Who are these sinners that live forever?

Timtofly said:

The whole world has recieved this free gift. It was not sent to a certain percentage of the world.

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The whole world had their sin taken away, only people who trust in The Messiah has received and possesses God's free gift of Eternal Life, they are born again a child of God. Those are the believers who have the Holy Spirit.

So are you saying the whole world has received The Holy Spirit and is born again, a child of God.

Acts29 said:

After the Millennium,
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire,
After the Great White Throne Judgment,
After death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire,
After the second death,
After the new heavens and new earth,
After the New Jerusalem comes down to the earth, we read this:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Once death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, it would seem that death no longer exists and thus all living will live forever. First, how then can there be "murderers" outside the New Jerusalem if death is dead? Second, who are these sinners in the age to come?

Revelation 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Perhaps, this description can shed some light, though a bit controversial. Only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life may enter. This suggests that there are some NOT written in the Book but still live on the earth at that time though unable to enter the city. Does this suggest there are two types of "saved" peoples? One group written in the Book and able to enter the city, and another group not written in the Book and unable to enter the city?

If I may complicate the matter even further, at the GWTJ, ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) It appears that the "Book of Life" is not the same as the "Lamb's Book of Life." Or, not every person is judged that day. Somehow, people not written in the Book still exist after the NHNE.

We understand those written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the saved. We also understand the wicked being cast into the lake of fire, hell. But, there is a third group apparently. So, who are these sinners that live forever?

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You indicate "after" these things ( your list) when in fact none of these things have occured. No such third group exists. Blessings
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. "

Acts29 said:

After the Millennium,
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire,
After the Great White Throne Judgment,
After death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire,
After the second death,
After the new heavens and new earth,
After the New Jerusalem comes down to the earth, we read this:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Once death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, it would seem that death no longer exists and thus all living will live forever. First, how then can there be "murderers" outside the New Jerusalem if death is dead? Second, who are these sinners in the age to come?

Revelation 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Perhaps, this description can shed some light, though a bit controversial. Only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life may enter. This suggests that there are some NOT written in the Book but still live on the earth at that time though unable to enter the city. Does this suggest there are two types of "saved" peoples? One group written in the Book and able to enter the city, and another group not written in the Book and unable to enter the city?

If I may complicate the matter even further, at the GWTJ, ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) It appears that the "Book of Life" is not the same as the "Lamb's Book of Life." Or, not every person is judged that day. Somehow, people not written in the Book still exist after the NHNE.

We understand those written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the saved. We also understand the wicked being cast into the lake of fire, hell. But, there is a third group apparently. So, who are these sinners that live forever?

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Scripture tis clear that Sin and Death exist forever. They are NEVER eradicated. The Unrepentant will NEVER be free from Sin and Death. They will NEVER share in Christ's Victory.

Victory over Sin and Death is only and ever for those IN CHRIST.

Since we who are in Christ have Already come into the New Jerusalem City (Hebrews 12:22), and the as yet unrepentant are already here on earth, "outside the gates of the city, practicing their Lies", we can know Revelation 22:14 is describing a present reality.

As is Revelation 22:2
In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

If we say this is describing a time when all things have already been made anew, then there would be no nation still in need of "healing", however the text is clear, the nations, at this point, are in need of healing and the leaves of the tree are here for that purpose, which again cements this as a present reality. The leaves of the tree are, at this moment, healing the nations. And they can not fail (Matthew 16:18)

Likewise Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

The only people who thirst are the as yet unsaved, who have yet to drink the water of life, for "one drink and ye shall never thirst again" (John 4:14, John 6:35)
Again, this is clearly a PRESENT REALITY.

Acts29 said:

So, who are these sinners that live forever?

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They are outside of the heavenly Kingdom, the living (self aware) dead (cut off from all other life) in the outer darkness.

Acts29 said:

After the Millennium,
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire,
After the Great White Throne Judgment,
After death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire,
After the second death,
After the new heavens and new earth,
After the New Jerusalem comes down to the earth, we read this:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Once death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, it would seem that death no longer exists and thus all living will live forever. First, how then can there be "murderers" outside the New Jerusalem if death is dead? Second, who are these sinners in the age to come?

