The word “murder” means “kill” in the King James Bible (Bible Study)

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Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
 
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It comes from here:Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Paul is referring to the 613 Laws of Moses in the Old Testament (or Old Covenant) as a whole package deal or complete contract (covenant), and he is not referring to the Laws of Christ.

“To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.”
(1 Corinthians 9:21).​

Yes, certain laws out of the Old Law have been repeated (or carried over) into the New Covenant, but we follow the commands primarily that come from Jesus and His followers and not the Laws of Moses. This is what you fail to understand. Paul clearly says he is not without the law to God in that he is under the law to Christ. Paul only appears to be without law to those people who are without law to gain them for Christ.

For Paul basically says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Tell me, is the person who thinks they can sin and still be saved… being humble? I don’t think so. Sin is all about being proud.
 
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Bob_1000

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So which Belief Alone interpretation do you take on 1 John 3:9?
#1. Are you saying that a believer will not practice sin as a way of life?
#2. Are you saying that when a believer sins, that God does not see His sin because of the blood of Jesus?
Neither of those are right because both of those methods of reasoning apply to the FIRST BORN (the flesh) and 1 John 3:9 is talking about the SECOND BORN (the spirit). The concept of sin doesn't even exist in the NEW MAN and never will exist because the new man's seed (spiritual DNA) will always remain in the believer for his entire earthly life.

All people enter this world tied to, or as Paul put's it ,"married to" the flesh. That means we are born under the law of the flesh (10 commandments). Once that man has been crucified with Christ, we are freed from the old man's law and come under the law of the NEW HUSBAND (law of liberty).

You do realize what 1 John 3:10 says, right?

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

How does this work with your kind of belief?
For what if a believer one day does not love his brother?
Was he never saved to begin with?
Is not the committing of certain sins simply a lack of not loving your neighbor according to Romans 13:8-10?
You're coming at this verse with the works salvation mindset. You see it as - if I ever do an unrighteousness act then I'm a child of the devil.

In that view, the old man that was crucified with Christ is reborn every time I do an unrighteous act. Then when I do a righteous act the old man is crucified again and the NEW MAN is born again... over and over and over. And then when you die, if you're lucky, the old man will be dead so that you can enter into heaven.

1 John 3:10 only gives the characteristics of a child of the devil - a person who does not do righteous acts and doesn't love his neighbor. The opposite of that would be the characteristics of child of God, someone that does do righteous act and loves his neighbor.

I like how the Good News Translation clarifies what the KJB is saying here. It says,

“Someone will say, "I am allowed to do anything." Yes; but not everything is good for you. I could say that I am allowed to do anything, but I am not going to let anything make me its slave.” (1 Corinthians 6:12) (GNT).

This is the best interpretative view on this verse because Paul says a few verses up.
I'm sure you do like this translation because it completely eliminates "All things are lawful for me" which is the part of the KJV that you don't agree with.
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (KJB).
If you think those verses are talking about YOUR works of righteousness you are sadly mistaken. We are not fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers etc. because those things apply to the OLD MAN that was crucified with Christ. That man DOES NOT exist in the believer's life, he's dead and gone forever.
So Paul is not saying that all things are lawful for him in the sense that he can sin and still be saved because he has a belief alone in Jesus. Paul just said that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul just said for us to not be deceived on the matter that fornicators, thieves, covetous, drunkards, etc. shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Meaning, they will not be saved, but they will be condemned.
Paul is saying "All things are lawful for me" because all things were lawful for him and everyone else that has put on the NEW MAN and come under the law of liberty.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
 
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Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

I believe James 2:10 is referring to the Royal Law of love (James 2:8), or the Law of liberty (James 2:12) (Which is New Covenant Law or a part of the Law of Christ). So James 2:10 is in context to loving others. That is what James is talking about. The Law of loving others. For the brethren James is writing to was having respect of persons in that they were showing only favor to the rich brethren and not showing any favor to the poor brethren. They were not being loving. Hence, why James said what he did. They were offending in the point in regards to the law of love, and not just any Law. In other words, they are breaking all of God’s laws if they are offending in one point in context to the law of love.

