"Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob"

Douggg said:

Why are not the people of Israel over there, not currently Christians, are not going to be the people grafted back in?

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Israelites who have put their faith in Christ have been grafted in for the past almost 2,000 years now. Why are you acting as if none of them have and that it's only a future thing for any of them to be grafted in?

What about those who were cut off because of unbelief back in Paul's day? Do you think none of them put their faith in Christ and were grafted in after they were cut off? I certainly believe that some of them did. Or else Paul wouldn't have said this:

Romans 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Can you see in the passage above that Paul hoped to help save some of the ones who were cut off because of unbelief? Look at what he said about them here:

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

You seem to think the verse above applies to a future time when Israelites will believe and be grafted back in, but Paul said this about the ones who were cut off in his day. Again, Romans 11:13-14 shows that he believed that he could help save some of the ones who were cut off in his day, so that means Romans 11:23 applied to them. And it applies to anyone who has been cut off because of unbelief ever since then as well. Any Israelite currently in unbelief can be grafted in "if they do not persist in unbelief". This has been true for the past almost 2,000 years. And there have been some Israelites who have believed that entire time. To apply Romans 11 only to the future is a big mistake and takes it completely out of context.

Spiritual Jew said:

Israelites who have put their faith in Christ have been grafted in for the past almost 2,000 years now.

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If anyone puts their faith in Christ, they become an Israelite.
They are an Overcomer, as Jacob was; as Israelite by faith, as Galatians 6:14-16, His Sheep; John 10:1-20, His Victorious ones, as seen in each of the seven Church's of Revelation.

keras said:

If anyone puts their faith in Christ, they become an Israelite.

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Of course. They become part of the spiritual Israel of God. In my previous post I was, of course, referring to those from the nation of Israel putting their faith in Christ. They become spiritual Israelites as a result. Dispensationalists have no understanding of the New Testament and who it teaches that God's people are. They have no understanding of what a passage like Romans 9:6-8 means.

PesachPup said:

Restoring the captivity of Jacob is mentioned 3 times in the following passage of Jeremiah 30., verses 3,10 and 18

Jer 30:3-24 KJV 3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. 4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. 12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. 13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. 14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased. 15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee. 16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. 17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. 19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. 20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. 21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD. 22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. 24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

There are 3 points to consider.
1. It's at the time of Jacob's trouble.
2. God will make a full end of all the nations where Israel dwells in captivity.
3. Afterwards, God will multiply them.

I will comment later and how Luke 21 applies.
Be Blessed
The PuP

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When we look at the timing of "bringing again their captivity", [of Eze 39:25] it is...

Eze 39:26 KJV AFTER that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

When we think about that phrase, "none made them afraid", we are quickly approaching the time, if not already there, that the modern state of Israel, with their nuclear weapons, are afraid of no one. The cowardice that nations have shown toward Iran, [US included] in contrast to Israel's bold stance against them, demonstrates how fearless Israel has become. It's not that her enemies do not pose a threat to her, that fulfills the scripture that "none made her afraid", but it is her fearless attitude toward them that shows how this scripture is fulfilled. She fears no one.

But what Eze 39:26 tells us is that bringing again their captivity does not happen until AFTER they have borne their shame and trespasses. In Jer 30:7b it says, "... Jacob's trouble, but he SHALL BE saved out of it. " And in verse 11 it says, "I am with thee... TO save thee from afar." Their salvation comes AFTER "they have borne their shame..." The point of verses 26 & 27 of Eze 39, is to tell us that the result of bearing their shame and trespasses is it will result in then being carried into captivity...at that time. This is confirmed from Jer 30 saying that God will save them from afar and Eze 39 saying that they are gathered out of their enemies lands. This gathering is not a spiritual gathering, but is a gathering to their own land, Eze 39:28.

Eze 39:28 KJV Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

This brings me to my 2nd point, of making a full end of those nations where God has driven them. This punishment upon the nations, is a part of, and does not begin until "God brings again the captivity of Jacob". But it seems most likely that bringing a full end to those nations, means that the gathering from afar must be completed before that time is brought to its completion , ala Armageddon. But how will that happen? Eze 30 tells us that they will be gathered unto the wilderness, on the edge of the promised land, before they will be allowed to enter their promised land...

