Did Jesus save us from God?

Clare73 · Nov 17, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
God's justice system must be better than man's, correct?

And if they "differ," whose system is judged to be better? God's or man's?

You're too intelligent for this drivel.

misput · Nov 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
And if they "differ," whose system is judged to be better? God's or man's?

You're too intelligent for this drivel.

Clare, would you mind addressing Schrewd Managers Questions more in depth instead of trying to shame him?

Clare73 · Nov 18, 2021

misput said:
Clare, would you mind addressing Schrewd Managers Questions more in depth instead of trying to shame him?

I did address it.

Acknowledging someone's intelligence is now shaming?
Are you not shaming me for my lack of "depth"?

Looks like a set up.

Or it is that you need an in-depth answer?

Actually, the answer I gave is the in-depth answer.
A good understanding of Scripture gives the answer, but it requires a good understanding of Scripture itself, not what someone repeats to you.
It is a work of the Holy Spirit in the mind and heart.
I suspect it is designed that way to flush out the interlopers.

Are you in agreement with SM's premise?
If so, I over-estimated you also.

Bottom line:
He's God, we're not.
We don't judge him, he judges us.

It's not mine to justify (prove right) him,
it's his to justify (make righteous by faith) me.

misput · Nov 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
I did address it.

Yes, in a very shallow and condescending way.

Acknowledging someone's intelligence is now shaming?

The way you did it, yes.

Are you not shaming me for my lack of "depth"?

Yes, "what's good for the gander is good for the goose" : )

Or it is that you need an in-depth answer?

It usually works best.

Actually, the answer I gave is the in-depth answer.

Not even close.

A good understanding of Scripture gives the answer, but it requires a good understanding of Scripture itself, not what someone repeats to you.

I could not see it from here.

It is a work of the Holy Spirit in the mind and heart.

I see no evidence.

I suspect it is designed that way to flush out the interlopers.

I did not see any of those lurking in the bushes either : )

Are you in agreement with SM's premise?

I thought he deserved a better answer, yes.

If so, I over-estimated you also.

Your estimate of me does not address the issue.

Bottom line:
He's God, we're not.
We don't judge him, he judges us.

It's not mine to justify (prove right) him,
it's his to justify (make righteous by faith) me.

No kidding, now that is really, really deep, WOW! : )

Your basic approach to scripture is: That's what it says, I believe it and that settles it, which may be great for you but for most of us is a very milk toast approach, with many questions left unanswered.

Clare73 · Nov 18, 2021

misput said:
Yes, in a very shallow and condescending way.

And that confirms what I said about "seeing it". . .

No more "shallow and condescending" or "milk toast" than Paul in Romans 9:19-21.

If it's good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me. . .and should be for you also.

misput · Nov 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
Confirming what I said. . .

No more "shallow and condescending" than Paul in Romans 9:19-21.

Confirming what I said: "That's what it says and I believe it and that settles it" : ) ( : :amen:

Shrewd Manager · Nov 21, 2021

Clare73 said:
And if they "differ," whose system is judged to be better? God's or man's?

Oh Clare, we are capable of judging rightly, at least in the comparison between a justice system that has a one-size-fits-all policy of infinite torture versus one that scales the punishment to fit the crime.

And please don't stoop to flattery.

Clare73 · Nov 21, 2021

Clare73 said:
And if they "differ," whose system is judged to be better? God's or man's?

You're too intelligent for this drivel.

Shrewd Manager said:
Oh Clare, we are capable of judging rightly, at least in the comparison between a justice system that has a one-size-fits-all policy of infinite torture versus one that scales the punishment to fit the crime.

And please don't stoop to flattery.

Non-responsive to the specific question presented. . .

Hvizsgyak · Nov 21, 2021

MMXX said:
"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

Not saying that the Sumerian Creation story is exactly the same as God's Creation but could it have been a more in depth telling of God's justice, why He wanted to destroy mankind and finally, .why Jesus had to die on the Cross. Jesus gave His life for the sins of humankind so humankind could live on. If you don't see the similarities then just burn this post and act like you never saw it. :oldthumbsup:

The Epic of Atraḥasis - Livius

This is the Sumerian Flood Story (with summary at the beginning).

Ceallaigh · Nov 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
Non-responsive to the specific question presented. . .

Isn't nonresponsive what doctors say when someone's in a coma or dead?