But you or another might protest and say that all the Law and the prophets hinge on the greatest two commandments (Which is to love) (Matthew 22:36-40).

So this sounds like an, Ah, ha, I gotcha! kind of moment.
So this truly looks like an open and shut case.

But is it?

Remember the Canaanite woman who kept being pushy with Jesus? (See: Matthew 15:21-28).

Why is her story important with this topic?

Well, there are three reasons why.

#1. God Said It, and That’s The Final Word.
#2. Rules of Exception.
#3. Real World Examples.

I. God Said It, and That’s The Final Word.

“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.” (Matthew 15:24-26).

If this was all that was written in the Canaanite woman’s story, we could quickly assume that there was no other word to conclude on the matter and God’s word was final and that was it. But what if Scripture spoke elsewhere about another truth that explained more? Anyways, it is good thing we have the full story so we don’t have to look elsewhere in God’s Word, but the point here is that the Canaanite woman did not take Jesus’ words as being the final word, but she kept pushing and seeking His help based on a truth she knew. My point here is that while James 2:10, and Matthew 22:36-40 sound definitive and the last word on the subject, it is hardly the case when we look at other verses honestly and plainly.

II. Rules of Exception.

“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.” (Matthew 15:27).

The unexpected happened. Here was a woman who offered a truth that was true. She gave a clause of exception. We know that Jesus said great was her faith and her daughter was made whole that very hour. But imagine if she just took Jesus’ word as the final authority and felt that was it? She would move on and be sad and without hope for her daughter. Good thing she knew about other truths in life. Good thing she new there were rules of exception to what Jesus was saying. Thus, we have to look at James 2:10 in light of other verses and real life that there may be a rule of exception (and I believe there is).

III. Real World Examples.

Jesus gave a real world example to the Canaanite woman.

“But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.”
(Matthew 15:26).​

The Canaanite woman replied also with a real world example that complimented Jesus’ example.

“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”
(Matthew 15:27).​

Jesus’ reply was not,

“Hold your peace! Only the Son can make parables, or life examples, and not the children of this world!”
However, Jesus’ reply to the Canaanite woman was…

“O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.” (Matthew 15:28).

So Jesus accepted her parable or real world example. This means we can make parables or real world examples, too. Why is this important to your denial of “sins that do not lead unto death” outside of 1 John 5:16-17? Well, because life teaches us that there are crimes in this life that do not deserve the death penalty. This is important to understand because the Lord accepts parables or real world examples from us as acceptable truth and He looks at it as our having faith and trust in Him. For God has established certain truths in the real world to also guide us and to confirm what His Word says. If this was not the case, then Jesus would condemn the Canaanite woman’s extended parable.

The Verses That Support Sins Not Unto Death:
(Outside of 1 John 5:16-17):

Anyways, so what verses offer a clause of exception on James 2:10, and Matthew 22:36-40?

#1. Whoever shall break the least of these commands (i.e. the Lord Jesus’s least commands at the sermon on the mount, etc.) and teach others so shall be called least in the kingdom of God (Matthew 5:19).

#2. In the AMP translation of Matthew 5:22, we get a clear picture of two verbal sins towards our brother that leads to punishment in earthly courts, but in calling our brother a fool (which suggests an extreme hatred towards them), we are in danger of hellfire. So Jesus implies a distinction between two sins that do not condemn us in the afterlife, and the one that can. For Jesus does not say the first two sins leads to punishment in the afterlife, but only punishment here upon this Earth.

#3. Accidental manslaughter and being able to flee to cities of refuge (Deuteronomy 19:1-13); Contrast this with intentional murder which results in capital punishment (See: Deuteronomy 19:21, Numbers 35:31).

#4. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#5. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death. Side Note: Yes. It is true. I do hold to a possible alternative interpretation on 1 Peter 3:21 supporting Spirit baptism as the one baptism in Ephesians 4:5. Check out this post here
 
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Neither of those are right because both of those methods of reasoning apply to the FIRST BORN (the flesh) and 1 John 3:9 is talking about the SECOND BORN (the spirit). The concept of sin doesn't even exist in the NEW MAN and never will exist because the new man's seed (spiritual DNA) will always remain in the believer for his entire earthly life.

