Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

BobRyan said:

In fact that is true in all of scripture will all doctrine - we can find "more detail" on a given doctrine outside of "a single chapter" that addresses it.

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There are a few chapters where the Day of Atonement type is referenced. I am asking you to point out where you find your investigation of cases by the high priest in the sanctuary and you cannot find it in the type.

turns out... a lot of Christians claim Christ fulfilled the type of the lamb slain, the goat slain, the bull slain, the Passover, the feast of first fruits, the feast of Pentecost, The role of high Priest, the Day of Atonement.

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Agreed they do!

But they don't see that Jesus fulfilled the type of investigation by the high priest of individual cases in the Day of Atonement in the sanctuary, because there is no such thing.

There was presentation of atoning blood, making purification and commentators see that--except for Adventists.

That is not the part that is unique to SDAs.

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The part that is unique to SDA's is making up sin transfer by the sin offering, and imagining the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement investigating individual cases, instead of what he actually did, present atoning blood.

tall73 said: ↑

So you have to show what is in the type which you claim. And you have not.

BobRyan said:

Which I have shown you many times - in scripture.

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I notice you stopped answering actual questions Bob. You claim Daniel 7 is the fulfillment. So where is it in the type? You can't have a fulfillment of a non-type. And you refuse to answer.

Your argument that is of the form -- "only in Matthew can you find information about the cross" idea is totally bogus. We find information about the work of Christ and the future judgment in a great many places and it is not merely SDAs who 'notice' that the Day of Atonement is a day of Judgment.

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Yes Bob, you quoted Jewish tradition multiple times. Except they thought it was a judgment each year about whether you would die the next year. And they quoted Rabbis. This is a Bible test thread. And you have now made it abundantly clear you refuse to show where you get this investigation of individual cases by the high priest in the type. Because it is not there.

So you distract by mentioning gospel accounts, Jewish tradition, etc. Alright Bob, I accept that you have no Bible text that shows it in the type.

You can't have a fulfillment of something not in the type. That is just called a different subject altogether.

The point remains.

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The point remains that the Day of Atonement type does not show the high priest examining cases in the sanctuary. And if it did you would have posted it a long time ago instead of offering Jewish tradition to back your supposed-to-be Scripture point.

The high priest in the sanctuary on the day of atonement offered atoning blood.

BobRyan said:

Correction. Entry by means of blood was for the entire "sanctuary" entering IT.

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You don't need blood to enter the first compartment Bob. Hebrews 9 points that out:

Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The priests go regularly into the first section. Some of their duties there do not involve blood. In fact blood rarely entered there.

But the second you could not go in without taking blood. And Jesus entered BY MEANS of blood. He entered into the second.

And you already admitted He inaugurated, so His entry extended to the MHP.

1. Every service regarding the forgiveness of sins in the type began with a sin offering - which Christ did "once for all"

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That includes the Day of Atonement, because that includes a sin offering and atonement for the people. And yes, He did it once for all, and entered once for all by means of blood. He is done with that part.

2. Every sin offering / sacrifice included entry into the sanctuary either by taking blood or eating the sacrifice and so it entered in the person of the priest.

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Actually Bob the blood was only taken in for those with bulls. And the taking in of the blood made atonement in the holy place, rather than transfer sin.

The blood for the others, which did not go into the sanctuary. was applied at the altar in the courtyard. So blood of goats did not go into the sanctuary.

And in neither case did it transfer sin. Both those that had blood go into the sanctuary and those where the priest ate made atonement, not transferred sin.

Goats blood was not taken in except on the Day of Atonement and the inauguration.

And NO TEXT SAYS that the Day of Atonement service had even started at all at the writing of Hebrews.

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Of course it does. He entered as High Priest by means of blood, compared to the entry with blood of bulls and goats, and He entered once for all.

And you didn't even try to address Hebrews 1:3. He already made purification for sins in the first century:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

And NO TEXT Says that the daily service ended at the writing of the book of Hebrews

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The blood ministration ended before the writing of Hebrews and the author points out He doesn't have a need of daily offerings, because He did it once for all:

Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

And NO TEXT says Christ is not still functioning in that sanctuary in his role as High Priest

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Since I agree He is still a High Priest in the sanctuary, you are addressing a point not claimed. The blood ministration was already done. He still applies the merits to individuals as they approach in faith.

And NO TEXT says that inauguration was the first event that began the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 - in fact it was not any part at all of the Day of ATonement events in Lev 16.

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No one says the inauguration completed all the blood work for the sin offerings, or the red heifer, or the ratification of the covenant, etc. but those are all shown as complete in His one death and one entry by means of blood. And so is the Day of Atonement, because He made purification for sins.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

God's own statement is that there is a two-phase operation for the sanctuary -
1 The DAILY Service where individuals interact personally with the High Priest for forgiveness of sins case by case - daily. And receive forgiveness of sins.
2. The final Day of Atonement where there is NO individual interaction with the High Priest. It is a day of judgment as described in Dan 7:9-10 with Christ coming to the Ancient of Days in the courtroom of Heaven before the 2nd Advent.

