Adventist: pre-Advent Judgment out of "books" - Dan 7 and Dan 8

BobRyan · Nov 24, 2021

Jesus said in Matt 7 - "Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but rather he who does..." - there is a judgment before the appearing of Christ happens but it does not change a lost person into a saved person rather it looks at the fruit to see if someone is a born-again Christian or not (a good tree or a bad tree as in the Matt 7 teaching). We see this in Rom 2:4-16 spelled out in detail.

Note: "looking at the tree" does not change it from "good to bad" or from "bad to good"

Seventh-day Adventists affirm the Dan 7:9-10, 22 statement on judgment in heaven that is:
1. pre-advent
2. based on deeds recorded in books of heaven
3. occurs before the coming of Christ
4. occurs while persecution of the saints is going on
5. Begins after the 1260 years of dark ages persecution mentioned in Dan 7
6. Is the work of Christ (God the Son) and the "Ancient of Day" (God the Father)
7. Christ's ongoing role in heaven is that of our High Priest Heb 8:1-3
8. The sanctuary in heaven is original of which the OT sanctuary was a miniature symbol/pattern with its two phase function of "daily" and then "Day of Atonement"

God the Father comes in and take his seat in judgment, a court is setup and books of record are opened for review in judgment:

Dan 7 four empires

Lion: Babylon
Bear: Medes and Persians.
Leopard: Greece
Dragon/Iron-beast: Rome

Little Horn (11th horn): A greater world empire than pagan Rome.

Dan 7:

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

God the Son - Jesus as High Priest (Heb 8:1-4) - comes to the Ancient of Days - comes to that court in heaven and at its conclusion receives full control over the Kingdom:

Dan 7:
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Saints are persecuted until that judgment based out of records contained in books is completed "Judgment passed in favor of the saints"

Dan 7:

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, and before which three of the horns fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts, and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Saints persecuted for 1260 years (apocalyptic writing uses day-for-year)

Dan 7;
25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. (1260 years) 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

The court convenes sometime after the 1260 years of persecution - and all torment of the saints ends once the judgment is completed (passed in favor of the saints). And then we see Christ take over events on Earth.

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Rev 21 explains what it means to have judgment based on the content of books in heaven. It is individual... case by case, specific deeds. (As we also see in Rom 2:4-16)

Rev 21:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

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Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

Rom 2:
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

BobRyan · Nov 24, 2021

Christ is high priest seated on His throne - doing is work for us as our High Priest. He has been doing that - from His ascension into heaven to this very day - interceding for us in heaven's sanctuary which was the pattern/model for the OT sanctuary -

Heb 8:
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.”.

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Just as on Earth there are two sections to the Temple and TWO veils - so also in heaven those two sections, and two phases - the pattern vs the copy of the pattern.

Two Veils

1. “The Veil” Heb 10:9-22:, Heb 6
2. “the SECOND Veil” Heb 9:3

“SECOND VEIL” Into the Holy of Holies - MHP

Heb 9:3
3 Beyond the second curtain was a dwelling called the Holy of Holies. (TLV)
3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Most Holy Place, (NASB)

by contrast we have the first veil - entrance into the sanctuary itself.

“THE VEIL”: (His Flesh – His death on the cross). Needed to enter the Sanctuary

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The "veil" in Heb 10 - is stated as being "His flesh" - His sacrifice on the cross.

Heb 6
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often

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Each Phase takes its own allotment of time and space as we see in the case of Pentecost in Lev 23 - that occurs "on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4 and not simultaneously "on the day of Passover" or "on the day of first fruits" (called feast of unleavened bread).

Acts 2:
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out..

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BobRyan · Nov 24, 2021

In Dan 8 we have a review of the same torment of the saints as in Dan 7 -- and the same solution given in Dan 7 as "judgment" is called "cleansing of the sanctuary" in Dan 8.

All apocalyptic timelines

1. use day for year.
2. Are contiguous

Dan 8:

RAM: Medes and Persians
Goat: Greece
Little horn: Same as little horn in Dan 7

The vision begins with Persia in dominance - already established.

Dan 8:
2 I looked in the vision, and while I was looking, I was in the citadel of Susa, which is in the province of Elam; and I looked in the vision, and I myself was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.

The Ram’s Identity
20 The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.

The vision covers a period of 2300 years.