So you are saying a believer can be like George Sodini and murder a bunch of people and take his own life and yet claim from their previous writings that they would be saved (despite what they did) by simply having a belief alone on Jesus?

All people enter this world tied to, or as Paul put's it ,"married to" the flesh. That means we are born under the law of the flesh (10 commandments). Once that man has been crucified with Christ, we are freed from the old man's law and come under the law of the NEW HUSBAND (law of liberty).

This is entirely made up. No verses or passage actually says these ridiculous things.
The Old Covenant Law officially ended with Christ’s death upon the cross.
For this is why the temple veil was torn from top to bottom letting us know that the Laws on the priesthood and the animal sacrifices had ended (Which is tied to the 613 Laws of Moses).
The Law of liberty is not a license to sin.

“He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:28-29).

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26).

You said:
You're coming at this verse with the works salvation mindset.

And you are approaching the Scriptures with a committing of grievous sin and still be saved mindset (Which the Bible does not teach).

You said:
You see it as - if I ever do an unrighteousness act then I'm a child of the devil.

1 John 3:8 says, “He that committeth sin is of the devil;”

You said:
In that view, the old man that was crucified with Christ is reborn every time I do an unrighteous act. Then when I do a righteous act the old man is crucified again and the NEW MAN is born again... over and over and over. And then when you die, if you're lucky, the old man will be dead so that you can enter into heaven.

You don’t understand grace. God’s grace is not a license to sin. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). In Jude 1:4, we learn about those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.

You said:
1 John 3:10 only gives the characteristics of a child of the devil - a person who does not do righteous acts and doesn't love his neighbor. The opposite of that would be the characteristics of child of God, someone that does do righteous act and loves his neighbor.

The outward characteristics is one way to tell if they are truly of God or not. Before you implied by your words we can sin and still be saved. If that is the case, then this contradicts 1 John 3:10.

You said:
I'm sure you do like this translation because it completely eliminates "All things are lawful for me" which is the part of the KJV that you don't agree with.

I agree that the words “All things are lawful for me” belongs in the King James Bible, but I believe Paul was quoting a popular phrase of those around him who said such things at that time. It does not mean he was in agreement with those words because a couple of verses above he mentioned various types of sinners and how they will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

You said:
If you think those verses are talking about YOUR works of righteousness you are sadly mistaken. We are not fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers etc. because those things apply to the OLD MAN that was crucified with Christ. That man DOES NOT exist in the believer's life, he's dead and gone forever.

So you are saying you can sin and still be saved. That’s turning God’s grace into a license for immorality which is directly forbidden in Jude 1:4.

You said:
Paul is saying "All things are lawful for me" because all things were lawful for him and everyone else that has put on the NEW MAN and come under the law of liberty.

Again, Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. Paul does not have a split personality. He meant what he said a few verses above in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Paul would be contradicting himself if he meant all things are lawful for me as meaning he can sin and still be saved. Paul specifically mentioned various sinners in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and said that they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul even said for us to not be deceived on this matter.

You said:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Which Law?

The Old Testament Law of Moses. Read the context of that chapter and you will see Paul talking about circumcision. See: Romans 4:9-12. Also, see Romans 3:1. Paul asks the question, what profit is there in circumcision? Circumcision is something given in the Old Testament Law of Moses.

See, this is what you fail to understand. Gentile Christians were told by the Jewish council in Acts of the Apostles 15 that they did not have to be circumcised to be saved and to keep the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is the Old Law. Just read Acts of the Apostles 15 and read really slowly the following verses (Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
 
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Bob_1000

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In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:
You should rewrite that first statement to "In defending what I want the true meaning of Romans 7 to be:". The true meaning of Romans 7 is exactly what Romans 7 says, it's not up to anyone's interpretation.

