The difference between quoting scripture, and the reality of how things are.

Gregory Thompson

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This might make a good discussion thread.

You know how when scripture is quoted as proof that things are AOK, in response to actual evidence that it isn't?

What do you think of that? Are there any passages in the scripture that address a similar issue?
 

Pavel Mosko

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Wow I don't think you can easily summarize in one pithy post so I will name off a few things.

The Seven Rules of Hillel concerning scripture interpretation are probably the best example of what I'm talking about. I got other little psychological and epistemological concepts to name out too depending on how things go (people's level of interest etc.). There is even things like the genre of scripture, and cultural differences of ancient times vs. times of today too.

The Seven Rules of Hillel
 
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Pavel Mosko

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There is also the issue of Reality. That we do not see pure reality but rather our interpretation of it. There are a group of people who do believe they see reality etc. but that is a very problematic place to be in (people are much more confident of their ability to interpret things than they really should be).

But this concept is described by the term Naïve Realism (believing you see the World, Scripture etc. as is with no filters). Paul's saying of "seeing through a glass darkly" get's at what I'm talking here to some degree.

But this kind of thing can be important when dealing with some fundamentalists and charismatics, some things in the Bible have a strong cultural and historic context that may not be readily apparent to some simply reading it without reading on the history of X.
 
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DamianWarS

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There is also the issue of Reality. That we do not see pure reality but rather our interpretation of it. There are a group of people who do believe they see reality etc. but that is a very problematic place to be in (people are much more confident of their ability to interpret things than they really should be).

But this concept is described by the term Naïve Realism (believing you see the World, Scripture etc. as is with no filters). Paul's saying of "seeing through a glass darkly" get's at what I'm talking here to some degree.

But this kind of thing can be important when dealing with some fundamentalists and charismatics, some things in the Bible have a strong cultural and historic context that may not be readily apparent to some simply reading it without reading on the history of X.
We enter into subjective reality the moment we speak, think, share or even experience it. Even if the source is athentic we cannot grasp it in its entirety and the result a subjective experience.

Countless times the disciples misinterpreted the reality in front of them and applied their own subjective truth which was shallow and missed the point. And it is their words we read that first went through the translators pen before it hits our own layer of subjectivity and our audience has each their own layer.

The moment ultimate truth takes on word, thought or "logos" it takes on limits because words are limited and words cannot be ultimate truth. Christ is the word, and his flesh had fleshly limits; God is impassible and Christ died on a cross. There is a paradox to an infailable logos.

Yet Christ overcame death and his flesh transcended these limits. This is what reassures me the words I read are more than words despite them occupying the same limits but the spirit may reveal them through the layers. In the end, my take away still can only be subjective truth. The irony is not lost on me either in that this very post inherits my flawed perspective.
 
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Fervent

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I'm a little unclear on what you're talking about...are you speaking of people who quote Scripture to claim their immoral actions are actually moral or of people who seem out of touch with the realities of living in a fallen world because they quote Scripture that point to the fact that none of this is catching God by surprise and that we should not lose heart because God knows what He is doing and things are going according to plan?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Unsure just what you are getting at. Is your example the question, or just one example of the title?

Scripture IS the reality. The things that are evident to these senses and our logic's apprehension are subjectively understood —they are not the reality.
 
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DamianWarS

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Unsure just what you are getting at. Is your example the question, or just one example of the title?

Scripture IS the reality. The things that are evident to these senses and our logic's apprehension are subjectively understood —they are not the reality.
God is the reality, scripture is a subjective example of that reality. The moment you put ink to it, it's subjective and this includes writting down our own thoughts. For example a diary is the subjective reality of our self.

"Yawheh" is a word and as a word cannot capture all of God since it has limits of meaning, language, and culture yet God himself has no limits so Yawheh as a name is subjective. Yawheh is the referent of the great "I AM", creator of all things, ineffable and limitless in all ways. That's the reality, Yawheh is just a word.

Words themselves are limited and we know this because of the million interpretations we get from scripture. Scripture is inherently subjective because it is words.
 
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Mark Quayle

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God is the reality, scripture is a subjective example of that reality. The moment you put ink to it, it's subjective and this includes writting down our own thoughts. For example a diary is the subjective reality of our self.

"Yawheh" is a word and as a word cannot capture all of God since it has limits of meaning, language, and culture yet God himself has no limits so Yawheh as a name is subjective. Yawheh is the referent of the great "I AM", creator of all things, ineffable and limitless in all ways. That's the reality, Yawheh is just a word.

Words themselves are limited and we know this because of the million interpretations we get from scripture. Scripture is inherently subjective because it is words.
The Word of God is not subjective. Our interpretation is not the words. There's a beautiful pun here.

Scripture is not a reference book.
 
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DamianWarS

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The Word of God is not subjective. Our interpretation is not the words. There's a beautiful pun here.

Scripture is not a reference book.
Subjective doesn't mean unture. Words are incomplete no matter who wrote them and that's the short of it.
 
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sawdust

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This might make a good discussion thread.

You know how when scripture is quoted as proof that things are AOK, in response to actual evidence that it isn't?

What do you think of that? Are there any passages in the scripture that address a similar issue?

Maybe you could give a real life example of what you mean?
 
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sawdust

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Subjective doesn't mean unture. Words are incomplete no matter who wrote them and that's the short of it.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

The written word is unique due to it's God-breathed nature and is not subject to man's thoughts. Even so, it is wonderfully expressed in that it does not compromise the individual personality of the writer.

