Signs a person is regenerated.

Hammster · Nov 22, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
It's not a mixture. What I am saying is what you are saying here, that you still have the flesh and concupiscence.

Those who have been prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive the grace of justification are not yet justified by baptism. Rather, their will is being moved from a state of slavery to sin to slavery to Christ. When they accept, by their newly freed will, the justification offered for them in baptism, then they are saved (enter into the sacramental life of the Church).

Now you switched from regeneration to justification. I can’t keep going if you are going to move the goalposts.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 22, 2021

Hammster said:
Now you switched from regeneration to justification. I can’t keep going if you are going to move the goalposts.

Regeneration and Justification are the same thing.
Catholic Catechism:
The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. 1989

Hammster · Nov 22, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Regeneration and Justification are the same thing.

No. No they are not.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 22, 2021

Hammster said:
No. No they are not.

Hold on. Rome isn't the only one. I have a quote from the Lutheran Book of Concord. Brb

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 22, 2021

The BoC uses justification in both senses so nevermind. :III. The Righteousness of Faith before God | Book of Concord

Still, I am following the Catholic Catechism in my definitions so I am not changing goal posts.

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Hold on. Rome isn't the only one. I have a quote from the Lutheran Book of Concord. Brb

TheWhat? · Nov 22, 2021

- never mind -

d taylor · Nov 22, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
@d taylor,
I've replaced God with Jesus so as to bring out what I believe is the meaning of Theresa's words. Remember, she believed herself to be married to Christ as a sister.

Our purpose is to take Jesus and his love to the poorest of the poor, irrespective of their ethnic origin or the faith they profess.
So Jesus is being taken to everyone

Our discernment of aid is not the belief but the necessity.
We don't discriminate based on religion. We aid all.

We never try to convert those whom we receive to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of Jesus' presence

and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men—simply better—we will be satisfied.
Because there is a war going on and besides, conversion belongs in the hands of God.

It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to Jesus for her or him, this is the way Jesus comes into their life—his life.

Because Jesus is not bound by the Sacraments.

If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation.

We will not force anyone to go against their conscience.

10... but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2

Some how we got off on mother teresa, but i really do not focus to much (just occasionally) kind of like the one post today on people. My focus is the teaching of The Bible, so really will not go into mother teresa and her beliefs, just not an interest of mine. It just does not effect Biblical areas of how a person receives Eternal Life.

d taylor · Nov 22, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Yes, on this we agree. We seem to disagree on the how, but I think we are both trying to preserve the sovereignty of God's grace in the matter.

In order to trust God, one must love him.

View attachment 308687

View attachment 308688
I agree with these.

I'm more comfortable following the KJV and saying that it is by the faithfulness of Jesus that we are justified, rather than our faith.

You are placing a lot on a person who is an unbeliever, when you say. That a person must love God to trust Him. If a person knows basically nothing about God, "and that can be the case in many instances sharing the good news of God's free gift of Eternal Life to unbelievers" how can they love God who they know very little about.

Where is the requirement from God, for Paul to love Him on Paul's receiving God's free gift of Eternal life, on the road to Damascus.

Or Philip, why did he not require the eunuch to love God.
Also, this can be seen in this Biblical illustration. That the eunuch was not allowed to be baptized unless he first believed. So that is an example, that it is belief that one becomes a believer, a born again child of God.

Many unbelievers can be ignorant about The God of The Bible, so to say they must love God. Is placing something on them they just are not in a position to do or to really understanding what loving God is.

It may take a year or more before a believer matures in their faith before they can really love God and understand what that entails.

d taylor · Nov 22, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I'm more comfortable following the KJV and saying that it is by the faithfulness of Jesus that we are justified, rather than our faith.

That (justification)can be a legenthy response so to help.
Here are a few articles on justification. Search Results for “Justified” – Grace Evangelical Society

d taylor · Nov 22, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Yes, on this we agree. We seem to disagree on the how, but I think we are both trying to preserve the sovereignty of God's grace in the matter.

Well The Bible gives only one way.

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 22, 2021

TheWhat? said:
- never mind -

Ah. Ok.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 22, 2021

d taylor said:
You are placing a lot on a person who is an unbeliever, when you say. That a person must love God to trust Him. If a person knows basically nothing about God, "and that can be the case in many instances sharing the good news of God's free gift of Eternal Life to unbelievers" how can they love God who they know very little about.

How can they trust God whom they know very little about? Love is just as difficult as faith (for me anyway).

Where is the requirement from God, for Paul to love Him on Paul's receiving God's free gift of Eternal life, on the road to Damascus.

