Faithful777
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Good that you want to defend what you had quoted, but it is not so final as you made out, any more, plus I can answer whatever you show, if I want to.
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Can Salvation be lost?
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Faithful777
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Did you not see anything at all, that through faith we see it all differently ?
What do you think God left man lacking in, in Israels case, they had no chance, no Spirit, now we are given what we need, but we need to have faith to see it, and as I kept trying to say, many are called, so many read these things wrong, but some read them for faith.
What do you think God left man lacking in, in Israels case, they had no chance, no Spirit, now we are given what we need, but we need to have faith to see it, and as I kept trying to say, many are called, so many read these things wrong, but some read them for faith.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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To all:
Denying that believer’s cannot lose their salvation really amounts to a person saying,….
Many who believe that a believer cannot lose their salvation will say that Judas was always a devil. But this is problematic at best because you want me to believe God handpicked somebody evil to preach the gospel, and to do good things towards others (Making that person appear to be good when that person really was not good). But the Scriptures say, what fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14).
So again, if one believes they cannot lose their salvation they are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality to some degree. For we need to confess of our sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of them (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1). For if a believer generally lived a holy life and yet they look at a woman in lust and they get hit by a bus before they got a chance to confess of their sins, are they saved? Many in the Eternal Security camp will say that this kind of believer is saved. But if a person can commit this kind of sin and still be saved, then they can commit other kinds of sins in gross amounts and still be saved. However, it only takes one sin to separate us spiritually from God. We know this by what happened in the Garden of Eden. The devil tried to convince Eve that she would not die if she ate of the wrong tree. But the devil lied and when Adam and Eve both ate of tree, they died spiritually and knew they were naked. They needed to be restored back to God through seeking forgiveness with the Lord and in trusting in Him by faith in that He would save them. But in Eternal Security, Adam and Eve would have been saved if they ate of the wrong tree in disobeying God. For if one cannot lose their salvation, then this would mean king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder (Which means that we as believers can do the same thing if such is the case).
Sorry to say this, but I think this kind of belief is not just unbiblical but shameful, careless and dirty in its entire content. Imagine a person who thinks he was already saved and destined to heaven no matter what he will do, whether he do evil or not. Remember what happened in LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009? When a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,
And in a post dated August 3, 2009, Sodini said;
After the horrible incident in Pennsylvania, Pastor Knapp’s deacon, Jack Rickard commented on Sodini’s death and said;
Kenneth Nally, another believer of this unscrupulous doctrine, committed suicide in 1980 after he was taught that even self-murder would not stop a person once saved from going to heaven.
I also remembered a certain time when I tried to ask a Born Again pastor who preaches about the assured salvation. I asked him, “Pastor. If doing good works is unnecessary for salvation so that I decided to cease from giving my tithes, am I still saved?” The pastor answered and said, “Definitely not, son. If you will cease from giving your tithes and offerings, you will become a robber, because the Bible said, ‘ye rob God’.” See??? Born Again and many Baptist and Evangelical pastors who hold this kind of shameful doctrine are just after to our tithes! They don’t care about our salvation. They don’t care whether we will become evil or not, but what matters most is our money. They telling their members that in salvation, good works are unnecessary things, except the giving of tithes and donations!
Source used:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY
Denying that believer’s cannot lose their salvation really amounts to a person saying,….
“I can sin and still be saved.” (On some level).
Many who believe that a believer cannot lose their salvation will say that Judas was always a devil. But this is problematic at best because you want me to believe God handpicked somebody evil to preach the gospel, and to do good things towards others (Making that person appear to be good when that person really was not good). But the Scriptures say, what fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14).
So again, if one believes they cannot lose their salvation they are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality to some degree. For we need to confess of our sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of them (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1). For if a believer generally lived a holy life and yet they look at a woman in lust and they get hit by a bus before they got a chance to confess of their sins, are they saved? Many in the Eternal Security camp will say that this kind of believer is saved. But if a person can commit this kind of sin and still be saved, then they can commit other kinds of sins in gross amounts and still be saved. However, it only takes one sin to separate us spiritually from God. We know this by what happened in the Garden of Eden. The devil tried to convince Eve that she would not die if she ate of the wrong tree. But the devil lied and when Adam and Eve both ate of tree, they died spiritually and knew they were naked. They needed to be restored back to God through seeking forgiveness with the Lord and in trusting in Him by faith in that He would save them. But in Eternal Security, Adam and Eve would have been saved if they ate of the wrong tree in disobeying God. For if one cannot lose their salvation, then this would mean king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder (Which means that we as believers can do the same thing if such is the case).