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More like Bob said the above.

Daniel 7 does not describe the Day of Atonement. You have posted nothing that says it does. The Day of Atonement is described in the law. The high priest in the law in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement ministered atoning blood. He did not investigate individual cases.

Daniel 7 is not a fulfillment if there is nothing corresponding in the type.

The sin offerings during the year made atonement for people and for the holy place:

People:
Lev 4:34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

In the holy place:
Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.


The work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement also made atonement for people, and the holy place, by a sin offering:

in the holy place:
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place
people:
until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

They are all pictures of the atonement of Christ through His blood. They differ in scale.

Heb 9 continues to affirm the TWO Veils and TWO phase function of the Sanctuary in heaven and adds detail about the work of Christ - case by case, individual by individual in His role as High Priest which is by definition the daily service activity.

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Incorrect Bob, Hebrews shows that Jesus already presented the blood. He entered by means of blood. He entered God's presence on our behalf, in the context of the cleansing of the heavenly things.

And chapter 1 tells us right from the outset that He already made purification for sins:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

BobRyan said:

I have shown you in Lev where sin offerings were brought by individuals and included the sin offering of a goat.

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But you only got half of the question Bob. The text indicates ENTRY into the sanctuary by means of blood, compared to that of goats and calves.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

I already discussed in the previous post how "by means of" indicates second compartment entry. You could go into the first without blood. But the second you could not go in without blood:

Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

But the text also notes that Jesus' entry is better than that involving entry with the blood of goats and calves:

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Goat blood was only TAKEN IN to the sanctuary in the Day of Atonement and the inauguration.

You note that you found sin offerings of goats. Of course. But the blood only went to the altar for those, not into the sanctuary.

The entry by means of blood, compared to the entry with blood of goats and calves in the earthly type, indicates second compartment entry. And it was once for all, completing all the entries.

You are attempting an wooden-rigid interpretation with "goats"

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I am looking at what the text says, and what it compares it to in the type. And in the type entry with goats blood only happened on two occasions, both involving the Most Holy Place.

And it says "By means of". You didn't need blood to go into the first compartment. You did to go into the second.

And Jesus made purification for sins in the first century:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

such that Christ "The lamb of God" , and Christ "the Passover Lamb" have to be rejected since it must be "a goat". you are going wayyy too far in your stretching of that point.

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No indeed Bob. Those are not rejected at all. Jesus fulfilled all of those. But the text still refers to specific things as well that He fulfilled. It speaks of the blood for the covenant, the red heifer, etc. But it also speaks of entry by means of blood, compared to entry with blood of goats and calves, and that actually means something. It only happened on the inauguration and the Day of Atonement. And here it happened once for all, fulfilling all the entries with blood.

BobRyan said:

Which is a reference to all the entries for all the sacrifices

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Yes all the entries with blood, including the Day of Atonement. And Jesus fulfilled that and made purification for sins in the first century.

- (so the one sacrifice of Christ covers them all - both the sacrifices in the daily of which there are many including goats and bulls etc and also the sacrifices on the day of atonement)

stated a dozen times so far
1. All sacrifices collapse down into one
2. All Entry into the one sanctuary from the altar of offering - collapse into one entry into the sanctuary itself.

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All entries including the Day of Atonement which was fulfilled by the third century. And purification for sins was accomplished already in the first century:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

BobRyan said:

The point remains - it was one offering, and one entry for all of the offerings and all of the entry from altar of burnt "offering" to the sanctuary itself.

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All the entries through the entire sanctuary Bob, and into the presence of God, on the throne of grace, because He inaugurated, and He cleansed the heavenly things, and He made purification for sins before He sat down.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

If you didn't make the whole point of the Day of Atonement something you admit you cannot find in the type or the summary of the type in Hebrews 9:7 you would get it.

tall73 said: ↑

You claim Daniel 7 is the fulfillment. So where is it in the type? You can't have a fulfillment of a non-type. And you refuse to answer.

BobRyan said:

I have answered many times that same question and you are ignoring the answers -- here is "yet another"

The lamb is the type of Christ crucified - but where in the type does the lamb
1. say it is a Carpenter from Nazareth
2. Say it has 12 disciples
3. Say it resurrects Lazarus from the dead
4. Say it is resurrected
5. Say it is of the tribe of Judah
6. Say one of its disciples will betray it
7. Say it is tempted in the wilderness for 40 days

I keep answering the point showing that you yourself can't possibly take that line of argument for 'types having all details' seriously.