Start right here with Rom 7:2 and defend your position by explaining what "the law of her husband" is. You don't need to post 500 out of context verses to support you're thought process. Just answer the simple question: What is the law of the woman's husband?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Don't go translation hoping to find words from a PERVERTED version that supports your ideas because verse 6 makes it clear that the woman was delivered from the ENTIRE LAW and not just the adultery part.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 
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You should rewrite that first statement to "In defending what I want the true meaning of Romans 7 to be:". The true meaning of Romans 7 is exactly what Romans 7 says, it's not up to anyone's interpretation.

Start right here with Rom 7:2 and defend your position by explaining what "the law of her husband" is. You don't need to post 500 out of context verses to support you're thought process. Just answer the simple question: What is the law of the woman's husband?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Don't go translation hoping to find words from a PERVERTED version that supports your ideas because verse 6 makes it clear that the woman was delivered from the ENTIRE LAW and not just the adultery part.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Again, Paul is referring to the Old Law in context and not all forms of Law like the Laws of Christ.
You also love to quote 1 Corinthians 6:12 in how all things are lawful for me, but you again fail to understand this truth here:

To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
(1 Corinthians 9:21).

We know the Corinthians were being lawless in the fact that they were justifying the sins of strife and envy in 1 Corinthians 3:3, and how they accepted a believer in their midst who openly justified in sleeping around with one’s step mother (1 Corinthians 5). Paul said not to keep company (have fellowship) with any brother who is a fornicator, etc.

So Paul is speaking to them (the Corinthians) who are acting without law. But Paul says that he is not without the law to God, but he is under the law to Christ. Meaning, Paul is not lawless as you claim. Paul is speaking to those who are without law in 1 Corinthians 6:12.
 
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You should rewrite that first statement to "In defending what I want the true meaning of Romans 7 to be:". The true meaning of Romans 7 is exactly what Romans 7 says, it's not up to anyone's interpretation.

Start right here with Rom 7:2 and defend your position by explaining what "the law of her husband" is. You don't need to post 500 out of context verses to support you're thought process. Just answer the simple question: What is the law of the woman's husband?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Don't go translation hoping to find words from a PERVERTED version that supports your ideas because verse 6 makes it clear that the woman was delivered from the ENTIRE LAW and not just the adultery part.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We know for a FACT that Paul is not talking about all forms of Law in Romans 7 because 1 John 3:23 is a law or commandment to believe on Jesus Christ. Can you be saved by not believing in Jesus Christ?
 
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You should rewrite that first statement to "In defending what I want the true meaning of Romans 7 to be:". The true meaning of Romans 7 is exactly what Romans 7 says, it's not up to anyone's interpretation.

Start right here with Rom 7:2 and defend your position by explaining what "the law of her husband" is. You don't need to post 500 out of context verses to support you're thought process. Just answer the simple question: What is the law of the woman's husband?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Don't go translation hoping to find words from a PERVERTED version that supports your ideas because verse 6 makes it clear that the woman was delivered from the ENTIRE LAW and not just the adultery part.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

In Romans 7: We know for a FACT that Paul is talking about the OLD LAW (the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or contract deal and not individual commands that have been repeated into the New Covenant) because…. Romans 8:2 says this:

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

So the keeping of one law (NT Law) makes me free from the Law of sin and earth (i.e. the Old Law).

The Law of sin and death is clearly the Old Law because you could be stoned or killed for not obeying the Old Law (i.e. the Law of Moses).

What is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? It’s defined for you in the verse above.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

This verse is neutered in Modern Translations. They removed the part that says walk not after the flesh (sin) but after the Spirit.

Flesh is in reference to sin because Galatians 5:19-21 says,

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
 
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Bob_1000

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Again, Paul is referring to the Old Law in context and not all forms of Law like the Laws of Christ.
You also love to quote 1 Corinthians 6:12 in how all things are lawful for me, but you again fail to understand this truth here:

To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
(1 Corinthians 9:21).

We know the Corinthians were being lawless in the fact that they were justifying the sins of strife and envy in 1 Corinthians 3:3, and how they accepted a believer in their midst who openly justified in sleeping around with one’s step mother. Paul said not to keep company (have fellowship) with any brother who is a fornicator, etc.

