his time in the sanctuary. The high priest in the sanctuary in the type is not shown investigating cases, but ministering blood for atonement.

Bob and I have discussed for hundreds of posts in a different thread regarding the passages Adventists look at for pre-advent judgment of individual cases of professed believers, and have expressed our disagreement with each other's positions. For this thread I don't care to re-hash it again. We agree there will be an end time judgment, but disagree with the specifics. And while I don't agree with the Adventist pre-advent investigative judgment, we could even grant that for the purposes of discussion. It still would not be what the type describes for the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. What the high priest did in the type is stated in Lev. 16 and summarized in Hebrews 9:7, and is ministering atoning blood for all the sins of the camp.

And I have not stated that people's fate has been decided, or that all sins were forgiven for individuals in the first century. Rather, in the first century Jesus died once for all and entered by means of blood once for all, and made purification. That blood work is the basis for our receiving mercy and help as we come to Him. We still go to Jesus in real time to obtain the benefits of this ministration personally. But in the type, the high priest made atonement sufficient for the whole camp. Not all avail themselves of it through faith, confession, afflicting themselves, etc. And our response to His atonement determines whether we are ultimately cut off.

Under the old covenant on the great day of atonement and the annual cleansing of the earthly sanctuary and the removal of sin from Gods' presence,

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The scapegoat portion happens when Jesus leaves the sanctuary. So some of the elements still wait for that time. I see this part related to the judgment and final removal of sin.

But the blood work for atonement happened in the sanctuary, and Jesus already did that at one point in time in history. And that portion happening in the first century actually makes it possible for all of those who are believers, like all the camp, to look in faith to Jesus' atoning work. In the type the whole cycle took place each year, allowing all to participate. But in the fulfillment Jesus made purification right at the beginning so that all could participate.
That is one of the changes from a once for all death and once for all entry by means of blood. It happened once in the first century, but all can look in faith to it now.

The final work of the cleansing of the Heavenly sanctuary therefore must absolutely include an investigative judgement as stated in Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 20:12; Hebrews 10:30; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 6:10 because there can be no final atonement and cleansing and removal of sin without judgement to know who is still repentant for their sins and who is not repentant prior to the removal of all sin from God's presence and the second coming.

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There will be a judgment. It is not the cleansing by the high priest in the sanctuary. Because the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was to present blood for atonement. Now people either accept it or not.

Atonement and the cleansing of the sanctuary and the removal of all sin from God's presence, and cleansing of all sin (as opposed to justification before final atonement) is linked directly to Gods' mercy, grace love, justice and forgiveness of sin which are all conditional to believing and following what Gods 'Word says.

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The cleansing of all the sins of the camp were the result of one blood ministration. And that already happened. But the people were cut off or not based on their response. The ministration for atonement in the sanctuary is distinct from the cutting off of those who reject that atonement.

The cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary therefore determines who has remained faithful to the end received God's forgiveness and who has not (judgement).

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The cleansing was atoning blood. The cutting off was if they didn't accept the cleansing blood. The high priest was not examining cases in the sanctuary, He was presenting blood for atonement.

But we do agree that when He comes those are cut off who reject His grace. I see the scapegoat portion playing out then as well, matching the timing of a fall feast.

Leaf473 said:

Thanks for the explanation. I think I was able to follow what you were saying up until where the heavenly sanctuary is contaminated by human sin.

But thanks again for the explanation.

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It is certainly a new thought to many that the heavenly sanctuary would need cleansing. But the Scriptures indicate they do.

Some explain it by making reference to the sins of the angels as well, but the type doesn't reference that, and no statement is found of it in the fulfillment either. Rather, it is consistently seen to be human sin that is impacting the sanctuary.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The author states the necessity based on the type. So whatever mechanism you have for the earthly would be related in some way to the heavenly.

tall73 said:

I have pointed out that those who do not afflict themselves are cut off to Bob, and that the people responded to the work of the high priest by afflicting themselves. However, this cutting off would happen when Jesus comes out of the sanctuary, and is not the stated role of the high priest during his time in the sanctuary. The high priest in the sanctuary in the type is not shown investigating cases, but ministering blood for atonement.

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As posted in post # 382 linked I believe that the scriptures teach that the penalty of "cutting off" happens after the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of all sin from Gods' presence but judgement needs to happen before the penalty is given. Which is why scripture was provided to the application of the heavenly sanctuary and the completion of the judgement to the second coming when Christs work is finished and His reward is with him at the second coming, so judgement of the saved and unsaved has already been decided prior to the second coming where it is written; "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." - see Revelation 22:11-15.