Where is the requirement of faith? Faith came but it wasn't a requirement.

Or Philip, why did he not require the eunuch to love God.
Also, this can be seen in this Biblical illustration. That the eunuch was not allowed to be baptized unless he first believed. So that is an example, that it is belief that one becomes a believer, a born again child of God.

Show me please.

Many unbelievers can be ignorant about The God of The Bible, so to say they must love God. Is placing something on them they just are not in a position to do or to really understanding what loving God is.

I just don't understand on a human level, trusting in someone you don't love. They seem to go hand in hand. Ignorance breeds lack of faith too I think.

It may take a year or more before a believer matures in their faith before they can really love God and understand what that entails.

Yeah...That doesn't make any sense to me. How do you trust someone you are indifferent to or even hate?

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 22, 2021

I meant, baptism. Baptism rather than faith. But maybe I am being unorthodox. Let me ask @The Liturgist .

d taylor said:
Well The Bible gives only one way.

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 22, 2021

d taylor said:
That (justification)can be a legenthy response so to help.
Here are a few articles on justification. Search Results for “Justified” – Grace Evangelical Society

K. Let me read. I'll get back with you tomorrow.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 22, 2021

That was my fault. I apologize. My brain goes off in many different directions.

d taylor said:
Some how we got off on mother teresa, but i really do not focus to much (just occasionally) kind of like the one post today on people. My focus is the teaching of The Bible, so really will not go into mother teresa and her beliefs, just not an interest of mine. It just does not effect Biblical areas of how a person receives Eternal Life.

d taylor · Nov 22, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
How can they trust God whom they know very little about? Love is just as difficult as faith (for me anyway).

Where is the requirement of faith? Faith came but it wasn't a requirement.

Show me please.

I just don't understand on a human level, trusting in someone you don't love. They seem to go hand in hand. Ignorance breeds lack of faith too I think.

Yeah...That doesn't make any sense to me. How do you trust someone you are indifferent to or even hate?

So lets say you have fallen down a well and have been there several hours, maybe even a day, going on another day.

And a person discovers you are in the well and offers you a rope and to pull you out. Are you going to first say hey i have to love this person first before i can tie this rope around me to be pulled out.

Or are you going to simply take the rope and tie it around you and let this person know you are ready to be pulled out and rescued.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 23, 2021

Delete bc posted twice

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 23, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
@d taylor
Normally, I would take the rope...I think. Like, if I knew that the rope was strong and I wasn't going to break something. Perhaps the guy lowering it is fireman, then I would take it ---definately. At the same time, I would love this person for pulling me out or at least for trying. When I got to the top, I'd probably hug him and cry. But that's perhaps more gratitude than love. I'm definitely loving the rope as I put it around me and holding on. Like 'hallelujah' kind of love, which is probably more emotional than virtuous. Is my love enabling me to tie the rope around me or just trust alone.....I don't know to be honest.

This is a very good analogy btw. It's making me think. I'm sorry I am so difficult.

The Liturgist · Nov 23, 2021

d taylor said:
So lets say you have fallen down a well and have been there several hours, maybe even a day, going on another day.

And a person discovers you are in the well and offers you a rope and to pull you out. Are you going to first say hey i have to love this person first before i can tie this rope around me to be pulled out.

Or are you going to simply take the rope and tie it around you and let this person know you are ready to be pulled out and rescued.

As sure as the world is round, I would love my rescuer. Probably to the extent where they wished they had left me.. Seriously, though, sitting in the bottom of a well for a few days can have a powerful emotional effect (as can being entrapped in underground mining complexes, which has happened repeatedly and been fairly well documented in the past 20 years).

St_Worm2 · Nov 23, 2021

In case anyone is interested, here are a couple of excerpts from Anglican theologian, Dr. J. I. Packer, on the topics of Regeneration and Justification. Hopefully they may prove to be useful.

REGENERATION
THE CHRISTIAN IS BORN AGAIN

In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
JOHN 3:3

Regeneration is a New Testament concept that grew, it seems, out of a parabolic picture-phrase that Jesus used to show Nicodemus the inwardness and depth of the change that even religious Jews must undergo if they were ever to see and enter the kingdom of God, and so have eternal life (John 3:3-15). Jesus pictured the change as being “born again.”