Dan 8
11 It even exalted itself to be equal with the Commander of the army; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was overthrown. 12 And because of an offense the army will be given to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will hurl truth to the ground and do as it pleases and be successful.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the offense causes horror, so as to allow both the sanctuary and the army to be trampled?” 14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be cleansed.”

All the bad things being done against the saints as predicted in the vision are said to be solved by the "cleansing of the sanctuary" in Dan 8, and that solution in Dan 7 - is called "judgment" which is "out of books" of record.

Rev 21 explains what it means to have judgment based on the content of books in heaven

Rev 21:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

BobRyan · Nov 24, 2021

The "Sanctuary is cleansed" in the Day of Atonement service described in symbols and types - in Lev 16.

It is a type for judgment - a day when the world is judged "Yom Kippur"

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the judgment on “Day of Atonement” – Yom Kippur
From: Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom

Judgment Day

“The Day of Atonement is the Holiest day of the Biblical year. It is a day of intense prayer, fasting and calling out to God for mercy and grace. It is a day for doing business with God. It is a day for coming face to face with God.

Yom Kippur comes just ten days after Rosh Hashanah. Ten days prior to Yom Kippur, the Torah commands us to blow the shofar on Rosh Hashanah. One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is as a warning that a period of judgment has begun. According to Jewish tradition, the Gates of heaven swing open on Rosh Hashanah. The Heavenly Court is convened on Rosh Hashanah. The Books of Judgement opened on Rosh Hashanah. The heavenly ledgers are scrutinized on Rosh Hashanah.
...

What is Atonement?

In discussing the Day of Atonement it is helpful to accurately define the word "Atonement." Contrary to popular Christian teaching, atonement does not mean forgiveness of sin (though forgiveness may be an aspect of atonement). It is from the Hebrew word kaphar which means, "covering".

Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom.

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It does not change a lost person into a saved person (as noted in the OP) rather it shows whether the tree is already "good or bad" Matt 7 - whether the person is a born-again Christian or not.

No wonder Dan 8 uses the "cleansing of the sanctuary" as the name of the solution to the same problem described in Dan 7 -- where Dan 7 says that solution is "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" - -judgment "out of books" that are opened.

BobRyan · Nov 24, 2021

some will differ with this doctrine - and I will try to summarize the "issues and answers" so a high level view of this can be seen by the reader.

1. Some will say - " Blood was not necessary to enter the first compartment"
Answer: On the contrary it has been shown that it is necessary for sin offerings made "daily" in the "daily service" - as has already been posted below - Lev 1, Lev 4, Lev 6, Lev 10 ... see post #9

2. Some will say "He already completed all the blood sprinkling in the sanctuary... Now He sits as High Priest"
Answer:
a. The work of the Priest (even the High Priest as we see in Heb 7) was to "offer up" sacrifices and offerings daily - (done once for all at the cross" and then to take the blood into the sanctuary either by eating the sacrifice (as Lev 10 points out) and taking it in - in the person of the priest, or by taking it in and sprinkling it (as Lev 6 and 10 show). That daily work IS the work of the priest "seated on His throne" in heaven.
b. The "type" "symbols" of sprinkling blood have to do with the "act" (the antitype) - of Christ Claiming His blood in our behalf for specific sins - as in the daily service. As we see in post #7

BobRyan said:
Washing and Sprinkling - in the daily service:

In the daily - we see that the sinner is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest - which is the daily service.

Heb 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (daily)

The "veil" in Heb 10 - is stated as being "His flesh" - His sacrifice on the cross.

Individuals being cleansed and forgiven as they confess -- that's the daily service - for the sinner confessing sins and being forgiven.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ... (daily)

tall73 · Nov 24, 2021

BobRyan said:
The "Sanctuary is cleansed" in the Day of Atonement service described in symbols and types - in Lev 16.

The Day of Atonement type showed the high priest in the sanctuary minister blood to atone for the sins of the people and to make atonement in the holy place.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

This blood ministration in the earthly sanctuary on the Day of Atonement, by the high priest, is summarized in Hebrews 9:7:

Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Jesus already presented Himself, the completed sacrifice, in God's presence for us, as the high priest did in the sanctuary in the Day of Atonement type, in the first century.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Jesus entered as High Priest. He entered by means of His own blood. Blood was not necessary to enter the first compartment as Hebrews 9:6 shows above. But it was necessary to enter the second. Jesus entered in once for all, by means of blood. This entry with blood fulfilled the Day of Atonement entry (and any other entry such as a sin offering for the whole camp, or the inauguration).