Sorry to say this, but I think this kind of belief is not just unbiblical but shameful, careless and dirty in its entire content. Imagine a person who thinks he was already saved and destined to heaven no matter what he will do, whether he do evil or not. Remember what happened in LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009? When a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,
“this guy” (Alan “Rick” Knapp) “teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him.“
And in a post dated August 3, 2009, Sodini said;
“Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for every sin, so how can I or you be judged by GOD for a sin when the penalty was already paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.
After the horrible incident in Pennsylvania, Pastor Knapp’s deacon, Jack Rickard commented on Sodini’s death and said;
“George is going to heaven, but he’s not going to get his rewards,” (SOURCE )
Kenneth Nally, another believer of this unscrupulous doctrine, committed suicide in 1980 after he was taught that even self-murder would not stop a person once saved from going to heaven.
I also remembered a certain time when I tried to ask a Born Again pastor who preaches about the assured salvation. I asked him, “Pastor. If doing good works is unnecessary for salvation so that I decided to cease from giving my tithes, am I still saved?” The pastor answered and said, “Definitely not, son. If you will cease from giving your tithes and offerings, you will become a robber, because the Bible said, ‘ye rob God’.” See??? Born Again and many Baptist and Evangelical pastors who hold this kind of shameful doctrine are just after to our tithes! They don’t care about our salvation. They don’t care whether we will become evil or not, but what matters most is our money. They telling their members that in salvation, good works are unnecessary things, except the giving of tithes and donations!
Source used:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY
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Faithful777
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Judas was predicted to betray, ( chosen for this the same as Pharaoh was chosen for his role) as soon as the sop is given to Judas, then the devil entered into him...
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
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Titus Dorn
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AMEN,
Excellent work! Beautiful teaching of the scriptures.
Every thought is perfectly according to Gods word.
You have great understanding in how our salvation is secure in Christ but forfeited by our choice.
That is how you rightly divide, 2 Timothy 2:15
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Bravo, brother, bravo. Glad to hear there are believers out there that understand salvation has to be nurtured and not a get-out-of-hell-free-card, irrespective of how you live after coming to faith.
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Your post is not very clear, but I deduce you're arguing that the saved cannot lose his salvation? That view is incorrect.
You also seem to question why we are having the conversation about the doctrine of salvation? If we can discuss other aspects of the gospel, why not salvation? I think it's most pertinent that we should have this conversation because it challenges all of us to reassess our understanding of salvation as a concept.
This thread enables us to evaluate the opposing argument and do a diligent search of the scriptures to either validate our position or accept that we are wrong. There is a great risk and danger of eternal separation from the Lord by those living immoral lifestyles with the delusion that they are saved. If this discourse causes them to retrace their steps, that would be a soul, saved.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Thank you. If you are interested, you can check out my post describing a more comprehensive picture of salvation at this CF thread here:
The Four Aspects of Salvation.
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So why would Jesus warn us about being cast into hellfire if we look upon a woman in lust in Matthew 5:28-30 if we can sin and still be saved?
So if a sin and still be saved type belief is true: Why would the apostle John warn us about how if we hate our brother we are like a murderer, and we have have no eternal life abiding in us (if such is the case)? (See: 1 John 3:15).
Why would the apostle Paul say that we are worse than an infidel if we provide not for our own if a sin and still be saved type belief is true? (See: 1 Timothy 5:8).
If a sin and still be saved type belief is true: Then why would the apostle Paul list various sins and say that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God? (See: Galatians 5:19-21).
In other words, your thinking is not in line with what the Bible teaches.
For God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). God’s grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).
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Please biblically answer the questions I asked ... and then I'll take a pass at the questions you responded with.
Who is not saved in spite of their sin ?
Is anyone saved because they have no sin ?
David ?
Moses ?
Noah ?
Peter ?
Abraham ?
