Evil working for God?

ViaCrucis

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I've heard an interesting idea that ancients were unable to understand why they were feeling or thinking a certain way so they would ascribe emotional states to deities ir spirits. ("And then Athena whispered to Odysseus." "YHWH hardened the pharaoh's heart."

I don't know about that, but I think the ancients used the best language and ways of talking about things that they could. Words like "spirit" are nebulous enough to capture various senses of meaning, not only in English, but in equivalent words in other languages. For example in the New Testament St. Paul writes "God has not given us a spirit of fear", the meaning of "spirit of fear" does not mean a supernatural entity called "fear" or a "species" of "spirits" with fear as their domain. It simply means that God has not given us a reason to be afraid, God does not wish to live dominated by fear--our fear.

While "evil spirit" can refer to supernatural entities (specifically demons/devils as used in the New Testament), when we are talking about the ancient Hebrews it probably just means a terrible disposition, a malady of the mind and soul.

As such the writer(s) of the books of Samuel are likely conveying that Saul's--what we would call--mental illness is directly linked to the taking away of God's presence from Saul.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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It says an evil spirit FROM God, this isn't saying that God removed himself and then this evil slipped in... It is clearly FROM God. And the word is almost universally translated as 'Evil' in the rest of the OT... so I'm not yet convinced of your explanation.

You have to look earlier in the text, to 1 Samuel 16,

"Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him. And Saul's servants said to him, 'Behold now, a harmful spirit from God is tormenting you. Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the harmful spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well.'" - 1 Samuel 16:14-16

That's the necessary context for what you are reading in 1 Samuel 18.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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2PhiloVoid

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1 Samuel 18:10
The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully on Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand.

*

So God can employ an evil spirit to do work for him?
Why would God do this? If he wanted to punish he could do it himself.
This is interesting, because it is not simply God's righteous goodness appearing as something bad to us because of our arrogance, or even a passive allowing of evil... This is the active sending of evil from God to do a job.
God is causing an evil spirit to do evil...
How then could evil be the absence of God, or of good.
God is the active director of evil here.

Please explain..

Yes, God can employ ('send') an evil spirit to do some work for Him; but it's a form of punishment upon those who delusively resist Him and misrepresent His will, such as upon Ahab in 1 Kings 22:19-23.

It's not simply something the Lord does flagarantly to anyone and everyone "just because." :rolleyes:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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God commits evil... Ok

I'm assuming that because you didn't designate a specific responder in this comment you've made, you're not directing this at my previous statements.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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I'm assuming that because you didn't designate a specific responder in this comment you've made, you're not directing this at my previous statements.
A number of people seem to be saying the same thing.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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A number of people seem to be saying the same thing.

Am I saying the same thing? Well, your paraphrase is an equivocation, I think. Committing 'evil' is not equivalent to sending judgement upon those who do evil (e.g. Pharaoh and the Egyptians in the Exodus story), but this is especially so if and when that evil is carried out by those who live and breath within an identity as one of "God's people" (as with Ahab).
 
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TheWhat?

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Seemed relevant to the topic

[Mar 5:11-13 NKJV] 11 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. 12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them." 13 And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea.

[Luk 10:17 NKJV] 17 ... "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
 
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CuriousPagan

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I don't know about that, but I think the ancients used the best language and ways of talking about things that they could. Words like "spirit" are nebulous enough to capture various senses of meaning, not only in English, but in equivalent words in other languages. For example in the New Testament St. Paul writes "God has not given us a spirit of fear", the meaning of "spirit of fear" does not mean a supernatural entity called "fear" or a "species" of "spirits" with fear as their domain. It simply means that God has not given us a reason to be afraid, God does not wish to live dominated by fear--our fear.

While "evil spirit" can refer to supernatural entities (specifically demons/devils as used in the New Testament), when we are talking about the ancient Hebrews it probably just means a terrible disposition, a malady of the mind and soul.

As such the writer(s) of the books of Samuel are likely conveying that Saul's--what we would call--mental illness is directly linked to the taking away of God's presence from Saul.

-CryptoLutheran
It gets really hairy when looking at ancient myths that portray some very heavy truths in very symbolic ways that would make perfect sense to people living IN that culture but not outside of it. Interpreting those texts literally leads either to confusion or to the "ancient aliens" nonsense.
 
