Love

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

Albion said:
It would seem that way, but that conclusion is based upon a human value system, and it supposes that God is evil if there is anything in past history (the Flood, for instance) that we might consider to be unloving about him.

However, if this is your own standard of judgment...then it is. Those who follow Christ (who made a supreme act of love in order to grant eternal life and fulfillment to sinners), see it differently. And that's probably how things will remain.

In other words, there probably is not much of a chance that any of us is going to be able to "argue" anybody out of one group and into the other.

I understand. I can’t grasp how can anyone reason out mass extinction as an act of love, when we talk about a supposedly all-powerful being Who has a complete command of both the spiritual and physical realms. If it were a human being who has only a limited array of tools within their modest abilities, then maybe. Though in our day and age we value human life above all, and advocate for the abolition of capital punishment, not mentioning Victoria/Washington/Churchill/Hitler/Truman style mass exterminations of innocent people…

Is He Love? Or is He not Love? Can’t be both

Tolworth John · Nov 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
hy? Can’t you show mercy and patience, and go the extra mile?

He did show mercy and patience.
For a hundred years a four hndred foot long Ark was being built.
This was no backyard project built overa weekend.
Noah also preached, he told people what was ging to happen.

Re parrental responcibilities. Your parrents failled in their duty to teach you about God.
The same thing was happening in Noah's day. Yet you blame God for others failures.

Albion · Nov 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
not mentioning Victoria/Washington/Churchill/Hitler/Truman style mass exterminations of innocent people…

Is He Love? Or is He not Love? Can’t be both

I can see that your thread is not actually intended to discuss either love or God.

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

aiki said:
??? No. Consider Islam. Consider Hinduism. Many pagan religions involved fear and horrendous, violent rituals. All religions do not express some view of love.

Why shouldn't it be required by God? Is there a better alternative that He should require instead?

God requires that we be like Him, the One who made us. He created us to love Him, in fact. When we do, we find fulfillment and meaning we can't find in anything else.

Clearly unloving? By what standard? What unloving actions are you thinking of? God is not only loving but also holy and just. Some people think love requires the suspension of holiness and justice but God demonstrates to us that real love, right love, godly love must be holy and just, too.

I have considered Islam and Hinduism. They both teach Love as the main idea for purpose of life, or at least Love is very important. Animal and human sacrifice like it’s portrayed in the Bible aren’t horrendous and violent?

If He is Love and we are to mimic His actions, then in the Bible many of His actions aren’t worth repeating. Would you tell your best friend to go and kill his son as a token of loyalty to you? Never. There you go. You are more loving than the OT God

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

Tolworth John said:
He did show mercy and patience.
For a hundred years a four hndred foot long Ark was being built.
This was no backyard project built overa weekend.
Noah also preached, he told people what was ging to happen.

Re parrental responcibilities. Your parrents failled in their duty to teach you about God.
The same thing was happening in Noah's day. Yet you blame God for others failures.

You are adding to the Genesis story, trying to whitewash God. Building of the Ark of a certain size barely enough for 8 people and pairs of select animals was clear demonstration of intent from get go. There was no attempt to save anyone except Noah and his folks… God said, I regret creating man, so let’s kill them all… Being ompi-potent He did exactly what He promised… There was no choice, no option. There was a verdict and execution.

The ark was a small local event. Considering the size of Pangea and absence of the Internet, the majority of humans wouldn’t have known anything about the upcoming global flood. And even if they were all informed, that’s not enough. God could invent some other method to save them all, there’s nothing He can’t do. He refused to.

My parents taught me what they believed to be true. They haven’t failed me in any way. Most importantly, they stressed independent thinking.

I don’t blame God. I don’t feel the Bible in it’s entirety correctly represents God

Jesus and His teaching, yes - extremely loving

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

Albion said:
I can see that your thread is not actually intended to discuss either love or God.

My main question is about Love. Why does God require Love?