Eze 20:34-38 KJV 34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Jer 30:16 KJV Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.

Jer 30:17,18 goes on to agree with Eze 39:28 to say that this bringing again of Jacob's captivity, is a return to dwelling again in their land when it says that God will have mercy on his [Jacob's] dwelling place and that "the city" [of Zion shall be built again...

Jer 30:17-18 KJV 17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is ZION, whom no man seeketh after. 18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and THE CITY shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

Zion shall be builded upon her heap! Most people don't get that point. Zion shall be plowed like a field...

Jer 26:18 KJV Micah the Morasthite prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spake to all the people of Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Zion shall be plowed like a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of a forest.

Mic 3:12 KJV Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

The times in which the captivity of Jacob is brought again will correspond to this time when Zion is plowed like a field. Which brings us to this:

Luk 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles is when the "blindness in part upon Israel will end".

Rom 11:25-26 KJV 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This is not when Israel's blindness comes to an end, but rather it says that it is an end to her partial blindness... because then will be true the scripture that says "...ALL Israel shall be saved..." There will no longer be an elect remnant according to grace, but grace will thus reserved for the whole house of Israel, aka, the remnant!

Rom 9:27 KJV Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

God will bring again the captivity of Israel, once those who are NOT among the "elect according to grace", have been removed from the rank and file of the house of Israel and none remain but the whole portion of the elect remnant. God will commence bringing again the captivity of Israel, when Jerusalem is plowed like a field for a period of 42 months.

Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Be Blessed
The PuP

Douggg said:

Israel, the Jews over there right now are Jacob, brought back into the land from captivity.

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The citizens of the State of Israel are the usual mix of ethnicities found in every nation today. Most of them do not even claim descent from Jacob, or they just don't care about it; if they were. As in fact we ALL are to some degree now; after 3600 years. Practically; a thousand 40 year generations.

The idea that God will redeem and save those reprobate people is a joke and is contrary to all the message of the Bible.
It will be God's true faithful Christian people, who will occupy all of the holy Land. Psalms 37:29, Isaiah 65:9, Romans 9:24-26, +

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:10 is about that en masse conversion to Christianity.

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Sheer Dougggish. Nothing to do with your wrong beliefs of a Jewish conversion.

Douggg said:

Look at why they went into captivity - "for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me".

Obviously, it is not talking about the church.

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The House of Israel is our Spiritual ancestor, as well as physical, as every living person has some of Jacobs DNA.
You fail to see how the Church has taken over the role of the Israel of God.
WE Christians are His true Israelites, the Overcomers for Him.

I know you won't change your beliefs, as if you did then all your end times charts and promotions will be seen as wrong.
But all wrong teachings will be burned up like hay and stubble on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

You may remember that a while ago, I admitted to the error of misplacing the timing of Jesus earthly Ministry. I apologized to Christian Gedge.
Its still time for you to seriously look at what you promote and be sure it conforms to scripture.

Douggg said:

Israel, the Jews over there right now are Jacob, brought back into the land from captivity.

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The Jews "over there right now" are the same as the Jews "over here right now" and the Jews "everywhere right now".

Dispensationalism's frenzied incessant attempts to racialize God and His Word are debunked not only by Scripture, but also by science and the Jewish community itself.

After more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's physical DNA is present in every inhabitant of planet earth.

Genetically, the entirety of humanity is Jewish.

Established mathematically.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Confirmed empirically.

By the Jewish community itself.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

God has only two covenant criteria.

Faith and obedience.

Two spiritual genes.

Abraham's Spiritual DNA.

And nothing else.

Douggg said:

A microscope can not determine who went into captivity for their iniquity and trespass against Jesus. Those were spiritual decisions. Luke 21:24 indicates who is Jacob in Ezekiel 39:23-25.

Don't give me a speech about dispensationalism. Address the verses.

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The speech is only for those interested in reading it.

