Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Der Alte

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Clearly, I grasp this, that the three persons mentioned in verse ten are the only ones who get "for ever and ever." This is NOT repeated for the mass of the "lost."
Please explain "proleptic," as I have never encountered the word before.
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

And he told them that because they had never performed an act of charity. Whereas those who did simply perform an act of charity received eternal life for it. If you're going to take one verse of a passage literally, you're going to have to take the entirety of the passage literally.​
 
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Major1

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So are you teaching that only believers souls will exist in the afterlife? If not, then there's no such thing as a dead man in that respect.

Funny thing how the rich man was able to ask Abraham for mercy considering he was dead eh?

Did I say that Maxx?

Did I say that "only believers souls will exist in the afterlife".

NO I did not and you know that I did not!!!

Every soul has eternal life according to the Bible BUT you already knew that!!!

Belivers will live eternally in heaven and nonbelievers will live eternally in the Lake of Fire.

Yes.....his body dies BUT his soul went to Torments......But you knew that as well!
 
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Major1

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First, I am neither a Pharisee nor a Sadducee.

Second, I adhere to the doctrine that the Bible taught me, using my God-given common sense and curiosity. We are instructed to be workmen with the Word, and to rightly divide it, not just to accept and affirm what our religious authorities offer. Do you not remember the praise given to the Bereans?

I never said you were now did I???

I just posted a Scripture. Do you have a guility consciouse or did the Holy Spirit convict YOU???

YES I do and that it what I do.

Now would you please list the "Religious thoughts or opinions" which I have posted without Scriptures.
 
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Major1

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And he told them that because they had never performed an act of charity. Whereas those who did simply perform an act of charity received eternal life for it. If you're going to take one verse of a passage literally, you're going to have to take the entirety of the passage literally.​

And the literal part of that Scripture is that Jesus was talking to the JEWS about a coming time when they would be judged which is then seen in the Rev. as the "Judgment of the Nations".
 
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Major1

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Yeah, but you haven't been doing it in a nice way for the most part that I've seen. And what men have they quoted? I don't recall them quoting anything outside of scripture.



Neither of those verses says that it's okay for you to trash others.

And you are saying that siimply because you do not agree with what the Bible says.

So then...you say that I have not been "nice" to you when what you really mean is........"I am angry at you because you prove me wrong with Bible Scriptures".

Showing anyone from the Bible that what they are sayiing on an open forum is not what the Bible says is NOT TRASHING anyone.
 
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Major1

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Remember that I interpret those verses thru the "no-hell, everybody saved" clues that I first began to notice in Genesis 1:1 and onward. I would need scores of pages to explain it all fully to you, and my manuscript runs to over 240 pages. However, I have no doubt that if I did so, you would reject it out of hand.

So, I remind myself of this:

What the informant said to Franz Boas in 1920

long ago her mother
had to sing this song and so
she had to grind along with it
the corn people have a song too
it is very good
I refuse to tell it

[from "Shaking the Pumpkin" edited by Jerome Rothenberg, page 3]

You are absolutely correct. Your opinions simply do not need me to approve of them. They are yours.

The Bible is the word of God and I will agree with it in every single case.

Many people love the idea of heaven but hate the idea of hell. Many people believe in heaven; fewer believe in hell. The Bible, however, is clear that hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. Hell is not simply, as many would have it, a place where only people like Hitler wind up. The truth is that all of us deserve hell because we have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). God has declared that the just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, then sin against an eternal being deserves eternal punishment. Physical death, then, can't be a sufficient payment for eternal sin. The payment must also be infinite and eternal.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I never said you were now did I???

I just posted a Scripture. Do you have a guility consciouse or did the Holy Spirit convict YOU???

YES I do and that it what I do.

Now would you please list the "Religious thoughts or opinions" which I have posted without Scriptures.

I just wanted to be clear...but not in the Scientological sense. ;)

No "guility consciouse" here.