Unloving acts of God are real obstacles in regards to the Bible for me. Some responders, including you, chose to discuss the footnote to my main question, which is great.

Hard and honest questions… I want to understand, to get to the bottom of things.

These discussions are helping to some degree, and I greatly appreciate them. I’m very much grateful to you and all who engage with me here

Maybe my mistake was to lump a question and a difficulty together. To me they are related, but naturally people tend to react to difficulties

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

eleos1954 said:
God's love is a principle .... not an emotion. Love is not sinning. To Love God is a choice ... we are not forced to love God. Love is putting others before self .... something we struggle with.

God’s wrath is neither capricious nor arbitrary. It is aroused against sin, because sin is a rebellion against God’s nature and character (love).

But even in His wrath God remembers mercy (Isa. 54:7, 8); His anger lasts only for a moment (Ps. 30:5); and for His own namesake He does not execute it to the fullest (Isa. 48:9).

Through a manifestation of His anger God wants men and women to come to their senses and turn from their evil conduct (Jer. 36:7; Isa. 42:25; 12:1). Therefore, it is wrong and irresponsible to take the wrath of God and paint a picture of fear in the minds of people.

The awareness of the wrath of God creates new appreciation for God’s love. Sin has placed us in opposition to God. By nature we are objects of His wrath (Eph. 2:3). Justice demands that we receive our punishment, death. And yet God has loved us while we were still His enemies (Rom. 5:8-10). He has so loved us that He made our redemption possible by the death of His Son. His love and mercy gains new depth and meaning when placed against the background of what we deserve!

Another aspect ... the wrath of God shows that God views my individual decision seriously. If I choose to live without God, He does not overrule my decision, but lets me meet the consequences of my choice. (Rom. 1:18).

Gods wrath is the biblical way of proclaiming God’s utter opposition to sin. It tells me that God takes sin seriously and wants to bring it to an end. It creates in me a new appreciation for the cross. It helps me better understand the nature of Christ’s intercessory ministry in heaven and the nature of His final judgment. It builds my confidence in God and gives me grace and assurance to await the final outcome of His purposes at the Second Coming.

The cross ..... God subjected himself to His own wrath, no greater display of love ... lest us not forget that .... ever .... putting self (Himself) before all others.

John 15:13

Berean Study Bible
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

and ..... HE DID! AMEN! Thank you Lord Jesus!

God is love.

What does love look like? On full display by the way Jesus lived His life ending with Him giving up His life for His friends. How wonderful it is to have a friend like that.

Pretty amazing God of the universe sees us as His friends and desires friendship with everyone.

Consider being friends with God and then you will better understand His love.

In my thinking, Love is part of God’s nature. I often or maybe all the time think, why is God loving and why He wants us to express Love, to be loving?

Hard question, I think deeply about it. I try to understand this Universe, why it is the way it is and what purpose and lessons are from God in it for us..

Looking at this world and at life, it seems to me that that Love summarizes life, and hate summarizes death. God wants life to continue. Maybe it’s a primitive view…

Love creates, and hate destroys. And it’s in God’s nature to create. Even though our life is only temporary, its effects could reach beyond this realm and outside of a few years that we live. i don’t know. Kind of interconnectedness of all people, of all life, of all space and time.

Also Love is maybe a higher step of development in our spirit, and God wants us to grow

I have many more thoughts about Love, why God requires it…… I don’t know if any of it makes sense…

Not sure we can understand it… Accept it, yes, as it feels right. But see the whole picture is very hard.

Also I think maybe some sophisticated people think that they understand Love, but are greatly confused. Or simpler people get it more than anybody. As Jesus said, be like children…

eleos1954 · Nov 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
In my thinking, Love is part of God’s nature. I often or maybe all the time think, why is God loving and why He wants us to express Love, to be loving?

Hard question, I think deeply about it. I try to understand this Universe, why it is the way it is and what purpose and lessons are from God in it for us..