Just as the high priest would make purification for the sanctuary in the type, there was also need in the heavenly to make purification. Jesus did that. He entered into God's presence on our behalf.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Hebrews indicates that Jesus made purification for sins in the first century, before He sat down at God's right hand.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

He already completed all the blood ministration. Now He sits as King and High Priest and we come boldly to the throne of grace (parallel to the mercy seat), to find grace and help in time of need. Jesus ministers the benefits of His purification for us as we come to Him in faith:

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus' atoning blood purification was so efficacious that He made purification for sins for all time in one death and entry by means of blood into God's presence. And He opened the way for us to come directly to Him in time of need. The earthly high priest could only go in once per year, with blood, and then had to retreat. Jesus made purification for sins then sat down in God's presence. And He opened the way for us to come right to Him for grace.

BobRyan · Nov 24, 2021

tall73 said:
The Day of Atonement type showed the high priest in the sanctuary minister blood to atone for the sins of the people and to make atonement in the holy place.

Christ sits as High Priest - on His throne - doing His work as High Priest – even in the daily service.

Zech 6
12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.

13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."

Our High Priest is seated as High Priest - "at the right hand of the Father" Heb 8:1

It's only the daily service in the sanctuary model that God gives - where individuals appeal to the Priest (the one mediator between God and man - Christ our High Priest) and find atonement and forgiveness of sins -- individual by individual - interacting each day with the Priest.

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Lev 1:

2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When anyone of you brings an offering to the Lord, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or the flock. 3 If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without defect; he shall offer it at the doorway of the tent of meeting, so that he may be accepted before the Lord. 4 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, so that it may be accepted for him to make atonement on his behalf.

5 He shall kill the bull before the Lord; and the priests, Aaron’s sons, shall bring the blood and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of meeting (NKJV/KJV)

6 He shall then skin the burnt offering and cut it into its pieces. 7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, with the head and the suet, on the wood which is on the fire that is on the altar. 9 Its entrails, however, and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall offer all of it up in smoke on the altar as a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the Lord.

10 ‘But if his offering is from the flock, either from the sheep or from the goats, as a burnt offering, he shall offer a male without defect.

If any of you brings an offering.. if it from the goats... as a burnt offering

DAILY Service where Individuals receive Atonement/Forgiveness of sins

Lev 4:
27 ‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 31 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32 ‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering. 34 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 35 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

If any of you brings an offering.. if it from the goats... as a burnt offering

Lev 10:
16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!” 19 But Aaron said to Moses, “Behold, this very day they presented their sin offering and their burnt offering before the Lord.

LEV 6:
24 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 25 “Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘This is the law of the sin offering: in the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered, the sin offering shall be slaughtered before the Lord; it is most holy. 26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. It shall be eaten in a holy place, in the courtyard of the tent of meeting. 27 Whoever touches its flesh will become consecrated; and when any of its blood spatters on a garment, you shall wash what spattered on it in a holy place. 28 Also the earthenware vessel in which it was boiled shall be broken; and if it was boiled in a bronze vessel, then it shall be scoured and rinsed in water. 29 Every male among the priests may eat it; it is most holy. 30 But no sin offering of which any of the blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place shall be eaten; it shall be burned with fire.

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Blood is offered up on the altar of sacrifice - which is done once for all

Heb 7:
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,

But then He goes to heaven - starts up the sanctuary service - and begins the holy place ministry where the blood is being claimed for forgiveness of sins being confessed which results in cleansing the conscience as Heb 9 and 10 point out - for the confessing those sins.

Washing and Sprinkling - in the daily service:

In the daily - we see that the sinner is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest - which is the daily service.

Heb 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (daily)

The "veil" in Heb 10 - is stated as being "His flesh" - His sacrifice on the cross.