We are talking about the type and the anti-types. That is the earthly with the heavenly. According to Leviticus 23:27-30 those who remained in unrepentant sin during the great day of atonement were "cut off" or destroyed from Gods' people. For this to take place judgement must be included to know who must be "cut off" and who is not. In the new covenant and the heavenly Sanctuary Christ is both our king, Great high Priest, and judge (Psalms 9:8; Psalms 96:13; Psalms 98:9; John 5:22; John 5:27; Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Peter 4:17; Hebrews 9:27; Hebrews 10:26-31 etc).

The "cutting off" in the earthly type is therefore included in the cutting off in the heavenly and the investigative judgement decides this. Tell me who decides who was "cut off" in the earthly day of atonement and who does the same in the heavenly? Just the fact that there is a "cutting off" of those who continue in unrepentant sin shows that there is a judgment in both the earthly and the heavenly prior to the second coming. Although I believe God is our judge for both applications here who uses man in the earthly and as God himself will be our judge in the heavenly.

tall73 said:

Bob and I have discussed for hundreds of posts in a different thread regarding the passages Adventists look at for pre-advent judgment of individual cases of professed believers, and have expressed our disagreement with each other's positions. For this thread I don't think we need to hash that out for another hundred pages. We agree there will be an end time judgment, but disagree with the specifics.

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I am not really sure what you have discussed already although I agree that if your position is closed of course you are free to believe what ever you wish. That is between you and God and we can indeed agree to disagree.

tall73 said:

I have not stated that people's fate has been decided, or that all sins were forgiven for individuals in the first century. Rather, in the first century Jesus died once for all and entered by means of blood once for all, and made purification. That blood work is the basis for our receiving mercy and help as we come to Him. We still go to Jesus in real time to obtain the benefits of this ministration personally. But in the type, the high priest made atonement sufficient for the whole camp. But as you note not all avail themselves of it through faith, confession, afflicting themselves, etc. And our response to His atonement determines whether we are ultimately cut off. The scapegoat portion happens when Jesus leaves the sanctuary. So some of the elements still wait for that time.

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Yes agreed generally here in this part of your post.

tall73 said:

But the blood work for atonement happened in the sanctuary, and Jesus already did that at one point in time in history. And that portion happening in the first century actually makes it possible for all of those who are believers, like all the camp, to look in faith to Jesus' atoning work. In the type the whole cycle took place each year, allowing all to participate. But in the fulfillment Jesus made purification right at the beginning so that all could participate. That is one of the changes from a once for all death and once for all entry by means of blood. It happened once in the first century, but all can look in faith to it now.

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Kind of, although according to the scriptures, the initial blood work happens in the court yard outside of the holy place as shown in the diagram below. The "final atonement" or great day of atonement happens in the most holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary.

LoveGodsWord wrote: The final work of the cleansing of the Heavenly sanctuary therefore must absolutely include an investigative judgement as stated in Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 20:12; Hebrews 10:30; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 6:10 because there can be no final atonement and cleansing and removal of sin without judgement to know who is still repentant for their sins and who is not repentant prior to the removal of all sin from God's presence and the second coming.

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Your response here...

tall73 said:

There will be a judgment. It is not the cleansing by the high priest in the sanctuary. Because the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was to present blood for atonement. Now people either accept it or not.

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Yes, I do not accept your version here as shown in this section of your post and also noting that Leviticus 23:27-30 (Great day of atonement) links the "cutting off" of those who continued in unrepentant sin directly to the great day of atonement. The completion of the cleansing of the sanctuary is the last thing that happens just prior to the second coming and judgement at this time is already completed according to the scriptures in Revelation 22:11-15. So we can agree to disagree here of course.

tall73 said:

The cleansing of all the sins of the camp were the result of one blood ministration. And that already happened. But the people were cut off or not based on their response. The ministration for atonement in the sanctuary is distinct from the cutting off of those who reject that atonement.

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The blood ministration has already happened although when Jesus was slain as God's lamb for the sins of the world once and for all. No other sacrifice is required. This however only started Christs new role as our great high Priest of the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:1-25). According to Leviticus 23:27-31 ministration of the great day of atonement is not separate from the "cutting off" of those who continue in unrepentant sin as judgement takes place on actions that are happening during the event of the great day of atonement. The 10 days of Feast of trumpets was a warning in this regards for God's people to get their lives in order (Leviticus 23:23-27). I think between both our views why I believe it matters is because if we are now living in the great day of atonement and not seeking by God's grace to get our lives in order and we are continuing in known unrepentant sin after God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word we will indeed find ourselves with those who are to be "cut off" (destroyed) from Gods' people as shown in Hebrews 10:26-31.

Take Care.

tall73 said:

It is certainly a new thought to many that the heavenly sanctuary would need cleansing. But the Scriptures indicate they do.

Some explain it by making reference to the sins of the angels as well, but the type doesn't reference that, and no statement is found of it in the fulfillment either. Rather, it is consistently seen to be human sin that is impacting the sanctuary.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The author states the necessity based on the type. So whatever mechanism you have for the earthly would be related in some way to the heavenly.