Looking at this world and at life, it seems to me that that Love summarizes life, and hate summarizes death. God wants life to continue. Maybe it’s a primitive view…

Love creates, and hate destroys. And it’s in God’s nature to create. Even though our life is only temporary, its effects could reach beyond this realm and outside of a few years that we live. i don’t know. Kind of interconnectedness of all people, of all life, of all space and time.

Also Love is maybe a higher step of development in our spirit, and God wants us to grow

I have many more thoughts about Love, why God requires it…… I don’t know if any of it makes sense though…

Not sure we can understand it though… Accept it, yes, as it feels right. But see the whole picture is very hard.

Also I think maybe some sophisticated people think that they understand Love, but are greatly confused. Or simple people get it more than anybody. Like Jesus said, be like children…

I think we can understand it ... it's just we struggle with being able to constantly to do it .... I can really relate to Paul here ....

Romans 7

Struggling with Sin

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Rather profound ;o)

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

eleos1954 said:
I think we can understand it ... it's just we struggle with being able to constantly to do it .... I can really relate to Paul here ....

Romans 7

Struggling with Sin

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Rather profound ;o)

Yes sin vs. law of God. Can sin be motivated by love sometimes? Today I read of 80 men looting a department store in San Francisco… Definitely a sin… But then I’m thinking, maybe some of them have no money to pay rent and they love their kids so much, they don’t want them to become homeless… Or people fighting in a war, hurting and killing enemy soldiers. Sin as sin can be. They believe they’re protecting their families (well at least on one side), so they are motivated by love.

Not always black and white.

Why does Gos require Love from us? No doubt about it

You say that God Is Love, that Jesus showed Love, yes it’s clear…

But why we are requred??

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

lsume said:
I can honestly say that until I experienced God The Father’s Love, I didn’t understand. His Perfect Love is essential towards your rebirth as I understand it.

I son’t understand what you’re saying exactly…

Why is Love required of us?

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

Petros2015 said:
Love is a funny, indefinable, limitless thing. When they say that God is Love, they are correct. You rarely know what it is, you only know what it is not. It does what it needs to do.

Great definition… Why Love is required? What it needs to do and why?

eleos1954 · Nov 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
Yes sin vs. law of God. Can sin be motivated by love sometimes? Today I read of 80 men looting a department store in San Francisco… Definitely a sin… But then I’m thinking, maybe some of them have no money to pay rent and they love their kids so much, they don’t want them to become homeless… Or people fighting in a war, hurting and killing enemy soldiers. Sin as sin can be. They believe they’re protecting their families (well at least on one side), so they are motivated by love.

Not always black and white.

Why does Gos require Love from us? No doubt about it

You say that God Is Love, that Jesus showed Love, yes it’s clear…

But why we are requred??

because love (putting others before self) is what overcomes sin ... Jesus overcame it that very way

People choose violence for many "reasons" ... we live in a very complicated confused world. Indeed there are people who are oppressed and need help and we should help them .... there are also people who commit violent acts for violence's sake (just plain evil). How does one reach out to this kind of a person?

Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

I see a lot of this going on ...

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

I just want so much for the Lord to come back and end this mess! Some day He will I know ... and I look forward to that day! I rest in Him, knowing He has conquered all evil. In the meantime, the gospel goes out ... until just before He returns and He takes us home ... we are but sojourners here on earth.

1 Chronicles 29:15

New Living Translation
We are here for only a moment, visitors and strangers in the land as our ancestors were before us. Our days on earth are like a passing shadow, gone so soon without a trace.

We wait until He takes us home.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Petros2015 · Nov 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
Great definition… Why Love is required? What it needs to do and why?

Because love is the proper response to love
And anything else is treachery
Think of it like an electrical circuit
You are the bulb
Creation, life, the starry sky
...All this is given
Give back
...And you'll see the Light

aiki · Nov 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
I have considered Islam and Hinduism. They both teach Love as the main idea for purpose of life, or at least Love is very important.