So Paul is speaking to them (the Corinthians) who are acting without law. But Paul says that he is not without the law to God, but he is under the law to Christ. Meaning, Paul is not lawless as you claim. Paul is speaking to those who are without law of any kind in 1 Corinthians 6:12.
None of these bible passages contradict the others so it would be really nice if you would just stick to one passage for discussion. Do you want to discuss Romans 7 or 1 Corinthians 9:21 right now?
 
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None of these bible passages contradict the others so it would be really nice if you would just stick to one passage for discussion. Do you want to discuss Romans 7 or 1 Corinthians 9:21 right now?

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). So all the Bible relates to itself and breathes as a cohesive whole. But if you were to check, I posted two points on Romans 7 after my point on how you distort 1 Corinthians 6:12. For you have to ignore 1 Corinthians 9:21 to make your sin and still be saved interpretation work for 1 Corinthians 6:12. You also have to ignore 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 in order to make your sin and still be saved interpretation work for 1 Corinthians 6:12.
 
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You should rewrite that first statement to "In defending what I want the true meaning of Romans 7 to be:". The true meaning of Romans 7 is exactly what Romans 7 says, it's not up to anyone's interpretation.

Start right here with Rom 7:2 and defend your position by explaining what "the law of her husband" is. You don't need to post 500 out of context verses to support you're thought process. Just answer the simple question: What is the law of the woman's husband?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Don't go translation hoping to find words from a PERVERTED version that supports your ideas because verse 6 makes it clear that the woman was delivered from the ENTIRE LAW and not just the adultery part.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Stop and think for a moment. Matthew 7:22-23. Most in your camp think that the believer who worked iniquity was cast out because because they did wonderful works. But the passage does not say that. If you were to skip on down to verses 26-27, Jesus makes it clear that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). So Jesus was speaking of the fact that those who were cast out because they worked iniquity is because they did not do what Jesus said.

And Paul is in agreement with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

But if a sin and still be saved type belief is true, then there is no godliness because it is a form of turning God’s grace into a license to sin.
 
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In Romans 7: We know for a FACT that Paul is talking about the OLD LAW (the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or contract deal and not individual commands that have been repeated into the New Covenant) because…. Romans 8:2 says this:

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

So the keeping of one law (NT Law) makes me free from the Law of sin and earth (i.e. the Old Law).
What is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? It’s defined for you in the verse above.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

This verse is neutered in Modern Translations. They removed the part that says walk not after the flesh (sin) but after the Spirit.

Flesh is in reference to sin because Galatians 5:19-21 says,

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
I've read all this and I still don't know what you're answer to "what is law of the husband" is.
 
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Stop and think for a moment. Matthew 7:22-23. Most in your camp think that the believer who worked iniquity was cast out because because they did wonderful works. But the passage does not say that. If you were to skip on down to verses 26-27, Jesus makes it clear that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). So Jesus was speaking of the fact that those who were cast out because they worked iniquity is because they did not do what Jesus said.

And Paul is in agreement with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

But if a sin and still be saved type belief is true, then there is no godliness because it is a form of turning God’s grace into a license to sin.
Jesus was quoting Psalms 6. The workers of iniquity are THE ENEMIES of Jesus.... Do you think one becomes an enemy of Jesus Christ whenever he commits a sin?

Psa 6:7 Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.
Psa 6:8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.
 
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I've read all this and I still don't know what you're answer to "what is law of the husband" is.

Paul is making a comparison between marriage law and how that does not apply if one’s husband dies. It’s analogous of how when Christ died, He set us free from the Old Law. So it’s in reference to the Old Law (or the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal and not individual commands that have carried over into the New Covenant). It’s why Paul said, what profit is there in circumcision? It’s because circumcision was a part of the Old Law. Paul was recounting his experience as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24 in how he used to think as a Jew under the false Pharisee religion that focused on trying to be saved by WORKS ALONE without God’s grace.

Again, in Romans 8:2, keeping the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the law of sin and death.