Jacob ?
Anybody ?
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- Jul 22, 2014
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I answered your question with several questions.
But you appear to suggest or imply that not sinning now or not sinning as a way of life equates with a life of Sinless Perfectionism. It doesn’t. A drunk may join a drug program to put away his addiction to alcohol, but that does not mean he may not stumble on rare occasion on his road to recovery. But the point here is that he will recover, and put away his demon in the bottle. So when you look at the great men of God, you will see men on their road to recovery, and not men justifying sin and evil under God’s grace thinking they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus.
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You should be aware that this more nuanced view of the issue is not the general impression you give.
You give the impression that salvation largely hinges upon sin, ... when it really doesn't at all. Sin brings us condemnation ... and salvation was gifted to humanity to rescue willing individuals from the condemnation which sin brings.
It's clear from scripture that salvation is based upon God's love, ... rather than sin. God had every right to condemn every one of us ... for we have all sinned, ... but He loved us enough ... to give us the chance to escape that condemnation.
I would argue that our side of the salvation question ... is based upon the condition of our hearts. All that God asks ... is that our hearts are aligned to Him ... as His children. As long as our hearts are aligned to Him, He is content to keep us, as parents are content to keep even imperfectly aligned children. God's claim is that He is a better Father than any of us ... and none of us would cast out a child for committing an occasional infraction, so long as the child was making reasonable progress in shaping up.
Which is why I asked the questions I did. The scriptures are clear that everyone has sinned, so salvation must hinge upon forgiveness of the sin which separates us from God, ... which is, itself, ... an outgrowth of God's love for us. It is God's love and forgiveness which bridges the gap between His perfection and our imperfection ... and His love is solid as a rock.
But ... God doesn't force us. If our hearts turn against Him, as Lucifer's did, ... He will let us go.
P.S. There really isn't such a thing as ... "having a belief alone in Jesus."
Believing in Jesus carries a lot of giftedness, ... rebirth, regeneration, relationship with God, indwelling by the Spirit, sealing by the Spirit, etc.
All of this is gifted to us upon our belief ... to aid us in growing into the children God so desires ...
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Speaking of the heart: Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Paul said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus, let him be accused (1 Corinthians 16:22).
Jesus defines how we are to love Him, and Paul no doubt is not in disagreement with that.
So if we are not loving Jesus by keeping His commandments, we are accursed.
Just read the end of your Bible and it says this:
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15).
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So ... let's see how that works out in real life.
Peter loved Christ, I would wager. Peter cut off the ear of the priest's servant, in order to resist Jesus being taken.
Yet ... Peter denied Him ... and He said said that whoever denied Him before men ... He would deny before His Father.
Yet, after His resurrection, He specifically sent a message to Peter (and the other disciples) to meet Him in Galilee.
Having met again with Peter, Christ reaffirms the relationship ...
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Peter repented. Again, think of it like a drunk on the road to recovery but one day they will recover and overcome their sin of alcoholism. They will not always keep stumbling into committing horrible sins all the time. There will come a point where they will live holy and walk with God. Sure, they may have imperfections of character (like not listening well or something), but not all sin leads to spiritual death as taught by our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:22.
“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother
or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother,
‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the
supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says,
‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.”
(Matthew 5:22) (AMP).
or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother,
‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the
supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says,
‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.”
(Matthew 5:22) (AMP).
The words in blue above are “sins not unto death” because they are the kind of sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, but the words in red above is a “sin unto death” because it involves punishment in the afterlife in fiery hell.
So believers have to overcome sins in this life (at some point) that the Bible talks about that are attached with warnings of hellfire and or condemnation in the afterlife.
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Is it your claim that Peter's sin (of denying Christ) was not worthy of spiritual death (though Christ said that He would deny such as these) ?
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Believers must confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:7). So Peter obviously confessed (repented) of his sins to the Lord. In fact, he did so with tears. Later the Lord restored him as a result. So it’s not how you start, but how you continue, and finish. “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13). Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life (Revelation 2:10). James 1 says, “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).
The problem is that you cannot believe these verses (Unless of course you want to explain them in how they work in your belief). But I am not really expecting you to do that because that would mean one would have to re-write Scripture beyond what it says plainly.
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