Oh? Does killing or subjugating the non-Muslim infidel sound like love to you? Does burning a widow on the funeral pyre of her dead husband sound like love to you? Not to me.

James_Lai said:
Animal and human sacrifice like it’s portrayed in the Bible aren’t horrendous and violent?

God nowhere in the Bible commands human sacrifice. And in the one instance with Abraham where it appears that God is, maybe, requiring such a thing, He provides an animal sacrifice instead. So, the Bible nowhere commands human sacrifice and, in fact, directly prohibits such an evil. Animals are not humans bearing the imago dei, able to interact with, and, in a small way, understand God. They are a lower order of creature God has made and, while we shouldn't be unnecessarily cruel to them, it is not evil or immoral to deal with them in a way we never would with our fellow human beings (eating them, sacrificing them, clothing ourselves with their skins, etc).

James_Lai said:
If He is Love and we are to mimic His actions, then in the Bible many of His actions aren’t worth repeating.

We are to follow God's example where it is humanly possible and appropriate to do so. As the Maker and Sustainer of All Things, God has unique prerogatives, power over life and death, the right to issue moral commands to us, that no human possesses. He has wisdom, knowledge and character that we don't have. And so, there are distinct limits to our being like Him. There is, though, no action God takes in the Bible that is immoral or worthy of reproach. Only one who is thinking of God as just another human would think otherwise.

James_Lai said:
Would you tell your best friend to go and kill his son as a token of loyalty to you? Never.

Jehovah was Abraham's God, Abraham's Maker, and the Sustainer of his life at every moment. Jehovah had given Abraham his son, Isaac, too. As Giver of All Life, God has the unique prerogative to also be its Taker. While it would be murder for another human to force Abraham to kill his son, God is in another category of being altogether and is, therefore, never guilty of murder when He takes directly, or commands another to take, the life He has created. And, in any case, God did not require Abraham to go so far as to kill his son. If He had, God could easily have restored Isaac's life.

James_Lai said:
There you go. You are more loving than the OT God

Good grief. This is childish reasoning, friend. You are making a glaring category error: God is not a human being.

lsume · Nov 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
I son’t understand what you’re saying exactly…

Why is Love required of us?

I don’t think you can get through the first death without it at some point. This is a very Spiritual experience. Seek and ye shall find is a promise. Worry won’t help. It will be very natural when you are ready.

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

eleos1954 said:
because love (putting others before self) is what overcomes sin ... Jesus overcame it that very way

People choose violence for many "reasons" ... we live in a very complicated confused world. Indeed there are people who are oppressed and need help and we should help them .... there are also people who commit violent acts for violence's sake (just plain evil). How does one reach out to this kind of a person?

Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

I see a lot of this going on ...

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

I just want so much for the Lord to come back and end this mess! Some day He will I know ... and I look forward to that day! I rest in Him, knowing He has conquered all evil. In the meantime, the gospel goes out ... until just before He returns and He takes us home ... we are but sojourners here on earth.

1 Chronicles 29:15

New Living Translation
We are here for only a moment, visitors and strangers in the land as our ancestors were before us. Our days on earth are like a passing shadow, gone so soon without a trace.

We wait until He takes us home.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

I don’t know if Love in our reality is an absolute… Like a cat who catches a mouse for her kittens, so loving and caring, but for the mouse it’s evil. Or when somebody prays to God for a job and gets it, somebody else gets rejected for the same job and commits a suicide losing all hope… People compete for limited resources, and some win and many lose. We cut forests down to build houses, but then there’s no trees to convert CO2 into oxygen and the future generations risk global warming… What’s love for one, is evil and death for another.

There seems no way we can show love without hurting something or somebody. Those criminals who commit the worst of crimes, spend time in prison and come out because they are treated humanely, to only commit even more crimes… So capital punishment is loving?