The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is New Covenant Law.
The Law of sin and death is the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole.
Keeping the New Covenant Law in Romans 8:2 makes us free from the Old Law.
 
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Jesus was quoting Psalms 6. The workers of iniquity are THE ENEMIES of Jesus.... Do you think one becomes an enemy of Jesus Christ whenever he commits a sin?

Yes. Jesus said in Matthew 13:41-42 that the Son of man will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend and do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Tares can sometimes look like wheat, but Jesus said we know false prophets by their fruit (i.e. deeds) in Matthew 7.

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

You said:
Psa 6:7 Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.
Psa 6:8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

Workers of iniquity is anyone who lives a life of sin or who justifies sin. So if a believer sins and thinks they are saved while they sin, they are a worker of iniquity. For all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). Revelation 21:8 does not say there is another group of liars like some lying believers who are exempt in being cast into the Lake of Fire.
 
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Paul is making a comparison between marriage law and how that does not apply if one’s husband dies.
It’s analogous of how when Christ died, He set us free from the Old Law. So it’s in reference to the Old Law(or the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal and not individual commands that have carried over into the New Covenant).
It’s why Paul said, what profit is there in circumcision? It’s because circumcision was a part of the Old Law. Paul was recounting his experience as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24 in how he used to think as a Jew under the false Pharisee religion that focused on trying to be saved by WORKS ALONE without God’s grace.

Again, in Romans 8:2, keeping the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the law of sin and death.

The Law of the Spirit of Christ Jesus is New Covenant Law.
The Law of sin and death is the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole.
Keeping the New Covenant Law in Romans 8:2 makes us free from the Old Law.
Ok you are agreeing that the law of the husband is the "old law". So in Paul's analogy using the law to illustrate how we are freed from the law, what does the husband represent in the believer?
 
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Yes. Jesus said in Matthew 13:41-42 that the Son of man will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend and do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Tares can sometimes look like wheat, but Jesus said we know false prophets by their fruit (i.e. deeds) in Matthew 7.

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).



Workers of iniquity is anyone who lives a life of sin or who justifies sin. So if a believer sins and thinks they are saved while they sin, they are a worker of iniquity. For all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). Revelation 21:8 does not say there is another group of liars like some lying believers who are exempt in being cast into the Lake of Fire.
I have shown you a verse that defines workers of iniquity as the enemies of Jesus Christ, can you show me a verse that defines workers of iniquity as "anyone who lives a life of sin or who justifies sin."?
 
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Ok you are agreeing that the law of the husband is the "old law". So in Paul's analogy using the law to illustrate how we are freed from the law, what does the husband represent in the believer?

Okay. Very simple here.
The Law = The Old Testament Law of Moses.
The husband = Jesus who died for our sins (Whereby Jesus loosed us from the Old Law and not all forms of Law like 1 John 3:23, Romans 8:2, and 1 Corinthians 9:21).
The woman = the bride of Christ (Who must be a faithful virgin until the risen Christ returns for His bride).

Nowhere do the Scriptures teach you can be unfaithful to the Lord and still be saved. That's only your imagination working over time along with the popular candy coated version of Christianity preached today.
God cannot agree with a person's sin.
Jesus' grace does not give us a license to sin (See: Jude 1:4).
 
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Okay. Very simple here.
The Law = The Old Testament Law of Moses.
The husband = Jesus who died for our sins (Whereby Jesus loosed us from the Old Law and not all forms of Law like 1 John 3:23, Romans 8:2, and 1 Corinthians 9:21).
The woman = the bride of Christ (Who must be a faithful virgin until the risen Christ returns for His bride).

Nowhere do the Scriptures teach you can be unfaithful to the Lord and still be saved. That's only your imagination working over time along with the popular candy coated version of Christianity preached today.
God cannot agree with a person's sin.
Jesus' grace does not give us a license to sin (See: Jude 1:4).
The second husband is Christ, but I'm asking who was the first husband of the believer? The first husband had to die and then Christ could legally become the 2nd husband.... What had to die before Christ could become the new husband?
 
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