The concept is of God ~renovating the heart~, the core of a person’s being, by implanting a new principle of desire, purpose, and action, a dispositional dynamic that finds expression in positive response to the gospel and its Christ. Jesus’ phrase “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) harks back to Ezekiel 36:25-27 where God is pictured as symbolically cleansing persons from sin’s pollution (by water) and bestowing a “new heart” by putting his Spirit within them. Because this is so explicit, Jesus chides Nicodemus, “Israel’s teacher,” for not understanding how new birth happens (John 3:9–10). Jesus’ point throughout is that there is no exercise of faith in himself as the supernatural Savior, no repentance, and no true discipleship apart from this new birth.

Elsewhere John teaches that belief in the Incarnation and Atonement, with faith and love, holiness and righteousness, is the fruit and proof that one is born of God (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4). It thus appears that as there is no conversion without new birth, so there is no new birth without conversion.

Though infant regeneration can be a reality when God so purposes (Luke 1:15, 41–44), the ordinary context of new birth is one of effectual calling—that is, confrontation with the gospel and illumination as to its truth and significance as a message from God to oneself. Regeneration is always the decisive element in effectual calling.

Regeneration is monergistic: that is, entirely the work of God the Holy Spirit. It raises the elect among the spiritually dead to new life in Christ (Eph. 2:1–10). Regeneration is a transition from spiritual death to spiritual life, and conscious, intentional, active faith in Christ is its immediate ~fruit~, not its immediate ~cause~. Regeneration is the work of what Augustine called “prevenient” grace, the grace that precedes our outgoings of heart toward God.

JUSTIFICATION
SALVATION IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
GALATIANS 3:11

The doctrine of justification, the storm center of the Reformation, was a major concern of the apostle Paul. For him it was the heart of the gospel (Rom. 1:17; 3:21–5:21; Gal. 2:15–5:1) shaping both his message (Acts 13:38–39) and his devotion and spiritual life (2 Cor. 5:13–21; Phil. 3:4–14). Though other New Testament writers affirm the same doctrine in substance, the terms in which Protestants have affirmed and defended it for almost five centuries are drawn primarily from Paul.

Justification is a ~judicial act~ of God pardoning sinners (wicked and ungodly persons, Romans 4:5; 3:9–24), accepting them as just, and so putting permanently right their previously estranged relationship with himself. This justifying sentence is God’s gift of righteousness (Rom. 5:15–17), his bestowal of a status of acceptance for Jesus’ sake (2 Corinthians 5:21).

God’s justifying judgment seems strange, for pronouncing sinners righteous may appear to be precisely the unjust action on the judge’s part that God’s own law forbade (Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15). Yet it is in fact a just judgment, for its basis is the righteousness of Jesus Christ who as “the last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45), our representative head acting on our behalf, obeyed the law that bound us and endured the retribution for lawlessness that was our due and so (to use a medieval technical term) “merited” our justification. So we are justified justly, on the basis of justice done (Romans 3:25-26) and Christ’s righteousness reckoned to our account (Romans 5:18-19).

God’s justifying decision is the judgment of the Last Day, declaring where we shall spend eternity, brought forward into the present and pronounced here and now. It is the last judgment that will ever be passed on our destiny; God will never go back on it, however much Satan may appeal against God’s verdict (Zech. 3:1; Rev. 12:10; Rom. 8:33–34). To be justified is to be eternally secure (Rom. 5:1–5; 8:30).

The necessary means, or instrumental cause, of justification is personal faith in Jesus Christ as crucified Savior and risen Lord (Rom. 4:23–25; 10:8–13). This is because the meritorious ground of our justification is entirely in Christ. As we give ourselves in faith to Jesus, Jesus gives us his gift of righteousness, so that in the very act of “closing with Christ,” as older Reformed teachers put it, we receive divine pardon and acceptance which we could not otherwise have (Gal. 2:15–16; 3:24).

Official Roman Catholic theology ~includes sanctification in the definition of justification~, which it sees as a process rather than a single decisive event .. e.g. John 5:24, and affirms that while faith contributes to our acceptance with God, our works of satisfaction and merit contribute too. Rome sees baptism, viewed as a channel of sanctifying grace, as the primary instrumental cause of justification, and the sacrament of penance, whereby congruous merit is achieved through works of satisfaction, as the supplementary restorative cause whenever the grace of God’s initial acceptance is lost through mortal sin. Congruous, as distinct from condign, merit means merit that it is fitting, though not absolutely necessary, for God to reward by a fresh flow of sanctifying grace. On the Roman Catholic view, therefore, believers save themselves with the help of the grace that flows from Christ through the church’s sacramental system, and in this life no sense of confidence in God’s grace can ordinarily be had. Such teaching is a far cry from that of Paul. ~Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs

--David

John 5
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
.

Signs a person is regenerated.

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