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

Petros2015 said:
Because love is the proper response to love
And anything else is treachery
Think of it like an electrical circuit
You are the bulb
Creation, life, the starry sky
...All this is given
Give back
...And you'll see the Light

Response, to give back… Gratitude? What’s the initial underlying motivation for Love to start with? If we imagine a world where not a single Loving act was ever done

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

aiki said:
Oh? Does killing or subjugating the non-Muslim infidel sound like love to you? Does burning a widow on the funeral pyre of her dead husband sound like love to you? Not to me.

God nowhere in the Bible commands human sacrifice. And in the one instance with Abraham where it appears that God is, maybe, requiring such a thing, He provides an animal sacrifice instead. So, the Bible nowhere commands human sacrifice and, in fact, directly prohibits such an evil. Animals are not humans bearing the imago dei, able to interact with, and, in a small way, understand God. They are a lower order of creature God has made and, while we shouldn't be unnecessarily cruel to them, it is not evil or immoral to deal with them in a way we never would with our fellow human beings (eating them, sacrificing them, clothing ourselves with their skins, etc).

We are to follow God's example where it is humanly possible and appropriate to do so. As the Maker and Sustainer of All Things, God has unique prerogatives, power over life and death, the right to issue moral commands to us, that no human possesses. He has wisdom, knowledge and character that we don't have. And so, there are distinct limits to our being like Him. There is, though, no action God takes in the Bible that is immoral or worthy of reproach. Only one who is thinking of God as just another human would think otherwise.

Jehovah was Abraham's God, Abraham's Maker, and the Sustainer of his life at every moment. Jehovah had given Abraham his son, Isaac, too. As Giver of All Life, God has the unique prerogative to also be its Taker. While it would be murder for another human to force Abraham to kill his son, God is in another category of being altogether and is, therefore, never guilty of murder when He takes directly, or commands another to take, the life He has created. And, in any case, God did not require Abraham to go so far as to kill his son. If He had, God could easily have restored Isaac's life.

Good grief. This is childish reasoning, friend. You are making a glaring category error: God is not a human being.

I understand you, though in some cases I don’t agree.

What I liked very much is that you mentioned that we are made in the image of God. I think a lot a lot about it. I’m not sure I accept it. Though it’s a very interesting idea. I’m not sure we’re different from or superior to animals or even plants or bacteria.

I think, in what way can we be an image of God? Do we share His consciousness, is our spirit-soul-body a manifestation of what He is in a smaller scale? Like 5 fingers and not 4 like dogs have (if we ignore dewclaws) or symmetrical body and the brain consisting of two hemispheres and also layered like an onion from very high reasoning to very primitive reptilian amygdala and hypothalamus etc.

Is there only a spiritual overlap, likeness, or it goes beyond? Like in the garden of Eden, God was walking in the coolness of the day and actually had to look for the hiding Adam and Eve. Anthropomorphic?

We are small tiny speck in the Universe and are capable to change a small corner of it where we live, especially when we combine our efforts with many more creatures like ourselves. Is our God in the same way, very limited and has control over a small section of existence? Are there countless Gods living in a society like ours? And our God being part of a huge family of Gods, each controlling a different sector of the physical Universe? Or maybe there’s a super God above our God?

BTW, I’ve been to Winnipeg and I love the city and the province. A flight attendant once said “Welcome to Winterpeg” arriving from a relatively warm Toronto with green grass to a full-on snowy winter.

James_Lai · Nov 22, 2021

lsume said:
I don’t think you can get through the first death without it at some point. This is a very Spiritual experience. Seek and ye shall find is a promise. Worry won’t help. It will be very natural when you are ready.

So mystical… First death? Like physical death?

lsume · Nov 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
So mystical… First death? Like physical death?

If you read the Bible, it is a guide to God The Father. There is only one way to Him. You must go through Christ Jesus His only begotten Son. Since it seems that you have not yet been visited by Christ, look for Him. In so looking you will try to be obedient to The Word. You will understand more as you legitimately seek. If that be your case, I pray for you.

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