Individuals being cleansed and forgiven as they confess -- that's the daily service - for the sinner confessing sins and being forgiven.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ... (daily)

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2021

tall73 said:
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

He already completed all the blood ministration. Now He sits as King and High Priest

1. No text says "he completed all the blood ministration" -- that is your claim, not your quote of scripture.
2. Now "he sits AS PRIEST" refutes your entire point - because it says He is doing His work as High Priest - "Seated on His throne." - as Zech 6 says "a priest seated on His throne". The work of the priest in the daily is to sprinkle blood - to seal with the sin offering applied to specific sins. To interact with each individual case by case, sin by sin, claiming the blood of the sin offering in the sanctuary on their behalf.
3. What He is not doing is "offering up sacrifices" in smoke on the altar "otherwise would He have needed to have suffered often" Heb 9:26-28 (we go over this many many times and you keep leaving it out when trying to make that one point above)

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2021

tall73 said:
Blood was not necessary to enter the first compartment

On the contrary it has been shown that it is necessary for sin offerings made "daily" in the "daily service" - to be taken into the sanctuary and claimed on behalf of each sinner case by case as individuals interact with the priest -- as has already been posted below - Lev 1, Lev 4, Lev 6, Lev 10 ...see this post.

All offerings collapse into one sin offering.
All entering into the sanctuary itself collapses into one enter into the sanctuary -
But the individual interaction in the daily service -- remains... case by case, person by person, event by event.

BobRyan said:
Lev 1:

2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When anyone of you brings an offering to the Lord, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or the flock. 3 If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without defect; he shall offer it at the doorway of the tent of meeting, so that he may be accepted before the Lord. 4 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, so that it may be accepted for him to make atonement on his behalf.

5 He shall kill the bull before the Lord; and the priests, Aaron’s sons, shall bring the blood and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of meeting (NKJV/KJV)

6 He shall then skin the burnt offering and cut it into its pieces. 7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, with the head and the suet, on the wood which is on the fire that is on the altar. 9 Its entrails, however, and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall offer all of it up in smoke on the altar as a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the Lord.

10 ‘But if his offering is from the flock, either from the sheep or from the goats, as a burnt offering, he shall offer a male without defect.

If any of you brings an offering.. if it from the goats... as a burnt offering

DAILY Service where Individuals receive Atonement/Forgiveness of sins

Lev 4:
27 ‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 31 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32 ‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering. 34 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 35 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

If any of you brings an offering.. if it from the goats... as a burnt offering

Lev 10:
16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!” 19 But Aaron said to Moses, “Behold, this very day they presented their sin offering and their burnt offering before the Lord.

LEV 6:
24 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 25 “Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘This is the law of the sin offering: in the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered, the sin offering shall be slaughtered before the Lord; it is most holy. 26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. It shall be eaten in a holy place, in the courtyard of the tent of meeting. 27 Whoever touches its flesh will become consecrated; and when any of its blood spatters on a garment, you shall wash what spattered on it in a holy place. 28 Also the earthenware vessel in which it was boiled shall be broken; and if it was boiled in a bronze vessel, then it shall be scoured and rinsed in water. 29 Every male among the priests may eat it; it is most holy. 30 But no sin offering of which any of the blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place shall be eaten; it shall be burned with fire.

tall73 · Nov 25, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. No text says "he completed all the blood ministration" -- that is your claim, not your quote of scripture.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

He made purification for sins in the first century Bob.

2. Now "he sits AS PRIEST" refutes your entire point - because it says He is doing His work as High Priest - "Seated on His throne." - as Zech 6 says "a priest seated on His throne". The work of the priest in the daily is to sprinkle blood - to seal with the sin offering applied to specific sins. To interact with each individual case by case, sin by sin, claiming the blood of the sin offering in the sanctuary on their behalf.

I quoted where Jesus does sit on the throne as High Priest, and we come to Him for help in time of need. So that does not at all refute my point.

Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

And yes, we claim the blood of Christ. That blood was shed on the cross, and ministered to make purification for sins in the first century, by the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

He died once for all, and He entered by means of blood once for all, obtaining eternal redemption:

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Jesus is not sitting with trillions of jars of blood in heaven. He presented Himself in God's presence, the completed Sacrifice, now alive, specifically stated to be in the context of the cleansing of the heavenly things.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

So we come to Him for the benefits of that completed blood ministration.

3. What He is not doing is "offering up sacrifices" in smoke on the altar "otherwise would He have needed to have suffered often" Heb 9:26-28 (we go over this many many times and you keep leaving it out when trying to make that one point above)

I hardly left it out. He is not suffering often. He is not offering sacrifices often. He already made purification:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Jesus' sacrifice, like that of the high priest in the type, was an atoning purification for the sins of all the people in the camp, and for the holy place. Now we come to Him for the benefits of that.

He died for all, but not all accept it.