Revelation 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Perhaps, this description can shed some light, though a bit controversial. Only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life may enter. This suggests that there are some NOT written in the Book but still live on the earth at that time though unable to enter the city. Does this suggest there are two types of "saved" peoples? One group written in the Book and able to enter the city, and another group not written in the Book and unable to enter the city?

If I may complicate the matter even further, at the GWTJ, ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) It appears that the "Book of Life" is not the same as the "Lamb's Book of Life." Or, not every person is judged that day. Somehow, people not written in the Book still exist after the NHNE.

We understand those written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the saved. We also understand the wicked being cast into the lake of fire, hell. But, there is a third group apparently. So, who are these sinners that live forever?

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2 resurrections (groups), first one to life (eternal life -exist for eternity-receive immortality), 2nd to death (eternal death - destroyed - cease to exist for eternity - do not receive immorality)

It's really not that complicated.

Eternal Life or eternal death - and that is totally up to Jesus.

Records of everyone's lives are recorded in heaven and judgement takes place there before He returns ... the record of all lives are opened, when Jesus returns the 1st resurrection occurs and He takes the saved to heaven .... but that is not the full end. Those left on earth at His return are slain ... and the earth is in a desolate condition .... but it's not the final end .... the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) yet to happen.

Somehow, people not written in the Book still exist after the NHNE.

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no the unsaved dead will arise (from their sleep in the grave-in their mortal state) in the 2nd resurrection, and they do not live forever .... they are destroyed, along with satan and the 1/3 fallen angels ... never to exist again.

When Jesus returns His reward is with Him .... so judgement has fully taken place .... but full execution of His judgement doesn't take place until after the 2nd resurrection.

Someday He will look down at the earth and see this .... then He will return.

Revelation 22:12

11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” 12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

Like in the days of Noah ....

Genesis 6:13

New International Version
So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Acts29 said:

We understand those written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the saved. We also understand the wicked being cast into the lake of fire, hell. But, there is a third group apparently. So, who are these sinners that live forever?

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There is no 3rd group. All those not found in the book of life will have their part in the LOF SECOND DEATH. No sinner can live forever. This simply places them outside the city and outside the NHNE where righteousness dwells forever.

See these scriptures below...,

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.




“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.



And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”




Doesnt make any sense for the LOF to be situated on the restored NHNE where Gods presence will be.

2thess 1
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

jeffweedaman said:

There is no 3rd group. All those not found in the book of life will have their part in the LOF SECOND DEATH. No sinner can live forever. This simply places them outside the city and outside the NHNE where righteousness dwells forever.

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I agree. The verses in Revelation 21 is a just a way of saying that no such persons will be around at the time of the New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem.

Douggg said:

I agree. The verses in Revelation 21 is a just a way of saying that no such persons will be around at the time of the New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem.

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Yet in Rev 22, THERE THEY ARE, Just outside the City's gates.

Weird.

parousia70 said:

Yet in Rev 22, THERE THEY ARE, Just outside the City's gates.

Weird.

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You are very weird if you believe God would restore the heaven and earth..... and then leave the damned screaming in anguish for an eternity just outside the gates of our eternal home of a NHNE where that type of behavior should no longer be remembered no more.

Acts29 said:

Why do you assume they are in the lake of fire? That is an awfully strange way to describe people "outside the city."

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It's not strange in a book filled with symbolism. The New Jerusalem is not a literal city, it's the church/bride of Christ (Rev 21:2,9), so it's simply describing all of those whose names are not written in the book of life being separate from those whose names are in the book of life. Revelation 20:15 tells us that they will be cast into the lake of fire, so why would you think they would be anywhere else?

parousia70 said:

Yet in Rev 22, THERE THEY ARE, Just outside the City's gates.

Weird.

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You understand that the new Jerusalem is not a literal city, don't you? It's described as the bride/wife of the Lamb. That can't refer to a literal city. If you understood that, then you would realize that it's not talking about anyone whose name is not written in the book of life being literally in close proximity to those whose names are written in the book of life once the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

It's simply talking about the fact that those who are cast into the lake of fire on judgment day will be completely separate from those who inherit the new heavens and new earth. Surely, the lake of fire will not be located just outside the gates of a literal city on the new earth. That makes no sense.

jeffweedaman said:

You are very weird if you believe God would restore the heaven and earth..... and then leave the damned screaming in anguish for an eternity just outside the gates of our eternal home of a NHNE where that type of behavior should no longer be remembered no more.