How many more times would you like to have this sort of illustration for that same question posted??

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Bob, I am quite willing for you to repeat as many times as possible that you think the Day of Atonement is about an investigation of cases, but that, for some reason, this investigation of individual cases is not specified in the type, or mentioned in the summary of the type in Hebrews 9:7:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

I think that if anyone did manage to read this far into the thread your repetition of how you cannot find what you claim the service is about in the description of the service in the OT, or the summary of it in the NT, will be instructive.

BobRyan said:

Regarding the obvious fact that symbols in type -- do not contain all the details of the real event "Antitype"

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Your whole denomination is based on something they claim the type points to, but never states. And the summary of the type does not state it either:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Since as was just demonstrated - types (symbols) do not contain every single detail of the "real event" anti-type to which they point.

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The "detail" that is not in the type--investigation of cases--is what you see as the point of the service. You think the whole point was left out? And a different point was made instead, about cleansing blood for atonement of all sins?

A rather simpler explanation is that the service is regarding what it claims to be regarding, which is providing blood for atonement.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

yet even in this case - there is a lot of agreement among Hebrew scholars about the day of judgment theme in the Day of Atonement. Which is not "supposed to be there" since in some sectors -- I am the only one that knows this detail about the Day of Atonement ...

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There is agreement from the sources you posted that it is from Jewish tradition.

tall73 said:

Your whole denomination is based on something they claim the type points to, but never states.

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This a key point in SDA theology, then?

Leaf473 said:

This a key point in SDA theology, then?

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Yes. It is how they explain their entire origin. The Advent movement (pre-SDA) started with William Miller preaching that Jesus' second coming would happen around 1843, later revised to 1844. This didn't happen. But Adventists explained that what happened instead was Jesus began for the first time to fulfill the Day of Atonement cleansing in the sanctuary.

They then later explained this as a review of cases. But the Day of Atonement type does not show a review of cases as Bob has now admitted a number of times. They just added to the type. And to explain that, in a thread on Bible testing, Bob cited Jewish tradition,because it is not in the type, or in the summary of the type in Hebrews 9:7.

The high priest in the sanctuary on the day of atonement made an atoning ministration of blood to cleanse the sanctuary and the people from their sins.

Jesus' completed His once for all death and once for all entry into God's presence by means of His blood in the first century, and made purification for sins. He completed that blood ministration that makes possible everyone's cleansing.

But Adventists twist themselves in knots trying to say that did not happen because they have applied that cleansing to 1844, and a judgment rather than a provision for sins.

Here are a few statements by Ellen White on the subject from a compilation, "Evangelism". She states that the understanding of the sanctuary is the "foundation" of their faith. If you want to read the quotes in their original setting the page links to those as well.


Evangelism

The correct understanding of the ministration in the heavenly sanctuary is the foundation of our faith.—Letter 208, 1906.

The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise, it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time, or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. All who have received the light upon these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. —The Great Controversy, 488, 489 (1888).

The subject of the sanctuary was the key which unlocked the mystery of the disappointment of 1844. It opened to view a complete system of truth, connected and harmonious, showing that God's hand had directed the great advent movement, and revealing present duty as it brought to light the position and work of His people.—The Great Controversy, 423 (1888).

As a people, we should be earnest students of prophecy; we should not rest until we become intelligent in regard to the subject of the sanctuary, which is brought out in the visions of Daniel and John. This subject sheds great light on our present position and work, and gives us unmistakable proof that God has led us in our past experience. It explains our disappointment in 1844, showing us that the sanctuary to be cleansed was not the earth, as we had supposed, but that Christ then entered into the most holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and is there performing the closing work of His priestly office, in fulfillment of the words of the angel to the prophet Daniel, “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Our faith in reference to the messages of the first, second, and third angels was correct. The great waymarks we have passed are immovable. Although the hosts of hell may try to tear them from their foundation, and triumph in the thought that they have succeeded, yet they do not succeed. These pillars of truth stand firm as the eternal hills, unmoved by all the efforts of men combined with those of Satan and his host. We can learn much, and should be constantly searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so. God's people are now to have their eyes fixed on the heavenly sanctuary, where the final ministration of our great High Priest in the work of the judgment is going forward,—where He is interceding for His people.—The Review and Herald, November 27, 1883.

BobRyan said:

We never state that types and symbols include every last detail in the "literal event" that they are pointing to. Neither does any Bible scholar known to mankind.

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Bob, you totally change the meaning of the type.

It was cleansing ministration of blood, not investigation of each case. That is why you can't find the investigation of each case in the type. It wasn't there. And that was not the purpose.

That is why only the Adventists teach this. Because it is all a rationalization of 1844, and a denial of Jesus' full atonement, done for us.

Leaf473 said:

This a key point in SDA theology, then?