Lev 16:30 For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.
Lev 16:31 It is a Sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict yourselves; it is a statute forever.

Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.

Jesus accomplished this purification for sins in the first century, so that all who believe in Christ may look to His completed blood atonement in faith.

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Indeed, He doesn't suffer often. He suffered once.

He doesn't need to shed fresh blood every time we come to Him for grace and help in time of need either. He already made purification for sins.

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2021

tall73 said:
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

He made purification for sins in the first century Bob.

Which is not even remotely a message about sprinkling blood in the sanctuary - it is about his death on the cross in the first century.

The daily service with confession of sins and interaction with the high priest - person by person - did not happen for persons that did not yet even "exist" to engage in that interaction.

tall73 said:
He died once for all, and He entered by means of blood once for all

True that happened 2000 years ago. What did not happen 2000 years ago is daily service with confession of sins and interaction with the high priest - person by person - did not happen for persons that did not yet even "exist" to engage in that interaction

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2021

tall73 said:
Jesus accomplished this purification for sins in the first century, so that all who believe in Christ may look to His completed blood atonement in faith.

completed "Atoning Sacrifice"

1 John 2: "2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (NIV)

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. No text says "he completed all the blood ministration" -- that is your claim, not your quote of scripture.
2. Now "he sits AS PRIEST" refutes your entire point - because it says He is doing His work as High Priest - "Seated on His throne." - as Zech 6 says "a priest seated on His throne". The work of the priest in the daily is to sprinkle blood - to seal with the sin offering applied to specific sins. To interact with each individual case by case, sin by sin, claiming the blood of the sin offering in the sanctuary on their behalf.
3. What He is not doing is "offering up sacrifices" in smoke on the altar "otherwise would He have needed to have suffered often" Heb 9:26-28 (we go over this many many times and you keep leaving it out when trying to make that one point above)

Offer Often = "Suffer Often"

BobRyan said:
Heb 9: 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

tall73 said:
Indeed, He doesn't suffer often. He suffered once.

So that is why he does not offer Himself often.

tall73 said:
He doesn't need to shed fresh blood every time we come to Him for grace and help in time of need either.

True. Nor does He go back to the cross to get blood for each symbolic sprinkling done for each sin confessed and repented of - in the daily service.

1. Sin offering - where all sin offerings collapse into one.
2. One entry into the sanctuary - with all entry collapsed into one entry into the sanctuary

Heb 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.

Yet each phase in its own time and place... so then Pentecost did not happen at the same time as the cross, or at the same time as the "First fruits" or at the moment Christ ascended to heaven.

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2021

tall73 said:
Jesus is not sitting with trillions of jars of blood in heaven.

True - because as I said before in the previous thread "sprinkling blood" is a symbol - a "type", and the antitype for it - is Christ's claim of his blood (in the daily service for example) in regard to a specific person and specific sin.

1. The Priest/HighPriest: is a symbol of Christ our High Priest
2. The daily is a symbol of the daily service – first phase of Sanctuary service
3. The altar of sacrifice: a symbol of the cross
4. Angels as images on the curtain and the ark; a symbol for real observers in the sanctuary in heaven
5. Blood brought to the sanctuary (either by sprinkling or eating the sacrifice and then entering the sanctuary) – record of sin of the individual who is pleading the blood of Christ for forgiveness - Heaven tracking the person's claim to forgiveness for specific sin.

a. Christ in heaven claiming His blood case by case for individual sins for those who confess and repent

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ... (daily service work of High Priest)

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

========================
The literal blood of Christ did not change those who took Him down from the cross into saved saints at the physical touch of physical blood. It is what the blood represents that changes people.

tall73 · Nov 26, 2021

tall73 said: ↑

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

He made purification for sins in the first century Bob.

BobRyan said:
Which is not even remotely a message about sprinkling blood in the sanctuary - it is about his death on the cross in the first century.

Of course it is about blood in the sanctuary. Purification/cleansing did not happen just from the death of the sacrifice, but with the blood ministration. Jesus already did both by the time He sat down.

καθαρισμός is the noun derived from καθαρίζω. It is cleansing, and the verb is to cleanse.

Heb 1:3 ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ, δι᾿ ἑαυτοῦ καθαρισμὸν ποιησάμενος τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification/cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Hebrews tells us that this cleansing was already complete by the time Jesus sat down.

We see that Hebrews 9:23 stated the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things. And verse 24 shows the fulfillment, starting with "FOR....." to explain how the type was realized.