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Petros2015

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The next day an evil spirit from God

I think that some of the Old Testament phrases (not all but possibly this one) interpret roughly "anything that happens is 'from God'". The fact that an evil spirit came in this context, to my thinking is 'an evil spirit came' not 'an evil spirit was directed to come'. In much the same way, the Christmas Tsunami of 2004 is 'an act of God', but was not necessarily a direct Christmas present.

Probably the best person to ask about the interpretation of this particular passage would be a Jewish rabbi, I would think. Where I have sought Jewish sources and commentary on Old Testament passages, I have found them to be very enlightening.

(just read the previous posts, looks like several people beat me to it, I agree with all of them)
 
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Tellyontellyon

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The God of the OT, the Father, is then good and evil...
But the God of the NT, the Son, is entirely good.
So is the crucifixion really about a transformation of God? God is transformed into one that withholds evil? And the people who believe in the new transformed God can be saved?
 
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TheWhat?

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The God of the OT, the Father, is then good and evil...
But the God of the NT, the Son, is entirely good.
So is the crucifixion really about a transformation of God? God is transformed into one that withholds evil? And the people who believe in the new transformed God can be saved?

That's not my reading of it. God does not change. The Son in the NT is truth revealed, not changed.

You jumped to a hasty conclusion that the teaching is "God commits evil." Denominations vary on their interpretations. That would not be a catholic perspective.
 
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ViaCrucis

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God commits evil... Ok

No.

But the ancient Hebrews understood that whether good things happen or bad things happen, nothing happens outside of God's control over the universe.

When it rains and crops are watered, that was a blessing from God.
When it doesn't rain, and crops die, that also was by God's will.

What most of us are trying to get at is how those who wrote the text saw and understood things. It's not about a revelation of God Himself, but a description of how the ancient Hebrews thought about their world.

Saul's erratic behavior was a direct result of God removing His favor from Saul.

Not that God actively tormented Saul, or that God actively sent a malicious spiritual being to torment Saul. But that as a direct result of Saul's loss of favor Saul began to be overcome by madness.

It's important when reading the Bible to understand the ways in which those who wrote the texts understood the world around them, and to understand the way they word things.

The ancients also conceived of the world as established upon pillars with a material firmament over the earth, that doesn't mean that the world actually rests on pillars and that the sky is a solid dome--but that is how the ancient Hebrews (and other surrounding cultures) perceived their world, and so talk about it.

Building theological propositions from such things would be incorrect to do; Christian theology is not based upon descriptive elements in the biblical texts, but rather Christocentrically by looking back upon the Old Testament with the hindsight of Christ.

"I create darkness and I create light", as is said in the work of the Prophet Isaiah, does not mean that God is both good and evil; it means that there is only one power in the universe: God. We do not attribute one set of natural phenomenon to this god, and then another set of natural phenomenon to another. There isn't a god of the sun, of the moon, of fertility, of the harvest, of the rains, etc. There's just the one God, YHWH.

Part of that Hebrew monotheism was to emphatically deny the power of other gods, and since there is only one God, all that happens happens only by the will and power of the one God, YHWH.

So why does Saul fall into madness? The author writes that that God removed the favor of His Spirit from Saul, and that a harmful spirit from God came upon Saul and tormented him. Well, where else could this madness of Saul's come from? If there is only one God, there is no other power in the universe, then what else could Saul's affliction have been if it wasn't somehow under God's power and providence?

What we are seeing here in the text of Samuel is how the ancient Jews wrestled with God in their understanding of Him. Much of the Old Testament involves the struggle with God, the way in which Israel and the ancient Hebrew people wrestled and sought to understand the God of their fathers, the God who made covenant with them. That wrestling with God is a reoccurring and even consistent theme throughout the entire Hebrew Bible.

From a Christian perspective there was a very incomplete revelation of God, the knowledge of the ancients of God was like an incomplete and patchwork work. Only becoming complete and seamless in and through Jesus, the Son of God who gives us the full face of God the Father. The New Testament both implies and outright says this on a number of occasions.

Fundamental to the Christian religious proposition about God is that we only really, truly know and meet God in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Word of God, He is the Revelation of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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James_Lai

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1 Samuel 18:10
The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully on Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand.