"It does not say "type" in the text."

Substitute "Jacob" for "type".

There's no mention of Jacob in Luke 21:24 or anywhere in Luke 21.

Douggg said:

A microscope can not determine who went into captivity for their iniquity and trespass against Jesus. Those were spiritual decisions. Luke 21:24 indicates who is Jacob in Ezekiel 39:23-25.

Don't give me a speech about dispensationalism. Address the verses.

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There are eight OT verses which include and associate "Jacob" and "captivity": Psalm 14:7; Psalm 53:6; Psalm 85:1; Jeremiah 30:10; Jeremiah 30:18; Jeremiah 33:26; Jeremiah 46:27; and Ezekiel 39:25.

There is not one NT verse which includes both "Jacob" and "captivity".

While seven of the OT verses are rendered in the future tense, Psalm 85:1 is rendered in the past tense.

There are no tenses in ancient Hebrew. Renderings are at the discretion of the translators.

The clear weight of evidence is that the OT verses refer to events with OT fulfillments i.e. Israel's returns from multiple captivities.

And that there is no connection between Ezekiel 39:23-25 and Luke 21:24.

Your eisegesis has betrayed you again.

Douggg said:

Keras, that Jacob is Israel in Ezekiel 39 and that they went into captivity because of their iniquity and their trespass against Jesus,

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The true Israel [Jacob[ of God is the Christian Church. Jesus said so: Matthew 21:43 Paul said so: Galatians 6:14-16

Douggg said:

it's your eschatology of a CME event wiping out the population of the middle east, and the resurrection/rapture event not being to heaven to be the bride of Christ in Revelation 19, instead going to another part of earth to rebuild a new nation of Christians to replace the Jews over there

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I have ample scripture to support my eschatology.
People going to live in heaven? A totally false idea that is never said to happen.

Rebuilding the new nation of Beulah in all of the holy Land, will be a fantastic and amazing thing to do. Isaiah 65:21-24
What are you going to do sitting on the clouds forever; harp practice?

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is about all Israel, all who are now the Overcomers for God. Jew and from every race, nation and language. 1 Peter 2:9-10

Douggg said:

Who went into captivity in Luke 21:24?

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The non-Christians of Israel.

Douggg said:

Does it also not say that they would fall by the sword?

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is about them who come out of captivity, who had fell by the sword during that captivity. Who went into captivity because of their iniquity and trespass against Jesus.

Jacob in Ezekiel 39 is that Israel.

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So they did fall by the sword and are long dead.
Now, all those prophesies made by the OT Prophets that refer to ancient Israel; refer to Christians today.
That is the truth and is a mistake to try to make the Jews into anything other that what we see they are; Jesus rejecters, relying on their own strength and making the Torah and Mishna superior to the Bible.

Douggg said:

Does it also not say that they would fall by the sword?

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is about them who come out of captivity, who had fell by the sword during that captivity. Who went into captivity because of their iniquity and trespass against Jesus.

Jacob in Ezekiel 39 is that Israel.

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He isn't.

Throughout Scripture, "Jacob" is a representation of the faithful obedient remnant within the unfaithful disobedient nation of Israel.

The OT "Jacob" remnant, comprised of the prophets et al, went with the nation into every captivity, and was used by God to call the nation to repentance, and to the restoration of its covenant relationship with Him; thus transforming it from unfaithfulness and disobedience back to faithfulness and obedience.

At which times, God returned each now-faithful-obedient enlarged "Jacob" back from captivity.

Today, there is only one "Jacob" in the secular state of Israel. It is the tiny Christian Church remnant within the nation. Paul describes it as "all Israel", the believing beloved elect "Jacob" remnant which is part of the global Christian Church "Jacob" remnant, in Romans 9 and Romans 11.

The 1948 secular unfaithful disobedient nation of Israel never did, and never will, qualify as "Jacob". It never has satisfied, and never will satisfy, the requisite covenant criteria of faith and obedience.

For as Paul, quoting Isaiah, laments in Romans 9:27, only "a remnant shall be saved".