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If you would like an assessment of it by a non-Adventist who was familiar with the topic, I will refer you to Donald Barnhouse. In the 1950's cult researcher Walter Martin worked with Donald Barnhouse at Eternity Magazine, and engaged in discussions with Seventh-day Adventist leadership. Martin and others had previously classified Adventists as a cult. However, after dialogue with church leaders both Martin and Barnhouse came to accept that Adventists were not a cult. However, they did not think too highly of the Adventist sanctuary doctrine. Barnhouse's expresses an opinion that is held by a number of non-Adventists:

https://www.trsc.today/php/Articles/Eternity Magaine Articles-Barnhouse & Martin 1957-marked.pdf

In their disappointment little segments of these disillusioned people drew together. One of the segments kept Saturday as the Sabbath. Still another of the segments believed in conditional immortality and soulsleeping, and a third segment fell upon the doctrine of "the investigative judgment." The latter doctrine, to me, is the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history!

Okay, so this may seem like a total noob question,

The recent pages seem to be talking a lot about a sanctuary in heaven being cleansed and a subsequent investigative judgment.
What happened to the heavenly sanctuary to make it unclean such that it needed to be cleansed?

Leaf473 said:

What happened to the heavenly sanctuary to make it unclean such that it needed to be cleansed?

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I will let Bob explain the Adventist view on that.

As far as my view, in the Garden of Eden there was no need for a sanctuary. Adam spoke face to face with God in the garden. And in the New Jerusalem there is no need of a temple either, because the Lamb is the sanctuary.

God told Israel to build Him a sanctuary that He might dwell among them. We know that the earthly is a shadow of the heavenly, the true.

Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.
Exo 25:9 Exactly as I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.

But unlike Adam in the garden, now man cannot just go immediately into God's presence. The sanctuary was needed for Israel so that they could approach a holy God, and have their sin and uncleanness removed and atoned for.

Not anyone could go in. Only the priests could go into the first compartment, and only the high priest, once a year, with blood, and burning incense, and wearing the right garment, and approaching in the prescribed manner could go into the second.

Sin is pictured as contaminating things around it. The sanctuary is defiled by being in the midst of an unclean, sinful people. This is stated in the Day of Atonement service:

Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Sin and uncleanness were to be kept away from the sanctuary:

Lev 22:3 Say unto them, Whosoever he be of all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, that soul shall be cut off from my presence: I am the LORD.
Lev 22:4 What man soever of the seed of Aaron is a leper, or hath a running issue; he shall not eat of the holy things, until he be clean. And whoso toucheth any thing that is unclean by the dead, or a man whose seed goeth from him;
Lev 22:5 Or whosoever toucheth any creeping thing, whereby he may be made unclean, or a man of whom he may take uncleanness, whatsoever uncleanness he hath;
Lev 22:6 The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.
Lev 22:7 And when the sun is down, he shall be clean, and shall afterward eat of the holy things; because it is his food.

Another example of this is described in the uncleanness that happened when a woman had an irregular issue of blood.

Lev 15:29 And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons and bring them to the priest, to the entrance of the tent of meeting.
Lev 15:30 And the priest shall use one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her before the LORD for her unclean discharge.
Lev 15:31 “Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst.”

Here it is necessary to remove her uncleanness so that she does not die in her uncleanness by defiling the tabernacle in their midst. She is to wait some time before going to be cleansed. And then the sin offering is the solution to uncleanness and sin, and there are various types spelled out for certain situations.

If a person does not repent, or does not submit to the sin offering for cleansing and atonement, then they paid the price for their own sin, and were cut off.

Num 19:13 Whoever touches a dead person, the body of anyone who has died, and does not cleanse himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from Israel; because the water for impurity was not thrown on him, he shall be unclean. His uncleanness is still on him.

Here we have a case of someone who was eligible to be cleansed, but did not do so. As a result he is still unclean. And because of that he defiles the tabernacle. And here, because he did not accept the cleansing offered through the sacrifice, he is cut off and removes the defiling by the loss of his own life.

So sin defiles automatically everything around it. This is stated also in Numbers in regards to bloodshed. It defiled the whole land, and the Lord dwells in the land, in the midst of the people of Israel:

Num 35:34 You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell, for I the LORD dwell in the midst of the people of Israel.”

We also see this in the response of Isaiah when He sees the Lord in the temple:

Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
Isa 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.
Isa 6:7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

Isiah is afraid that he will perish if He is in the presence of a holy God. But he is atoned for.

In the earthly type sin defiled by its presence. The heavenly is said to be in need of cleansing, apparently because it is contaminated by sin in the universe. God wants to deal with the sin problem, and took measures through the plan of salvation to purify all things contaminated by Sin. It was through blood of animals in the type, which point to the blood of Christ in the reality.