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I have a very different view of the book of Hebrews which wouldn't support the idea of an actual Temple in heaven that would need to be purified.

But discussing that in detail would probably be beyond the scope of this thread.

Thanks for the explanation!

Leaf473 said:

I have a very different view of the book of Hebrews which wouldn't support the idea of an actual Temple in heaven that would need to be purified.

But discussing that in detail would probably be beyond the scope of this thread.

Thanks for the explanation!

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You may as well present your view. Then we can see Adventist Bible testing in action!

However, I would also note that the earthly was based on the heavenly, but the true sanctuary is described as "heaven itself":

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

In other words, when God said let them build me a sanctuary that I may dwell among them, the earthly sanctuary is a reflection of aspects of heaven, and God's throne room. To me the reality is where God dwells in heaven. I don't see that it would have to be a temple there, especially as there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem.

Adventists generally see a two part sanctuary in heaven.

tall73 said:

You may as well present your view. Then we can see Adventist Bible testing in action!

However, I would also note that the earthly was based on the heavenly, but the true sanctuary is described as "heaven itself":

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

In other words, when God said let them build me a sanctuary that I may dwell among them, the earthly sanctuary is a reflection of aspects of heaven, and God's throne room. To me the reality is where God dwells in heaven. I don't see that it would have to be a temple there, especially as there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem.

Adventists generally see a two part sanctuary in heaven.

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Thanks for the invitation! Briefly, I think the writer of Hebrews is using a style of logic that is unfamiliar to us in the modern Western world. In addition, he is using human terms and familiarities to describe spiritual realities.

I think the book of Hebrews is best used looking at the big picture. In the passage about Jesus purifying the heavenly Temple, the big picture is that Jesus is doing what the Aaronic priest did for Israel, but way better!

Thanks for bringing up the possibility that there is no actual Temple in heaven, that heaven itself is the temple being talked about. That would go along well with my overall view of Hebrews.

Leaf473 said:

Thanks for the invitation! Briefly, I think the writer of Hebrews is using a style of logic that is unfamiliar to us in the modern Western world. In addition, he is using human terms and familiarities to describe spiritual realities.

I think the book of Hebrews is best used looking at the big picture. In the passage about Jesus purifying the heavenly Temple, the big picture is that Jesus is doing what the Aaronic priest did for Israel, but way better!

Thanks for bringing up the possibility that there is no actual Temple in heaven, that heaven itself is the temple being talked about. That would go along well with my overall view of Hebrews.

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Part of the difficulty is we get a lot of info from Revelation about the sanctuary, which is a book known to employ apocalyptic symbols. I mentioned that in the New Jerusalem per Rev. there will be no sanctuary.

On the other hand reference is made to the sanctuary in various parts of Revelation prior to the city descending to the new earth.

the altar of incense

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

ark

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

temple filled with glory

Rev 15:7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,
Rev 15:8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

And in chapter 1 we see lamps, but they are interepreted there as churches.

Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
Rev 1:20 As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

In chapter 11 this is specifically said to be in a temple in heaven, so it is not the earthly sanctuary.

However, in chapter 4 and 5, while still in symbols since it is apocalyptic, I think we get a slightly more literal picture. There you see the throne (which the ark seems to symbolize), actual cherubim or living creatures instead of artwork of them, 7 spirits of God instead of a lampstand, etc.

Rev 4:2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald.
Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.
Rev 4:5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God,
Rev 4:6 and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind:
Rev 4:7 the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight.
Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”
Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

If we read the above passages literally, the indication is that there is a heavenly temple, with all the same furniture. I tend to think of all of it pointing to God's throne room. But on the other hand, I don't think God's throne room is going away in the new Jerusalem, so perhaps it points to an actual temple, illustrating the plan of salvation, and mirrored to a degree in the earthly after all.

It is also possible the furniture is in that same throne room of Rev. 4 and 5, as an illustration of the plan of salvation. Peter tells us that angels longed to look into the plan of salvation, as well as people:

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.
1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

Either way the earthly points to it, but of course only as a shadow.

And yes, Christ's ministry is better.

Leaf473 said:

I have a very different view of the book of Hebrews which wouldn't support the idea of an actual Temple in heaven that would need to be purified.

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However you view the realities, the introduction of sin into the universe, by Satan and the fallen angels, and then in man, would call forth a response from God, as Sovereign over all.

Jesus spoke often of the kingdom of heaven. It includes the earth and everything else. God will remove everything from His kingdom that defiles. Rebellion against God is put down. But such is the justice of God that in the end every knee will bow, and every tongue confess. And God's love and mercy are seen in that God extends to human rebels the chance to be heirs in His kindgdom.