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Exactly. That would make no sense whatsoever. Clearly, the lake of fire will be located in an entirely separate location without any view of the new heavens and new earth.

jeffweedaman said:

You are very weird if you believe God would restore the heaven and earth..... and then leave the damned screaming in anguish for an eternity just outside the gates of our eternal home of a NHNE where that type of behavior should no longer be remembered no more.

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Are you suggesting I take a Sharpie and redact that Passage from my Bible?

Seem your objection is strictly about the LOCATION of eternal anguish and screaming, and not the mere existence of it?
Out of sight, out of mind is it?

The fact that people languish and scream in agony for eternity won't bother you as long as you don't have to see it?

Spiritual Jew said:

You understand that the new Jerusalem is not a literal city, don't you?

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Of Course I do. You Understand we are already in that city, don't you? (Hebrews 12:22)

It's described as the bride/wife of the Lamb.

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Yes, which is the Church.
Ephesians 5:22-27
2 Corinthians 11:2
Revelation 19:7-9

That can't refer to a literal city. If you understood that, then you would realize that it's not talking about anyone whose name is not written in the book of life being literally in close proximity to those whose names are written in the book of life once the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

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Since, you agree that PRESENTLY, Those in Christ are NOW IN that City.
and Since you agree that, PRESENTLY, that City IS already come down to earth and is the Church, the Bride of the Lamb,
and Since you agree PRESENTLY those outside of that City are indeed in CLOSE PROXIMITY to those of us inside that City, and you agree those of us inside that city are PRESENTLY calling out to all outside the city who thirst to "come and drink freely of the warter of life", water you agree is available PRESENTLY, I'm therefore unclear about your objection to what is demonstrably a PRESENT REALITY you agree with.

parousia70 said:

Are you suggesting I take a Sharpie and redact that Passage from my Bible?

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No , just your understanding of it.

parousia70 said:

Of Course I do. You Understand we are already in that city, don't you? (Hebrews 12:22)



Yes, which is the Church.
Ephesians 5:22-27
2 Corinthians 11:2
Revelation 19:7-9


Since, PRESENTLY, Those in Christ are NOW IN that City.
and Since, PRESENTLY, that City IS already come down to earth and is the Church, the Bride of the Lamb,
and Since PRESENTLY those outside of that City are indeed in CLOSE PROXIMITY to those of us inside that City, and those of us inside that city are PRESENTLY calling out to all outside the city who thirs to "come and drink freely of the warter of life", again available PRESENTLY, I'm therefore unclear about your objection to what is demonstrably a PRESENT REALITY.

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We are not in that city now as it only becomes a reality on the NHNE.
Surely you do not believe that the restoration of all things is already a reality on this OHOE.

We are that city when we are fully prepared and clothed in immortality.

jeffweedaman said:

We are not in that city now.

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Read this very carefully.
Hebrews 12:22
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Go ahead and explain to us what this means, if it doesn’t mean what it LITERALLY SAYS, as I contend it does.

jeffweedaman said:

No , just your understanding of it.

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Well, if you’d offer an alternative understanding of that passage that you think could convince me to accept it means something POLAR OPPOSITE to what it LITERALLY SAYS, I’d consider it, but so far you haven’t.

But I get your struggle.
Whenever one’s position requires one assert a particular scripture must mean something polar opposite to what it literally says, that is a TALL order.
Take your time.

parousia70 said:

Read this very carefully.
Hebrews 12:22
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Go ahead and explain to us what this means, if it doesn’t mean what it LITERALLY SAYS, as I contend it does.

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Read on a little further and tell me what we do with v27.
Does not that apply to a future time? We have come but we have not inherited it yet as some created things remain to this day.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns us from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying,
“Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.
” 27 This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let’s show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.




Even though we are now seated in the heavenly realms we have not inherited it by being glorified to a body like his glorious body. We have the blessed hope of it until he appears in the glory of his Father to restore all things and remove the curse.

parousia70 said:

Well, if you’d offer an alternative understanding of that passage that you think could convince me to accept it means something POLAR OPPOSITE to what it LITERALLY SAYS, I’d consider it, but so far you haven’t.

But I get your struggle.
Whenever one’s position requires one assert a particular scripture must mean something polar opposite to what it literally says, that is a TALL order.
Take your time.

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I have offered my understanding in post 26. No 3rd group can exist post second coming.