*

So God can employ an evil spirit to do work for him?
Why would God do this? If he wanted to punish he could do it himself.
This is interesting, because it is not simply God's righteous goodness appearing as something bad to us because of our arrogance, or even a passive allowing of evil... This is the active sending of evil from God to do a job.
God is causing an evil spirit to do evil...
How then could evil be the absence of God, or of good.
God is the active director of evil here.

Please explain..

There are references to ‘an evil spirit’ (rûaḥ rāʿâ) sent by God in Judg. 9.23 and 1 Sam. 16.23. In the latter case, the spirit which afflicts Saul is also called rûaḥ ʾĕlōhîm rāʿâ, ‘an evil spirit of God’ or ‘evil divine spirit’ (1 Sam. 16.15, 1 Sam. 16; 1 Sam. 18.10), rûaḥ YHWH rāʿâ, ‘an evil spirit of Yahweh’ (1 Sam. 19.9), and, in its first occurrence, rûaḥ rāʿâ mēʾēt YHWH, ‘an evil spirit from Yahweh’ (1 Sam. 16.14).
 
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James_Lai

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In 1 Sam 16:14 it says, that Jehova’s spirit left Saul and then an evil spirit came from Jehova and troubled him…

So, when Jehova’s spirit is on Saul, he’s happy and nice to others. When an evil spirit from Jehova comes in, he’s mad and starts throwing his spear towards people.

This evil spirit is only in Judges and 1 Sam. Maybe these books share an author or editor, or were written around the same time. Nowhere else do we have this evil spirit from God (in fact, Jehova)

From the context it’s obvious than when there’s a conflict between people, or somebody is extra mad, it’s Jehova sending His evil spirit, troubling and agitating them.

So to me it looks like at the historic time when the books were written the author believed people’s feelings were fully controlled by their Deity.
 
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aiki

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1 Samuel 18:10
The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully on Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand.

*

So God can employ an evil spirit to do work for him?
Why would God do this? If he wanted to punish he could do it himself.
This is interesting, because it is not simply God's righteous goodness appearing as something bad to us because of our arrogance, or even a passive allowing of evil... This is the active sending of evil from God to do a job.
God is causing an evil spirit to do evil...
How then could evil be the absence of God, or of good.
God is the active director of evil here.

Please explain..

1 Samuel 18:8-12
8 And Saul was very angry, and this saying displeased him. He said, “They have ascribed to David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed thousands, and what more can he have but the kingdom?”
9 And Saul eyed David from that day on.
10 The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand.
11 And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, “I will pin David to the wall.” But David evaded him twice.
12 Saul was afraid of David because the LORD was with him but had departed from Saul.


There is always a context within which things occur in Scripture and removing a verse from that context is a sure way to adopt a wrong understanding of it. Saul had departed from the Lord, disobeying God repeatedly in Saul's role as king over Israel.

1 Samuel 15:10-11
10 The word of the LORD came to Samuel:
11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the LORD all night.


There are three instances recorded in the chapters just before chapter 18 where Saul directly disobeyed the command of God and/or acted very foolishly, endangering the Israelites and even his own son, Jonathan. Saul's replacement, David, the shepherd boy, aroused anger and jealousy in Saul who knew that David had been made God's anointed successor to Saul by Samuel the prophet. This did not deter Saul from his hatred of David, which it should have. In judgment upon Saul, God allowed an evil, lying spirit to afflict Saul.

God, then, did not allow a lying spirit access to an obedient, holy, humble man of God. It was a man who had repeatedly rebelled against God to whom such a spirit was allowed to go. This is what sin in any of us does: It opens our lives to the "roaring lion who walks about seeking whom he may devour." (1 Peter 5:8) Rebellion toward God makes the rebellious person ready prey for the demonic. So it was with Saul and so it is today for those who resist God's will.
 
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Clare73

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1 Samuel 18:10
The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully on Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand.*

So God can employ an evil spirit to do work for him?
Why would God do this? If he wanted to punish he could do it himself.
This is interesting, because it is not simply God's righteous goodness appearing as something bad to us because of our arrogance, or even a passive allowing of evil... This is the active sending of evil from God to do a job.
God is causing an evil spirit to do evil...
How then could evil be the absence of God, or of good.
God is the active director of evil here.
Please explain..
God uses evil for his own purposes. . .one of them being a foil (Romans 9:23).
 
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