The written word is not complete in the sense that it does not contain all that can be known, but it is complete in that it contains all that needs to be known for this life.
 
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DamianWarS

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2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

The written word is unique due to it's God-breathed nature and is not subject to man's thoughts. Even so, it is wonderfully expressed in that it does not compromise the individual personality of the writer.

The written word is not complete in the sense that it does not contain all that can be known, but it is complete in that it contains all that needs to be known for this life.
let me rephrase, words are incomplete, no matter who breathed them. but this doesn't mean they are not useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
 
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sawdust

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let me rephrase, words are incomplete, no matter who breathed them. but this doesn't mean they are not useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

"No means No" in any language. :)

It seems to me you are projecting our own incompleteness onto the word of God. The nature of Scripture is unique in any language however, the original languages are quite precise, far more precise than English.

Maybe the incompleteness you find is a reflection of your own life .... missing answers because you haven't found the teaching you need. Just a thought. :)
 
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chad kincham

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Here’s the deal, that secular people, such as doctors, and far too many Christians don’t understand.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things UNSEEN, Hebrews 11:1

We have no empirical evidence that our sins are forgiven and we are saved - we believe in and have faith that we’ve been saved based on promises in scripture.

Scripture also says that with the atoning death on the cross, Jesus purchased our complete healing, not just spiritual healing - and we believe that by faith - that by His stripes, we’ve already been physically healed.

And that’s what doctors and others who live only in the natural world with what can be seen and proven empirically, cannot fathom: standing on the promises and by faith believing they have what scripture says they do.

I’ve seen many healing testimonies where the doctors give bad news about a terminal illness or permanent disability after a stroke or other severe medical issue, where the spouse or parents reject the diagnosis because they are standing on the reality of the supernatural promises from God, instead of living only in the natural world that most doctors live in - and be told they’re denying reality - then the impossible happens that goes against everything the doctor insists is inevitable.

But it takes faith in those supernatural promises despite what the circumstances look like in the natural, to get the manifestation of miracles.

And that’s what those who live only in the natural world, and not Gods supernatural world, can’t understand.

This video is a perfect example of having faith in the face of a diagnosis of permanent disability from a massive stroke which destroyed a third of a man’s brain:


Maranatha
 
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DamianWarS

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"No means No" in any language. :)

It seems to me you are projecting our own incompleteness onto the word of God. The nature of Scripture is unique in any language however, the original languages are quite precise, far more precise than English.

Maybe the incompleteness you find is a reflection of your own life .... missing answers because you haven't found the teaching you need. Just a thought. :)
that's an interesting observation and no doubt true as I readily admit I have a flawed perspective. But now ask it again but this time to yourself about your view of scripture. I don't mean that as an insult but rather to encourage the discovery in yourself with the same challenge you gave me.
 
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sawdust

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that's an interesting observation and no doubt true as I readily admit I have a flawed perspective. But now ask it again but this time to yourself about your view of scripture. I don't mean that as an insult but rather to encourage the discovery in yourself with the same challenge you gave me.

But you're the one claiming God's word is incomplete which, effectively makes it inadequate. I am more than willing to say my understanding/expression of God's word is incomplete but that failing is in me, not the Word. :)
 
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DamianWarS

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But you're the one claiming God's word is incomplete which, effectively makes it inadequate. I am more than willing to say my understanding/expression of God's word is incomplete but that failing is in me, not the Word. :)
I never said that. That's what you interpreted, which just stresses my point more, words are limited and cannot grasp the infailible.
 
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RDKirk

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2 Timothy 3:16


The written word is not complete in the sense that it does not contain all that can be known, but it is complete in that it contains all that needs to be known for this life.

That is, all that needs to be known about attaining righteousness.

Scripture does not tell you how to survive in the jungle if your plane has been shot down.
 
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RDKirk

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This might make a good discussion thread.

You know how when scripture is quoted as proof that things are AOK, in response to actual evidence that it isn't?

What do you think of that? Are there any passages in the scripture that address a similar issue?

I'm a little unclear on what you're talking about...are you speaking of people who quote Scripture to claim their immoral actions are actually moral or of people who seem out of touch with the realities of living in a fallen world because they quote Scripture that point to the fact that none of this is catching God by surprise and that we should not lose heart because God knows what He is doing and things are going according to plan?

I have the same question about the OP.

However, I don't think people are "out of touch with the realities of living in a fallen world" when they state that "none of this is catching God by surprise and that we should not lose heart because God knows what He is doing and things are going according to plan."

At no point did Jesus promise us a rose garden existence in this life.

“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” -- John 16

During WWII, there was a journalist embedded with General George Patton's Third Army as they invaded Nazi-held France striving toward Germany. The war was terrible every day. Life was miserable. Combat was terrible. And General Patton was the hardest-driving leader of the Allied forces, constantly demanding much of his men.

Yet, the journalist discovered that Patton's men had the highest morale ("high morale" means to a soldier what "joy" means to a Christian) of any soldier's he'd ever observed. When Patton demanded more, they gladly gave him even more than demanded. Sure, they had their petty gripes about the trials of their mean existence in the field, but when Patton said, "March five miles today," they gave him ten.

The journalist asked them them, "Why is your morale so high when your general demands so much from you?"

Their answer: "Because our general is going to win this stinking war."
 
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