So while we think of things on earth as confined to earth, it impacts even heaven, and all the kingdom.

tall73 said:

Part of the difficulty is we get a lot of info from Revelation about the sanctuary, which is a book known to employ apocalyptic symbols. I mentioned that in the New Jerusalem per Rev. there will be no sanctuary.

On the other hand reference is made to the sanctuary in various parts of Revelation prior to the city descending to the new earth.

the altar of incense

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

ark

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

temple filled with glory

Rev 15:7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,
Rev 15:8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

And in chapter 1 we see lamps, but they are interepreted there as churches.

Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
Rev 1:20 As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

In chapter 11 this is specifically said to be in a temple in heaven, so it is not the earthly sanctuary.

However, in chapter 4 and 5, while still in symbols since it is apocalyptic, I think we get a slightly more literal picture. There you see the throne (which the ark seems to symbolize), actual cherubim or living creatures instead of artwork of them, 7 spirits of God instead of a lampstand, etc.

Rev 4:2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald.
Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.
Rev 4:5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God,
Rev 4:6 and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind:
Rev 4:7 the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight.
Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”
Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

If we read the above passages literally, the indication is that there is a heavenly temple, with all the same furniture. I tend to think of all of it pointing to God's throne room. But on the other hand, I don't think God's throne room is going away in the new Jerusalem, so perhaps it points to an actual temple, illustrating the plan of salvation, and mirrored to a degree in the earthly after all.

It is also possible the furniture is in that same throne room of Rev. 4 and 5, as an illustration of the plan of salvation. Peter tells us that angels longed to look into the plan of salvation, as well as people:

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.
1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

Either way the earthly points to it, but of course only as a shadow.

And yes, Christ's ministry is better.

Click to expand...

I think the book of Revelation is a great example.

John himself identifies it as an apocalypse, cluing in his readers that it's not to be taken literally imo.

tall73 said:

However you view the realities, the introduction of sin into the universe, by Satan and the fallen angels, and then in man, would call forth a response from God, as Sovereign over all.

Jesus spoke often of the kingdom of heaven. It includes the earth and everything else. God will remove everything from His kingdom that defiles. Rebellion against God is put down. But such is the justice of God that in the end every knee will bow, and every tongue confess. And God's love and mercy are seen in that God extends to human rebels the chance to be heirs in His kindgdom.

So while we think of things on earth as confined to earth, it impacts even heaven, and all the kingdom.

Click to expand...

I agree.

A side note: I believe Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven only in Matthew. Parallel passages in Mark and Luke have Kingdom of God.

LoveGodsWord said:

We are talking about the type and the anti-types. That is the earthly with the heavenly. According to Leviticus 23:27-30 those who remained in unrepentant sin during the great day of atonement were "cut off" or destroyed from Gods' people. For this to take place
judgement judgement must be included to know who must be "cut off" and who is not.

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Yes, we are talking about type and anti-type. But it is not just those who are unrepentant at one part of the Christian era who are cut off, but it is everyone who is not repentant that is cut off, throughout the Christian era.

In the type, since it happened every year, all the people of the camp would have an opportunity to participate. But in your understanding of the fulfillment the majority of Christians would not have participated.

But in my understanding of the type the once for all death, and once for all entry by means of blood, and the purification for sins, already happened in the first century. All Christians could then look to their High Priest in faith throughout the Christian era.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

The "cutting off" in the earthly type is therefore included in the cutting off in the heavenly and the investigative judgement decides this. Tell me who decides who was "cut off" in the earthly day of atonement and who does the same in the heavenly? Just the fact that there is a "cutting off" of those who continue in unrepentant sin shows that there is a judgment in both the earthly and the heavenly prior to the second coming. Although I believe God is our judge for both applications here who uses man in the earthly and as God himself will be our judge in the heavenly.

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The high priest would not know who was not participating in the earthly. He was presenting blood for the whole camp. Though he may well be involved in the cutting off after coming out of the sanctuary.

Now the human limitations of an earthly high priest are not a limitation on the type itself. It could still picture judgment in the sanctuary. But that is not what the type says.

In Hebrews 9:7 it summarizes the type of what the high priest did in the sanctuary, and it is not investigating cases, but presenting blood for the cleansing of sins.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The cutting off happens later.

Kind of, although according to the scriptures, the initial blood work happens in the court yard outside of the holy place as shown in the diagram below. The "final atonement" or great day of atonement happens in the most holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary.

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That depends on the type of sin offering. Sin offerings for a sin of the whole camp, or the anointed priest went into the sanctuary itself. But certainly Jesus is sinless, so that wouldn't apply in the fulfillment, and it is unclear how all believers could sin a single sin in the fulfillment.

Most sin offerings were limited to ministering the blood at the altar, after the animal was killed at the entrance. But even then there was blood ministration by the priest required to bring atonement, not just the death.

And yes, the ministering of the blood on the Day of Atonement involved blood being brought into the Most Holy Place.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.