Clare73 · Nov 22, 2021

MMXX said:
Isn't nonresponsive what doctors say when someone's in a coma or dead?

Dunno'. . .are you saying "responsive" applies to only one thing?

The Liturgist · Nov 22, 2021

MMXX said:
Isn't nonresponsive what doctors say when someone's in a coma or dead?

“Unresponsive,” although some unresponsive states are reversible. For example, an opiod overdose can be reversed in many cases with Narcan, which first responders now carry with them; a cardiac arrest due to ventricular fibrillation is another thing which can be fixed with defibrilators, and there are even protocols for treating aystole (however, only 5% of persons who have asystole outside of a hospital have a good outcome).

Jeff Saunders · Jun 7, 2022

Hmm said:
I agree that there is a common perception that universalists emphasise God's love and forget that He's also holy and just. But I don't think that's true. It's just that they think that God can't be divided up into opposing parts such that some of His actions are loving e.g. in salvation and some are about justice and wrathful.

They rather see all of God’s actions as motivated by "holy love". Everything God does is holy, completely just, and completely loving.

So whatever being wrathful and hell is about it must be compatible not only with justice but also with love. Which means that it must, in some way, have the good of those in hell as part of its rationale, which is obviously not possible with ECT.(Eternal Conscious Torment).

Universalists feel that the error with ECT or annihilationism is that while they make much of God justice and wrath they are incompatible with His love and, as a result, they divide up the unity of His nature.

I see Gods wrath as his love burning away those things that are harming and destroying the objects of his love.

FredVB · Jan 24, 2023

Jeff Saunders said:
I see Gods wrath as his love burning away those things that are harming and destroying the objects of his love.

God is good, perfectly. The good of God includes God's justice, just as it includes God's love. We were created to live perfectly obedient to God. We haven't and we don't, there are believers who don't even want to try. Christ came and bore everything for the justice for our sins, that only God is capable of bearing, that those in Christ with their faith and being sealed by God are delivered from. It remains still for those who are not in Christ. God works in believers that they would be removed from sin, which should not just go on.

Der Alte · Jan 24, 2023

Jeff Saunders said:
I see Gods wrath as his love burning away those things that are harming and destroying the objects of his love.

Is that what God did in Genesis 19:24-29?

Clare73 · Jan 24, 2023

FredVB said:
God is good, perfectly. The good of God includes God's justice, just as it includes God's love. We were created to live perfectly obedient to God. We haven't and we don't, there are believers who don't even want to try. Christ came and bore everything for the justice for our sins, that only God is capable of bearing, that those in Christ with their faith and being sealed by God are delivered from. It remains still for those who are not in Christ. God works in believers that they would be removed from sin, which should not just go on.

You do realize this post is over 6 months old, being in response to a post six months older than it, right?

Jeff Saunders · Jan 24, 2023

Der Alte said:
Is that what God did in Genesis 19:24-29?

Ezekiel 16:53 God will restore them. That’s the problem with too much of people who are Christians they only look at the small here and now and not the big picture God will restore all things even sodom and gommora.

Der Alte said:
Is that what God did in Genesis 19:24-29?

Der Alte · Jan 24, 2023

Jeff Saunders said:
Ezekiel 16:53 God will restore them. That’s the problem with too much of people who are Christians they only look at the small here and now and not the big picture God will restore all things even sodom and gommora.

Wrong application of scripture. Those that God destroyed in the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah were NOT captives. They were destroyed.

Ceallaigh · Jan 24, 2023

Aaron112 said:
Is that your own question now ?

No.

Aaron112 said:
Do you wonder about this ?

Not particularly.

Aaron112 said:
Jesus delivers some unto judgment, and Jesus delivers some from judgment.

Those who bring a false gospel like UR are delivered to judgment in the resurrection.

UR is a secondary doctrine, not a gospel.

And just because I'm not ignorant of it, does not mean that I agree with it.

Aaron112 · Jan 25, 2023

MMXX said:
UR is a secondary doctrine, not a gospel.

It is , and /or is part of, a false gospel leading to destruction, not part of nor leading to life.

Did Jesus save us from God?

Blood-bought

JimD

Blood-bought

JimD

Blood-bought

JimD

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

Blood-bought

Traditional Liturgical Christian

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Regular Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Blood-bought

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

May God be with you and bless you.

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