Heb 9:23 ᾿Ανάγκη οὖν τὰ μὲν ὑποδείγματα τῶν ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς τούτοις καθαρίζεσθαι, αὐτὰ δὲ τὰ ἐπουράνια κρείττοσι θυσίαις παρὰ ταύτας.
Heb 9:24 οὐ γὰρ εἰς χειροποίητα ἅγια εἰσῆλθεν ὁ Χριστός, ἀντίτυπα τῶν ἀληθινῶν, ἀλλ᾿ εἰς αὐτὸν τὸν οὐρανόν, νῦν ἐμφανισθῆναι τῷ προσώπῳ τοῦ Θεοῦ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν·

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Jesus entered into God's presence into heaven itself on our behalf. Jesus appeared, the completed, but living sacrifice. As we noted He doesn't bring bottles of blood. He brings Himself, and He already did that in the first century.

And that is why Hebrews 1:3 shows it as already completed:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

As you noted He already made the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for everyone, though not everyone accepts it. And He already appeared in heaven to present that sacrifice, and to make purification for sins, just as the high priest made purification for the sins of the whole camp. But only those who afflicted themselves were benefited. And here it is the same. Jesus made the provision for all sin for all time by His death and the ministration of His death in heaven for purification for sins. This is the blood work for all the various sacrifices in the types. And we now come to receive grace on that basis of that completed work.

Moreover, in the LXX type it refers to the αἵματος τοῦ καθαρισμοῦ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν "blood of cleansing from sins", which is used to make atonement once per year. It uses the same terminology as found in 1:3.

BobRyan · Dec 18, 2021

tall73 said:
Of course it is about blood in the sanctuary. Purification/cleansing did not happen just from the death of the sacrifice, but with the blood ministration. Jesus already did both by the time He sat down.

1. The lamb sacrifice was the type - pointing to the antitype of Christ on the cross - the once for all atoning sacrifice offered up on the cross, for all the sins of all mankind in all of time.
2. The blood sprinkling in the sanctuary was the type - pointing to mediation of Christ "claiming the merits of his blood" on behalf of sinners Heb 9 who appeal to Him in real life - not sprinkling literal blood on things.
3. The actual "blood work" of shedding that blood completed on the cross and Christ works in heaven as our High Priest "seated on His throne" as the right hand of the Father - Heb 8:1-4

Major1 · Dec 29, 2021

BobRyan said:
Jesus said in Matt 7 - "Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but rather he who does..." - there is a judgment before the appearing of Christ happens but it does not change a lost person into a saved person rather it looks at the fruit to see if someone is a born-again Christian or not (a good tree or a bad tree as in the Matt 7 teaching). We see this in Rom 2:4-16 spelled out in detail.

Note: "looking at the tree" does not change it from "good to bad" or from "bad to good"

Seventh-day Adventists affirm the Dan 7:9-10, 22 statement on judgment in heaven that is:
1. pre-advent
2. based on deeds recorded in books of heaven
3. occurs before the coming of Christ
4. occurs while persecution of the saints is going on
5. Begins after the 1260 years of dark ages persecution mentioned in Dan 7
6. Is the work of Christ (God the Son) and the "Ancient of Day" (God the Father)
7. Christ's ongoing role in heaven is that of our High Priest Heb 8:1-3
8. The sanctuary in heaven is original of which the OT sanctuary was a miniature symbol/pattern with its two phase function of "daily" and then "Day of Atonement"

God the Father comes in and take his seat in judgment, a court is setup and books of record are opened for review in judgment:

Dan 7 four empires

Lion: Babylon
Bear: Medes and Persians.
Leopard: Greece
Dragon/Iron-beast: Rome
Little Horn (11th horn): A greater world empire than pagan Rome.

Dan 7:

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

God the Son - Jesus as High Priest (Heb 8:1-4) - comes to the Ancient of Days - comes to that court in heaven and at its conclusion receives full control over the Kingdom:

Dan 7:
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Saints are persecuted until that judgment based out of records contained in books is completed "Judgment passed in favor of the saints"

Dan 7:

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, and before which three of the horns fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts, and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Saints persecuted for 1260 years (apocalyptic writing uses day-for-year)

Dan 7;
25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. (1260 years) 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

The court convenes sometime after the 1260 years of persecution - and all torment of the saints ends once the judgment is completed (passed in favor of the saints). And then we see Christ take over events on Earth.