But it also was used to make purification for the golden altar of incense during the same atonement once per year:

Exo 30:1 “You shall make an altar on which to burn incense; you shall make it of acacia wood.
Exo 30:2 A cubit shall be its length, and a cubit its breadth. It shall be square, and two cubits shall be its height. Its horns shall be of one piece with it.
Exo 30:3 You shall overlay it with pure gold, its top and around its sides and its horns. And you shall make a molding of gold around it.
Exo 30:4 And you shall make two golden rings for it. Under its molding on two opposite sides of it you shall make them, and they shall be holders for poles with which to carry it.
Exo 30:5 You shall make the poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold.
Exo 30:6 And you shall put it in front of the veil that is above the ark of the testimony, in front of the mercy seat that is above the testimony, where I will meet with you.
Exo 30:7 And Aaron shall burn fragrant incense on it. Every morning when he dresses the lamps he shall burn it,
Exo 30:8 and when Aaron sets up the lamps at twilight, he shall burn it, a regular incense offering before the LORD throughout your generations.
Exo 30:9 You shall not offer unauthorized incense on it, or a burnt offering, or a grain offering, and you shall not pour a drink offering on it.
Exo 30:10 Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year. With the blood of the sin offering of atonement he shall make atonement for it once in the year throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD.”

The inauguration also involved the whole sanctuary.

But the fulfillment shows that Jesus entered once for all. He entered by means of blood. And this entry secured eternal redemption.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

This entry into God's presence by means of blood is Jesus' presentation of Himself, the completed sacrifice. He is not bringing in jars of blood, but Himself, the completed sacrifice, now living. This is again referenced in the context of the cleansing of the heavenly things:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Jesus already entered once for all, by means of blood. And this ministration made purification for sins:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

According to Leviticus 23:27-31 ministration of the great day of atonement is not separate from the "cutting off" of those who continue in unrepentant sin as judgement takes place on actions that are happening during the event of the great day of atonement.

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The cutting off happens after the high priest comes out. And it is based on what the response was while He made the purification in the sanctuary. The type does not picture the high priest investigating cases while in the sanctuary, but shows Him presenting blood.

The presentation was for making atonement. Jesus did that in the first century. But the response of the people is still playing out until He leaves the sanctuary, and then the cutting off occurs.

And as I mentioned, the scapegoat portion, which is not explained in the NT that I am aware of, happens when He leaves the sanctuary. So the timing still fits that of the type, other than the events that only happened once for all. The death and the entry once for all by blood which obtained eternal redemption, and the purification for sins, only happened once. And they were stated as past tense by the author of Hebrews.

The 10 days of Feast of trumpets was a warning in this regards for God's people to get their lives in order (Leviticus 23:23-27). I think between both our views why I believe it matters is because if we are now living in the great day of atonement and not seeking by God's grace to get our lives in order and we are continuing in known unrepentant sin after God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word we will indeed find ourselves with those who are to be "cut off" (destroyed) from Gods' people as shown in Hebrews 10:26-31.
Take Care.

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All Christians who did not seek God's grace and continued in known unrepentant sin were cut off, even before 1844. In fact the author of Hebrews is writing the letter specifically because some were in danger of falling away:

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
Heb 10:33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
Heb 10:34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
Heb 10:35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
Heb 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
Heb 10:37 For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Leaf473 said:

I agree.

A side note: I believe Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven only in Matthew. Parallel passages in Mark and Luke have Kingdom of God.

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Yes, kingdom of God is used in parallel passages.

You also have Jesus telling Pilate in John that His kingdom is not of this world (not of earthly authority or source), and that Pilate's authority is only subordinate authority, given from above.

Joh 18:33 So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?”
Joh 18:34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?”
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?”
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
Joh 18:37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

Joh 19:10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?”
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

And there are hints of it in Luke, etc.

Luk 19:11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately.
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

Leaf473 said:

I think the book of Revelation is a great example.

John himself identifies it as an apocalypse, cluing in his readers that it's not to be taken literally imo.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is in symbols. But even symbols have meaning. And after the fact I am sure we will see many things were symbolic, but some were probably close to literal as well. It also uses hundreds of allusions to OT texts, which is part of the message.

tall73 said:

Yes, we are talking about type and anti-type. But it is not just those who are unrepentant at one part of the Christian era who are cut off, but it is everyone who is not repentant that is cut off, throughout the Christian era.

In the type, since it happened every year, all the people of the camp would have an opportunity to participate. But in your understanding of the fulfillment the majority of Christians would not have participated.

But in my understanding of the type the once for all death, and once for all entry by means of blood, and the purification for sins, already happened in the first century. All Christians could then look to their High Priest in faith throughout the Christian era.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.



The high priest would not know who was not participating in the earthly. He was presenting blood for the whole camp. Though he may well be involved in the cutting off after coming out of the sanctuary.

