Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Saint Steven said:

That's debatable. You can't even spell it. (understand)

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Saint Steven said:

There it is again.

If someones take on the Bible doesn't agree with your take on the Bible it means they haven't studied the Bible. - lol

How do you define arrogance?

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Lazarus Short said:

Please go back and read Genesis 1:1. It's Heaven and Earth, just as we see paired over and over in the Scriptures. Hell is not mentioned in ANY of the places where the Creation is mentioned or described. Further, we never see pairings such as Heaven and Hell or Earth and Hell. Not there. Sorry.

Again, learn to see what you are looking at.

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Major1 said:

The comment you just made show us all the simplistic of your thinking.

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Major1 said:

Exactly.......Gospel = Good news.

Rejection of that Gospel = BAD news!

The comment you just made show us all the simplistic of your thinking.
Many things in life have good news and bad news associated with them. The entire truth is generally found in a combination of both. Emphasizing one side to the exclusion of the other is not the whole truth. The same is true of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Until we know the bad news, we can’t truly appreciate the good news. You would not appreciate a stranger bursting into your home and dragging you outside, unless you first understood that your house was on fire. Until we understand that we are destined for hell because of our sin, we cannot appreciate all that Jesus did for us on the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). If we don’t realize how hopeless we are, we won’t recognize the great hope Jesus offers (Hebrews 6:19). Unless we recognize that we are sinners, we can’t appreciate a Savior.

Romans 10:3-4..........
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

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Major1 said:

Then how in the world can you then deny the existance of Hell for lost sinners when God Himself told you about it?????

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Lazarus Short said:

I just wanted to be clear...but not in the Scientological sense.

No "guility consciouse" here.

Now, why should I list my thoughts/opinions? I already told you, round-about, that I refuse. Besides, your last sentence leaves me wondering what you meant, exactly.

The nice thing about UR is that it is a fail-safe position. You can carry on being a damnationist for the rest of your life, and still go to the Kingdom of Heaven. Again, what's not to like?

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Major1 said:

Thank you for your thoughts. May I ask you this.......Jesus Christ is not mentioned anywhere in Genesis either or in the Creation story. With your logic then He does not exist. Does that make any sense to you at all.

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Major1 said:

The good thing about God is that we can live like the devil and then still come to Christ and be forgiven and saved........WHILE WE ARE ALIVE.

DEATH ends the opportunity to be saved my friend and no amount of wishing and hopeing and praying will change that fact.

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Saint Steven said:

Be selective about which Bible you read.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

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Saint Steven said:

Unprovable dogma.

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Saint Steven said:

Here's one.

Genesis 3:15 NIV
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

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Major1 said:

And all of a sudden you are NOT a stickler on actual words.

You made a post about the "WORD HELL" and said it was not in the Bible.
Post #2486.

Now you use Genesis 3:15 to say that the WORDS JESUS CHRIST are seen it.

WHERE Steve are the WORDS.....JESUS CHRIST in Genesis 3:15?????

What is your understanding of "Disengenuine"????

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Saint Steven said:

Anyone familiar with the Bible knows that the words "Jesus Christ" do not appear until the NT.

Furthermore, anyone familiar with the Bible knows that Jesus Christ appears in the OT in many ways, which is revealed in the NT.

So, why are you unaware of these things?

So, who is being disingenuous? (note spelling)

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Major1 said:

Blessing to you and good bye to you as well.

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Major1 said:

Thank you for your thoughts. May I ask you this.......Jesus Christ is not mentioned anywhere in Genesis either or in the Creation story. With your logic then He does not exist. Does that make any sense to you at all.

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Major1 said:

In the King James Version, Sheol is translated “hell” thirty-one times and “pit” three times. When both saved and unsaved died, they were said to go to Sheol, the place of the departed dead. The Hebrew word “Sheol” was translated into Greek as hadees (hades). Hades or Sheol is the place the Old Testament unsaved went.