====================

Rev 21 explains what it means to have judgment based on the content of books in heaven. It is individual... case by case, specific deeds. (As we also see in Rom 2:4-16)

Rev 21:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

From looing through your post.....the only person interested in what you are trying to say is YOU.

If you are suggesting Ellen Whites "Investigative Judgment" then you are in error as it is NOT BIBLICAL in any what!

If you are talking about a judgment after Armageddon called the Great White Throne in which ALL UNBELIEVERS of all the ages will be judged, then you are correct!.

Ellen White: Every individual MUST pass the Investigative Judgment
"How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the Judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days."

But The BIBLE says: Believers in Christ do not enter into judgment
John 5:24........
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Romans 8:1..........
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

According to the Bible, the Atonement was completed on the Cross. Jesus has already been judged and punished for the sins of the believer. While every believer will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive his reward (2 Cor. 5:10), there is no investigative judgment of whether or not we are worthy of salvation. We are made worthy by the blood of Christ.

ANY THING different than that is HERESY!

BobRyan · Dec 29, 2021

Major1 said:
From looing through your post.....the only person interested in what you are trying to say is YOU.

I leave it to the objective unbiased readers to see for themselves if I am the only one posting on this thread or if its having 670 views means "I am the only one viewing"

BobRyan · Dec 29, 2021

BobRyan said:
Jesus said in Matt 7 - "Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but rather he who does..." - there is a judgment before the appearing of Christ happens but it does not change a lost person into a saved person rather it looks at the fruit to see if someone is a born-again Christian or not (a good tree or a bad tree as in the Matt 7 teaching). We see this in Rom 2:4-16 spelled out in detail.

Note: "looking at the tree" does not change it from "good to bad" or from "bad to good"

Seventh-day Adventists affirm the Dan 7:9-10, 22 statement on judgment in heaven that is:
1. pre-advent
2. based on deeds recorded in books of heaven
3. occurs before the coming of Christ
4. occurs while persecution of the saints is going on
5. Begins after the 1260 years of dark ages persecution mentioned in Dan 7
6. Is the work of Christ (God the Son) and the "Ancient of Day" (God the Father)
7. Christ's ongoing role in heaven is that of our High Priest Heb 8:1-3
8. The sanctuary in heaven is original of which the OT sanctuary was a miniature symbol/pattern with its two phase function of "daily" and then "Day of Atonement"

God the Father comes in and take his seat in judgment, a court is setup and books of record are opened for review in judgment:

Dan 7 four empires

Lion: Babylon
Bear: Medes and Persians.
Leopard: Greece
Dragon/Iron-beast: Rome
Little Horn (11th horn): A greater world empire than pagan Rome.

Dan 7:

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

God the Son - Jesus as High Priest (Heb 8:1-4) - comes to the Ancient of Days - comes to that court in heaven and at its conclusion receives full control over the Kingdom:

Dan 7:
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Saints are persecuted until that judgment based out of records contained in books is completed "Judgment passed in favor of the saints"

Dan 7:

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, and before which three of the horns fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts, and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Saints persecuted for 1260 years (apocalyptic writing uses day-for-year)

Dan 7;
25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. (1260 years) 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

The court convenes sometime after the 1260 years of persecution - and all torment of the saints ends once the judgment is completed (passed in favor of the saints). And then we see Christ take over events on Earth.

====================

Rev 21 explains what it means to have judgment based on the content of books in heaven. It is individual... case by case, specific deeds. (As we also see in Rom 2:4-16)

Rev 21:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

In response to those Bible texts we can sometimes get this response

Major1 said:
If you are suggesting Ellen Whites "Investigative Judgment" then you are in error as it is NOT BIBLICAL

Your false accusation could only work if someone thought those texts above were all written by Ellen White - (someone you are inserting into the post - because she is never quoted in it other than your attempt to insert)

I assume you can see this detail as easily as I can.

BobRyan · Dec 29, 2021

Major1 said:
The BIBLE says: Believers in Christ do not enter into judgment
John 5:24........
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

That "Judgment" as in the action of "condemnation" or the conclusion of condemnation

This is judgment - as in reviewing evidence and reaching a conclusion

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

Dan 7:21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Rom 2:

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Adventist: pre-Advent Judgment out of "books" - Dan 7 and Dan 8

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