Now the human limitations of an earthly high priest are not a limitation on the type itself. It could still picture judgment in the sanctuary. But that is not what the type says.

In Hebrews 9:7 it summarizes the type of what the high priest did in the sanctuary, and it is not investigating cases, but presenting blood for the cleansing of sins.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The cutting off happens later.



That depends on the type of sin offering. Sin offerings for a sin of the whole camp, or the anointed priest went into the sanctuary itself. But certainly Jesus is sinless, so that wouldn't apply in the fulfillment, and it is unclear how all believers could sin a single sin in the fulfillment.

Most sin offerings were limited to ministering the blood at the altar, after the animal was killed at the entrance. But even then there was blood ministration by the priest required to bring atonement, not just the death.

And yes, the ministering of the blood on the Day of Atonement involved blood being brought into the Most Holy Place.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.

But it also was used to make purification for the golden altar of incense during the same atonement once per year:

Exo 30:1 “You shall make an altar on which to burn incense; you shall make it of acacia wood.
Exo 30:2 A cubit shall be its length, and a cubit its breadth. It shall be square, and two cubits shall be its height. Its horns shall be of one piece with it.
Exo 30:3 You shall overlay it with pure gold, its top and around its sides and its horns. And you shall make a molding of gold around it.
Exo 30:4 And you shall make two golden rings for it. Under its molding on two opposite sides of it you shall make them, and they shall be holders for poles with which to carry it.
Exo 30:5 You shall make the poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold.
Exo 30:6 And you shall put it in front of the veil that is above the ark of the testimony, in front of the mercy seat that is above the testimony, where I will meet with you.
Exo 30:7 And Aaron shall burn fragrant incense on it. Every morning when he dresses the lamps he shall burn it,
Exo 30:8 and when Aaron sets up the lamps at twilight, he shall burn it, a regular incense offering before the LORD throughout your generations.
Exo 30:9 You shall not offer unauthorized incense on it, or a burnt offering, or a grain offering, and you shall not pour a drink offering on it.
Exo 30:10 Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year. With the blood of the sin offering of atonement he shall make atonement for it once in the year throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD.”

The inauguration also involved the whole sanctuary.

But the fulfillment shows that Jesus entered once for all. He entered by means of blood. And this entry secured eternal redemption.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

This entry into God's presence by means of blood is Jesus' presentation of Himself, the completed sacrifice. He is not bringing in jars of blood, but Himself, the completed sacrifice, now living. This is again referenced in the context of the cleansing of the heavenly things:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Jesus already entered once for all, by means of blood. And this ministration made purification for sins:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high




The cutting off happens after the high priest comes out. And it is based on what the response was while He made the purification in the sanctuary. The type does not picture the high priest investigating cases while in the sanctuary, but shows Him presenting blood.

The presentation was for making atonement. Jesus did that in the first century. But the response of the people is still playing out until He leaves the sanctuary, and then the cutting off occurs.

And as I mentioned, the scapegoat portion, which is not explained in the NT that I am aware of, happens when He leaves the sanctuary. So the timing still fits that of the type, other than the events that only happened once for all. The death and the entry once for all by blood which obtained eternal redemption, and the purification for sins, only happened once. And they were stated as past tense by the author of Hebrews.



All Christians who did not seek God's grace and continued in known unrepentant sin were cut off, even before 1844. In fact the author of Hebrews is writing the letter specifically because some were in danger of falling away:

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
Heb 10:33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
Heb 10:34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
Heb 10:35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
Heb 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
Heb 10:37 For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

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This does not really address much in the post you are quoting from and there is not a single scripture that you have provided that addresses anything in the post you are quoting from as the emphasis of my posts are on the judgment prior to the second coming and application to the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary and the removal of all sin from God's presence just prior to the second coming. Also, my application of the cleansing of the Sanctuary is to the judgement of the house of God not unbelievers who were never a part of God's people so applying this to unbelievers is not biblical. "Judgement must begin with the house of God" - 1 Peter 4:17. No one is arguing that Christ sacrifice and blood offering is not once and for all. I think I stated this earlier. I have to go out now so I will see if I get some time a little latter.

Take Care

LoveGodsWord said:

This does not really address much in the post you are quoting from and there is not a single scripture that you have provided that addresses anything in the post you are quoting from as the emphasis of my posts are on the judgment prior to the second coming and application to the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary and the removal of all sin from God's presence.

Take Care

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Actually, it does relate to what I quoted from. All are cut off if they did not have faith. And I quoted from Hebrews to establish that.

The act of the high priest in the sanctuary is to make atonement by blood, not investigate cases. And I posted texts to show that Jesus did that.

Here is what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement:

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

And here is the summary of what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the day of atonement in the type by the author of Hebrews:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.