Now, why should I list my thoughts/opinions? I already told you, round-about, that I refuse. Besides, your last sentence leaves me wondering what you meant, exactly.

The nice thing about UR is that it is a fail-safe position. You can carry on being a damnationist for the rest of your life, and still go to the Kingdom of Heaven. Again, what's not to like?
 
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Lazarus Short

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You are absolutely correct. Your opinions simply do not need me to approve of them. They are yours.

The Bible is the word of God and I will agree with it in every single case.

Many people love the idea of heaven but hate the idea of hell. Many people believe in heaven; fewer believe in hell. The Bible, however, is clear that hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. Hell is not simply, as many would have it, a place where only people like Hitler wind up. The truth is that all of us deserve hell because we have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). God has declared that the just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, then sin against an eternal being deserves eternal punishment. Physical death, then, can't be a sufficient payment for eternal sin. The payment must also be infinite and eternal.

Please go back and read Genesis 1:1. It's Heaven and Earth, just as we see paired over and over in the Scriptures. Hell is not mentioned in ANY of the places where the Creation is mentioned or described. Further, we never see pairings such as Heaven and Hell or Earth and Hell. Not there. Sorry.

Again, learn to see what you are looking at.
 
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Der Alte

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Please go back and read Genesis 1:1. It's Heaven and Earth, just as we see paired over and over in the Scriptures. Hell is not mentioned in ANY of the places where the Creation is mentioned or described. Further, we never see pairings such as Heaven and Hell or Earth and Hell. Not there. Sorry.
Again, learn to see what you are looking at.
That is only one vs. my Bible has 31,171 more verses including Matt 25:41. The Bible does not say "hell" was created but it certainly says "everlasting fire" was prepared for the devil and his angels. According to Rev 20:10 the "everlasting fire" is the lake of fire.
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​
 
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Lazarus Short

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That is only one vs. my Bible has 31,171 more verses including Matt 25:41. The Bible does not say "hell" was created but it certainly says "everlasting fire" was prepared for the devil and his angels. According to Rev 20:10 the "everlasting fire" is the lake of fire.
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Be aware that I examined every other verse in my very ordinary KJB, and I stand by what I say...but you glossed over it. "Hell" is not mentioned in any creation account. "Everlasting fire" is not hellfire - it is God's Fire.
 
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Hmm

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Just to balance the claim so often made here that the Bible does not teach that all shall be saved, here are 77 verses that seem to do exactly that.

1. “The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.” (1 John 4:14)

2. Jesus is “the Christ, the Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)

3. “This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)

4. Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

5. Jesus “did not come to judge the world but to save the world.” (John 12:47)

6. “Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Heb. 2:9)

7. “Love never fails.” (1 Cor. 13:8)

8. “With God nothing is impossible.” (Luke 1:37)

9. “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)

10. “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should gladly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:10:11)

11. “God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation.” (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)

12. In Jesus Christ is “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)

13. The Gospel is “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” (Luke 2:10)

14. We are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13)

15. God appointed Jesus “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” (Heb. 1:2)

16. “No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him.” (John 6:44)

17. “And I, [Jesus] if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (literally “drag” in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)

18. “As God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God have Him.” (John 17:2)

19. The Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” (John 13:3)

20. Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” (John 1:9)

21. “Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)

22. Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

23. Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)

24. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

25. “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)

26. “All the nations shall be blessed.” (Gal 3:8)

27. “The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world.” (John 6:33)

28. Jesus commanded us to be like Himself and His Father: “Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44, 45)

29. “Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21)

30. “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)

31. “Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

32. Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Co. 1:15, 16)

33. “All shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)

34. “The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)

35. We are not to “repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17) – [because God does not do so, either.]

36. “If anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)

37. “Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)

38. “All Israel will be saved.” (Rom. 11:26)

39. “Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

40. “How blessed is the man whose strength is in You, In whose heart are the highways to Zion! Passing through the valley of Baca [Gehenna] they make it a spring; the early rain also covers it with blessings. They go from strength to strength, Every one of them appears before God in Zion.” (Ps. 84:5-7)

