Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Ceallaigh

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It is not Biblical! It is a World view.

It is Biblical though. You just don't agree with the interpretation of the scripture it's based on.

I'm not entirely sure if it's a correct interpretation myself. But I've seen that it has scriptural backing and seems to hold water alright.
 
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Der Alte

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MMXX said:
Rubbish. I've heard John MacArthur and other preachers (usually Calvinists) say eternal conscious torment plenty of times.
MMXX said:
The EOB New Testament is a new translation of the official Greek Orthodox text called the Patriarchal Text of 1904. It is a scholarly, fully Orthodox, and easy to read version that aims at being the text of reference for personal study, devotions, and even liturgical use within among English-speaking Orthodox Christians. This translation features: - extensive footnotes to variants from other manuscripts and alternative translations
https://www.amazon.com/EOB-Orthodox-Testament-Patriarchal-extensive/dp/148191765X
Ah yes the ubiquitous "other preachers" the UR blanket term that covereth a multitude of sins.
What is your point? Have you actually read any of the "extensive footnotes" etc?
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We beheld his glory, glory as a Father’s uniquely-begotten,[fn] son, full of grace and truth
...
18 No one has seen God at any time. The uniquely-begotten[fn] Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained him.
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Jn 1:18). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
[fn]r “uniquely loved on account of [his] origin,” and “only begotten.” Also translated “one and only,” or “unique.” See Appendix C for a more complete discussion.​
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Jn 1:14). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​
 
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Major1

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It is Biblical though. You just don't agree with the interpretation of the scripture it's based on.

I'm not entirely sure if it's a correct interpretation myself. But I've seen that it has scriptural backing and seems to hold water alright.

Well....post a couple of water tight Scriptures and lets see what we can do with them.
 
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Major1

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I've pointed out other possible interpretations of some scripture you've posted. An interpretation of scripture that differs from yours, does not amount to rejecting scripture.



I'm not seeing where Jude is saying what you said.


Major1 said:
No sir. The Bible is the complete word of God. As such there as no prophecies to be given.

Teaching...YES.
Prophecies.NO.

Before the canon of Scripture was complete, God used prophets to maintain order and teach correct doctrine. After the canon was completed, however, prophecy began to be more of a problem than a help.

Really???

Here it is again from the KJV 1900 ......
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that nye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Saint Steven

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NO sir. There is NO mercy after death.

If so.........Post those Scriptures instead of opinions.

John 3:16 and Romans 10:8 and Acts 16:31 have nothing to do whatsoever with merccy after death so why use them Steve???
Try this on for size. Note the "under the earth" in Phil.2:10 refers to the realm of the dead. (in the afterlife) Therefore mercy in the afterlife.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)
 
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Saint Steven

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The Lake of Fire.

‘And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.’

, Revelation 20:15
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 
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Der Alte

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Saint Steven said:
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire. *** .
This is the epitome of dishonest scripture misinterpretation.
UR-ites try to convince reasoning Christians that this means everyone, will be saved.
No matter how many times they are corrected, almost on a daily basis this verse is posted as proof that all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, will be saved, no matter what, even after death.
What does "salted with fire," actually mean.
Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Numbers 18:19
19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.​
The salt does not make the offering clean/acceptable the offering must be clean/acceptable before it is offered. The salt does not save and it does not make the unclean, clean.
Romans 12:1
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.​
Note the sacrifice must already be holy, acceptable to God.
It does not say "present your bodies a living sacrifice" then God will salt it and make it holy, acceptable unto God."
Read the Bible not just the UR laundry list of out-of-context proof texts.
 
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Hmm

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This is the epitome of dishonest scripture misinterpretation.

You must be very annoyed indeed at the thought of universal restoration to accuse it's proponents of dishonesty so, to go back to the OP, why is that?
 
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Ceallaigh

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Really???

Here it is again from the KJV 1900 ......
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that nye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I was trying to prompt you to comment on the passage some. How and why you see Jude's warning against Gnosticism having to do with contemporary Christian prophets?
 
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Der Alte

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You must be very annoyed at the thought of universal restoration to accuse it's proponents of dishonesty. To go back to the OP, why is that?
Not at all. If anyone UR-ite, or other, deliberately misquotes/misrepresents scripture, as in the current instant to promote their particular belief system, I consider that dishonest. If you think I am mistaken in what I posted in post #2310, above, then address the post NOT my character.
Note my post I addressed what I consider to be dishonest scripture misrepresentation not the character of the poster. You might try that.
There is another out-of-context scripture, that involves fire, which the Hell no! crowd post regularly vs. 15 in the passage 1 Corinthians 3:9-17.
Although I have addressed this passage many times I can almost guarantee not one UR-ite can state what my objection is.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Ah yes the ubiquitous "other preachers" the UR blanket term that covereth a multitude of sins.
What is your point? Have you actually read any of the "extensive footnotes" etc?
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We beheld his glory, glory as a Father’s uniquely-begotten,[fn] son, full of grace and truth
...
18 No one has seen God at any time. The uniquely-begotten[fn] Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained him.
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Jn 1:18). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
[fn]r “uniquely loved on account of [his] origin,” and “only begotten.” Also translated “one and only,” or “unique.” See Appendix C for a more complete discussion.​
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Jn 1:14). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Cleenewreck isn't Greek. You said it was compiled by native Greeks.
 
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Hmm

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Although I have addressed this passage many times I can almost guarantee not one UR-ite can state what my objection is.

UR-wrong.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Correct. PLEASE do not follow me. Read the Scriptures and obey God for that is the command of God not me.

Differing from the word of God is rection of God.

Amos 2:4,
"...they have
despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments...

2 Chronicles 36:16 .......
" But they mocked God’s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the
wrath of the LORD was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

That has nothing to do with having a view of UR. UR is simply one of many eschatological views. That some folks overreact to.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Although I have addressed this passage many times I can almost guarantee not one UR-ite can state what my objection is.

When you address a group using disparaging terms and telling them they're full of rubbish and so on... do you actually expect them to follow what you have to say? Hmm has been mighty patient, but others have you on ignore because they got tired of being insulted.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Someone who believes in universal reconciliation can be Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal and so on. And all of their views, with the exception of UR, can be very orthodox and comply with their denomination's statement of faith. It's highly likely that most "universalists" keep it to themselves outside of anonymously posting their beliefs on the internet.
 
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Ceallaigh

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History before it happens is found all throughout the Scriptures. One such relevant verse is what the Lord said he will say to some people:

"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

Jesus could not have been more clear in stating that some people will end up in eternal fire. This should be enough to refute universalism, but there are many other proofs as well:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life "(Matt. 25:46).

What else was Jesus very clear on in Matthew 25:31-46? Didn't Jesus say quite clearly that if you simply perform an act of charity you will receive eternal life?
 
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