None of those depict the high priest investigating individual cases while in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

We both noted that the people who did not afflict themselves are cut off AFTER the high priest left the sanctuary.

Adventists have changed the type in regards to the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary. He offered blood for atonement, not review individual cases.

And Jesus offered this blood for atonement in the first century. Every Christian then has had the opportunity to look to this work in faith.

Leaf473 said:

What happened to the heavenly sanctuary to make it unclean such that it needed to be cleansed?

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Since Bob has been away apparently, I will post comments from Ellen White to explain the Adventist view on this question:

As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin-offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ. 4SP pg. 266

The sins of Israel were thus transferred to the sanctuary, and a special work became necessary for their removal. God commanded that an atonement be made for each of the [419] sacred apartments. "He shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness." An atonement was also to be made for the altar, to "cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel." Leviticus 16:16, 19. {GC 418.2}

Important truths concerning the atonement are taught by the typical service. A substitute was accepted in the sinner's stead; but the sin was not canceled by the blood of the victim. A means was thus provided by which it was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. {GC 420.1}

And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by [422] the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation—a work of judgment. {GC 421.3}

Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming. {GC 422.1}

You can read more in context here if you like:

The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 23: What Is the Sanctuary?

The Adventist view sees sin transferred to the sanctuary by the sin offering. It is thus removed from the person, but transferred to the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement when it is cleansed.

Ellen White said that Jesus' blood transferred sin to the heavenly sanctuary.

I strongly disagree that the blood of Jesus transferred sin to the sanctuary.

tall73 said:

Actually, it does relate to what I quoted from. All are cut off if they did not have faith. And I quoted from Hebrews to establish that.

The act of the high priest in the sanctuary is to make atonement by blood, not investigate cases. And I posted texts to show that Jesus did that.

Here is what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement:

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

And here is the summary of what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the day of atonement in the type by the author of Hebrews:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.



None of those depict the high priest investigating individual cases while in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

We both noted that the people who did not afflict themselves are cut off AFTER the high priest left the sanctuary.

Adventists have changed the type in regards to the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary. He offered blood for atonement, not review individual cases.

And Jesus offered this blood for atonement in the first century. Every Christian then has had the opportunity to look to this work in faith.

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Actually no, it has nothing to do with what I posted earlier and I did not state anywhere that the investigative judgement was the role of the priest. The warning of being "cut off" is in regards to what is taking place during the phase of the cleansing of the Sanctuary not outside of the cleansing of the Sanctuary and I agree judgement takes place until after the Sanctuary has been cleansed and atonement has been finalized and the sins of God's people have been transferred to the scapegoat. Judgement therefore of who is saved and who is not saved is God's work. Hebrews 10 is not a reference to the "day of atonement" it is a reference to the covenants and those who continue in known unrepentant sin being in danger of the judgement.

tall73 said:

Yes, we are talking about type and anti-type. But it is not just those who are unrepentant at one part of the Christian era who are cut off, but it is everyone who is not repentant that is cut off, throughout the Christian era. In the type, since it happened every year, all the people of the camp would have an opportunity to participate. But in your understanding of the fulfillment the majority of Christians would not have participated.

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Thanks Tall, but no that is not my understanding at all. The whole sacrificial system of the old covenant points to Jesus as the promised Messiah and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; John 1:36; Hebrews 10:10. The whole Priesthood and earthly Sanctuary system also pointing to Jesus as our true great High Priest of the order of Melchizedek (King/Priest) *Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22 who now ministers on our behalf with his own blood that the Lord pitched and not man under Gods new covenant and Sanctuary made in Heaven *Hebrews 8:1-13. This is why it is written "Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

I believe that there is a difference between the earthly and the heavenly application of the Sanctuaries and the application of the great day of atonement under both the old and new covenant dispensation. The old covenant application for the great day of atonement and all the annual Feasts was yearly for all of God's people. The new covenant application of the cleansing of the Sanctuary and all the Feasts is not yearly as they all are one time events over specific time periods representing different aspects of God's plan of salvation for all of God's people of all time applied in the new covenant (e.g. Christ our Passover and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world; Feast of first fruits and the resurrection from the dead etc). The new covenants application of the great day of atonement being timed in the 2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8:14 And he said to me, To two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The application of "cutting off" here is for all those who remain unrepentant until the end of their life on earth (first apartment) or until the completion of the cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary (second apartment) at which time all cases are now decided for good or bad. His reward is with him (second coming) *Revelation 22:11-15. The Feast of trumpets which is the 10 day warning prior to the last day of repentance on the Day of atonement (Leviticus 23:23-32) and the removal of all sin from Gods presence were considered days of judgement in Jewish literature.