41. “All nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)

42. “When God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)

43. “Mercy shall triumph over (exalt over) judgment.” (James 2:13)

44. “Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

45. “Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

46. “God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)

47. “All nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Ps. 86:9)

48. God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34) [Not, as those who teach Eternal Torment or Annihilation suggest, that his wrath endures forever]

49. God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)

50. God beckons us: “Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After two days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)

51. “The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

52. “The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

53. God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” (Ps. 145:16)

54. God is “gracious in all His works.” (Ps. 145:17)

55. “The earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.” (Ps. 24:1)

56. “All the kings of the earth shall praise you, 0 Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth.” (Ps. 138:4)

57. God “reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him.” (Isaiah 65:1)

58. “The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. ALL your works shall praise you, Oh Lord.” (Ps.145:8-10)

59. “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. All those who go down to the dust (death) shall bow before You.” (Ps. 22:27, 29)

60. “Oh You Who hears prayer, to you all flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them.” (Ps. 65:2-4)

61. “Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. all the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Ps. 66:3, 4)

62. “Through the Lord’s mercies, we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness.” (Lam. 3:21-24)

63. “The Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.” (Lam. 3:31, 32)

64. “For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made.” (Isaiah 57:16)

65. “There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justifed and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25)

66. “In this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces.” (Isaiah 25:6-8)

67. “All the nations of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 18:18)

68. “All the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)

69. “It shall come to pass the saying that is written: ‘death is swallowed up in victory. Oh, Death, where is your sting Oh, Hell (Hades) where is your victory.’ the sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 15:54-58)

70. Of those who crucified Him (which is all of us) Jesus declared: “Father forgive them; for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34)

71. “But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished.” 2 Sam. 14:14

72. Jesus Christ’s blood was shed for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:8)

73. “Sing praise to the Lord, you His godly ones, And give thanks to His holy name. For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning.” (Ps. 30:4-5)

74. “Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting;” (Ps. 136:1-6)

75. “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son..” [John 5:2]

76. Jesus says: “I pass judgment on no one.” [John 8:15]

77. “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” [Romans 11:32]
 
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Saint Steven

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So you are are saying that Jonah DIED in the fish
No.
But it is a good example of literary exaggeration in reference to death.

Jonah 2:2 NIV
He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.
 
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Saint Steven

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And this again is exactly why I encouraged you to not respond to my posts.
That's not a reason. I'm just keeping you honest.

Saint Steven said:
That saw cuts both ways, friend.
Your presuppositions proceed you. - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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GIVE UP Steve.

I know exactly what you are and where you are coming from.
No, if you understood UR you wouldn't be fighting against it.

Saint Steven said:
Just to be clear, I don't expect you to LIKE what I post. My hope is only that you would make an attempt to UNDERSTAND what I post.

We don't seem to be there yet. I haven't given up on you.
 
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Saint Steven

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I have produced more papers and teaching booklets on your opinion than you will be able to read over the last 50 years. I am a died in the wool, old fashioned believer in the written word of God and if you want to continue to post your false thoughts........it is your time but just know that you are never going to change me and my understanding!!!!
Okay. I will speak a little slower and try to enunciate, so I don't lose you. No problem.
 
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Der Alte

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* * * 47. “All nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Ps. 86:9) * * *
There ain't no nations in the grave or hell only dead bodies. You want nations? That has to be done in this life.
* * * 74. “Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting;” (Ps. 136:1-6)
I thought everybody on the "Hell no! team." agreed that there is no word in Hebrew or Greek that means "eternal,""everlasting,""for ever." Oh wait I know Hebrew "olam" and Greek "aionios" only mean "eternal" etc. when it fits UR assumptions/presuppositions.
 
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Ceallaigh

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If your argument is weak you need more VOLUME to make your point.

Plus continual repetitive personal attacks in the form of pejoratives, insults and accusations.
 
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