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Lazarus Short said:

The above is misleading and not the whole story. I dug into my Strong's about "sheol" and found this, as I wrote in my manuscript:

In this chapter, I am going to adjust my focus from the general text of the Bible to the single term, “sheol,” generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. The decision to do so grew from a seed of suspicion, when verses with “hell” kept turning up, though “hell” was translated from “sheol,” which was also often rendered by the much less theologically-loaded “grave” or “pit.” Was this honest translation or was there a slant to which verses were translated one way or the other? I started in Strong’s Concordance, but it said, “SHEOL, See HELL.” Consulting the entry for “Hell,” I had before me all the verses containing the word “Hell” in the KJV, from Deuteronomy to the Revelation (see my comments on page 10). Now as I said much earlier, “sheol” is translated in the KJV three ways: grave, pit or hell, so we have our categories, and we can ignore instances where any of these three are derived from other words, such as those meaning the literal grave.



First, here is a list of the thirty verses with “sheol” translated as “grave” or “pit” in the KJV:



And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. Genesis 37:35



And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 42:38



And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:29





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It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:31



But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. Numbers 16:30



They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. Numbers 16:33



The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. I Samuel 2:6



Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. I Kings 2:6



Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. I Kings 2:9



As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. Job 7:9



O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13



If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:13



They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Job 21:13



Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. Job 24:19



For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 6:5



O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Psalm 30:3



Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. Psalm 31:17



Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. Psalm 49:14-15



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For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. Psalm 88:3



What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. Psalm 89:48



Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth. Psalm 141:7



Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: Proverbs 1:12



The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough. Proverbs 30:16



Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10



Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. Song of Solomon 8:6



Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11



I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years. Isaiah 38:10



For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. Isaiah 38:18



Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. Ezekiel 31:15



I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. Hosea 13:14



Now here’s a list of the thirty verses, with “sheol” translated as “hell” in the KJV:



For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22





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The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; II Samuel 22:6



It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Job 11:8



Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. Job 26:6



The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17



For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalm 16:10



The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psalm 18:5



Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Psalm 55:15



For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. Psalm 86:13



The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. Psalm 116:3



If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8



Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. Proverbs 5:5



Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Proverbs 7:27



But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Proverbs 9:18



Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? Proverbs 15:11



The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Proverbs 15:24



Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:14



Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. Proverbs 27:20



Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 5:14




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Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:9

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:15

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:15

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. Isaiah 28:18

And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell. Isaiah 57:9

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. Ezekiel 31:16-17

The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. Ezekiel 32:21

And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. Ezekiel 32:27

Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: Amos 9:2

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:2

Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people: Habakkuk 2:5

Observations – Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it

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be understood by context and usage. However, they let half the instances fall to “grave” or “pit,” and half to “hell.” I suppose they needed some support for their Hell in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go their way.

In comparing the “grave/pit” list and the “hell” list, I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context indicates the real world. The verses in the “hell” list mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent. In the “hell” list of this chapter are Isaiah 57:9, Ezekiel 31:16-17, and Ezekiel 32:27, which have real world contexts. It might be useful for better understanding, to read each verse and mentally insert “hell” for “grave/pit” in the first list, and “grave/pit” for “hell” in the second. I think the reader will see what I am saying about context.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” list.

We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” list. Psalm 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban

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on exit from Hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

The translators did make a few other mistakes. In our “hell” list is Deuteronomy 32:22, which depicts hellfire burning in the real world, out of its proper bounds. Lastly, we have Jonah’s prayer from “out of the belly of Hell” (2:2). Well, no, verse one correctly gives it as the “fish’s belly” – let’s not forget where the prophet really was, but the translators forgot the context, or at least, they forgot to be consistent.

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Lazarus Short said:

Actually, Jesus the Christ is mentioned several times in Genesis...or were you unaware?

Who do you suppose created the Cosmos in Genesis 1:1?

Who do you suppose visited Adam & Eve in the Garden and warned them about a certain tree?

Who do you suppose visited Abram on His way to inspect Sodom & Gomorrah?

Are you aware of the story in the names of the pre-flood patriarchs, which tell of Him?

Does this make any sense to you at all?

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MMXX said:

I'd be willing to continue if you will stop saying demeaning things to me and others like "you do not agree with what the Bible says" etc.

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