"In Jewish liturgy Rosh Hashanah is described as "the day of judgment" (Yom ha-Din) and "the day of remembrance" (Yom ha-Zikkaron). Some midrashic descriptions depict God as sitting upon a throne, while books containing the deeds of all humanity are opened for review with each person passing in front of Him for evaluation of his or her deeds. Rosh Hashanah is a day of rest (Leviticus 23:24): With some variations, the activities prohibited on Shabbat are also prohibited on all major Jewish holidays, including Rosh Hashanah. It is also characterized by the blowing of the shofar, a trumpet made from a ram's horn, marking the beginning of the Yamim Noraim, or Days of Awe. During the month preceding Rosh Hashanah, Jews are supposed to engage in self-examination and repentance, a process that culminates in the ten days of the Yamim Noraim, which begins with Rosh Hashanah and ending with the holiday of Yom Kippur. Penitential prayers, called selichot, are also recited during this period." - (New World Encyclopedia). The day of atonement therefore is indeed linked to judgement and the final removal of sin from the presence of God just prior to the second coming.

tall73 said:

But in my understanding of the type the once for all death, and once for all entry by means of blood, and the purification for sins, already happened in the first century. All Christians could then look to their High Priest in faith throughout the Christian era.

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This is not a second apartment application it is a first apartment application (the daily equivalent of the old covenant or the bringing in of sins of God's people to the Sanctuary to seek Gods forgiveness. This is not the same as the yearly cleansing of the sanctuary and the removal of all sin from the presence of God.

tall73 said:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

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I see this as the right hand of God in power and status not in static stationary position...

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Luke 22:69 But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Psalm 110:1 The Lord says to my Lord: Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Acts of the Apostles 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Hebrews 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven

1 Peter 3:22 Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Matthew 22:44 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet

Revelation 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Ephesians 1:20 That he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and set him at his right hand in the heavenly places

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Acts of the Apostles 5:31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

etc...

tall73 said:

The high priest would not know who was not participating in the earthly. He was presenting blood for the whole camp. Though he may well be involved in the cutting off after coming out of the sanctuary.

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God does however.

tall73 said:

Now the human limitations of an earthly high priest are not a limitation on the type itself. It could still picture judgment in the sanctuary. But that is not what the type says.

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Agreed, see previous section.

tall73 said:

In Hebrews 9:7 it summarizes the type of what the high priest did in the sanctuary, and it is not investigating cases, but presenting blood for the cleansing of sins.

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As shown through the scriptures earlier in Leviticus 23:23-32, the Feast of trumpets and the day of atonement were to be days of repentance and seeking God's forgiveness for sin. Therefore days of judgement and those who did not partake of it's requirements were "cut off" from God's people. No one is arguing that this was the work of the high Priest in the earthly Sanctuary. This is the work of God under both ministrations. Judgement takes place after the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of sin from the presence of God.

LoveGodsWord wrote: Kind of, although according to the scriptures, the initial blood work happens in the court yard outside of the holy place as shown in the diagram below. The "final atonement" or great day of atonement happens in the most holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary.

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Your response...

tall73 said:

That depends on the type of sin offering. Sin offerings for a sin of the whole camp, or the anointed priest went into the sanctuary itself. But certainly Jesus is sinless, so that wouldn't apply in the fulfillment, and it is unclear how all believers could sin a single sin in the fulfillment. Most sin offerings were limited to ministering the blood at the altar, after the animal was killed at the entrance. But even then there was blood ministration by the priest required to bring atonement, not just the death. And yes, the ministering of the blood on the Day of Atonement involved blood being brought into the Most Holy Place.

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Your only stating what I just said in the my post you are quoting from.

LoveGodsWord wrote: According to Leviticus 23:27-31 ministration of the great day of atonement is not separate from the "cutting off" of those who continue in unrepentant sin as judgement takes place on actions that are happening during the event of the great day of atonement.

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Your response here...

tall73 said:

The cutting off happens after the high priest comes out. And it is based on what the response was while He made the purification in the sanctuary. The type does not picture the high priest investigating cases while in the sanctuary, but shows Him presenting blood.

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No one said otherwise.

tall73 said:

The presentation was for making atonement. Jesus did that in the first century. But the response of the people is still playing out until He leaves the sanctuary, and then the cutting off occurs.

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According to the scriptures Jesus blood is for atonement. This is different to the the fulfillment of the true cleansing of the Sanctuary and the fulfillment of the great day of Atonement of Leviticus 23:23-32 and the investigative judgement of Daniel 8:14 And he said to me, To two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

tall73 said:

All Christians who did not seek God's grace and continued in known unrepentant sin were cut off, even before 1844. In fact the author of Hebrews is writing the letter specifically because some were in danger of falling away

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Agreed. The difference however is that the great day of atonement is the last chance for getting right with God as it is the place of the final investigative judgement before the second coming what His reward is with him and it is pronounced "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." - Revelation 22:11-15

Take Care