The word “murder” means “kill” in the King James Bible (Bible Study)

Bible Highlighter · Nov 19, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Murder is always killing, but killing is not always murder...also depends on how the words harag or ratzakh are used and in what context...

In Old Testament terms, this would be true. But as I am sure you will agree, by the time Jesus came on to the scene with His New Covenant teachings, this began to change. For 1 John 3:15 says that to even hate one’s brother is to be a murderer (Which lines ups with Christ’s teaching in Matthew 5:21-22 in how He expressed that hating one’s brother with one’s words can lead to punishment in earthly courts, and or even more intense hatred of one’s brother by one’s words can lead to condemnation in hellfire (and punishment is not just the result of physical murder as a part of the Exodus 20:13 command given to the Israelites at Mount Sinai)).

Bible Highlighter · Nov 19, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
If murder is the same as killing then why, according to the law, is the murder put to death but someone who kills someone accidentally is not out to death?

What is murder? It is the killing of another person or the taking of the life of another person unlawfully and it is done usually (not always) out of malice or hatred of another. At the heart… murder is killing or the taking of another’s life. But does that mean I think there is a form of killing that is not murder? Yes. I agree that there is a form of killing mentioned in Scripture that is not murder like God telling His people to execute justice. So the situation with the man accidentally killing somebody is not murder. For was Exodus 20:13 in view of this? Or was Exodus 20:13 more in reference to pre-meditative hateful and unlawful taking of life (i.e. murder)? I believe Exodus 20:13 is in reference to murder, but the fact that it was not translated as murder in the King James Bible does not mean it is not an incorrect rendering of the text. I believe the KJB to be the pure Word of God and it should be our final Word of authority. For Modern Translations cannot be our final word of authority. But just because the KJB uses archaic older words or phrases does not invalidate the truthfulness behind those words. Just because something is not as clear or easily understood does not invalidate the truth of something. For Jesus spoke in parables, etc.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 19, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
If murder is the same as killing then why, according to the law, is the murder put to death but someone who kills someone accidentally is not out to death?

Jesus actually partially references the 10 commandments in Matthew 19:18. He said to the young rich ruler, “Thou shalt do no murder” (Which is a reference to “Thou shalt not kill” in Exodus 20:13). The word “murder” even appears in the Old Testament, too. So what exactly do you think “murder” is and how is that different than the Exodus 20:13 command?

Jamdoc · Nov 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
If you were to read all of my OP or post #1, I said,

“While I am not saying that the killing by God’s people in the Old Testament under God’s command is murder, my point is that murder at the heart involves some form of killing or taking another life (with some added details). Meaning murder is unlawful killing which usually (not always) has some kind of malice attached. But if you are still in doubt, lets establish by Scripture how the word “kill” can mean “murder.” ~ Bible Highlighter - post #1.

So this does mean that I think there is a form of killing that falls outside of murder (obviously). My point is that there are believers who strangely think that the command in Exodus 20:13 is not referring to murder and there other believers who oddly think that Exodus 20:13 is mistranslated in the King James Bible and should say murder and not kill (as if to suggest that murder is not a form of killing or to suggest that killing was not in context to unlawful killing of one’s neighbor). I disagree with both of the views expressed by these believers.

As for self defense:

Well, I believe in the Old Testament, an Israelite could employ self defense whereby one could render an eye for an eye, etc.; But I believe these things have changed when Jesus came and He taught us a new and higher way of loving others (with His New Covenant teachings, of which we read about in the gospel of Matthew, etc.). To learn more of this teaching in Scripture, check out this CF thread here:

Nonresistance as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

I was not born again yesterday. I am very familiar for a long time about the Israelite who accidentally killed their neighbor could escape into cities of refuge. I already stated in this thread that I am not in disagreement with that in post #7.

Again, not in disagreement with this truth. I already stated this NT teaching by pointing out 1 John 3:15 in post #6.

I think I get it now, I guess your order of words was suggesting to broaden the definition of murder to include other forms of killing without malice like self defense or manslaughter, but that wasn't your intent, you were more trying to narrow the definition of what sinful killing was to being specifically what we'd call murder, which I agree with.
I probably wouldn't have been confused if the title had been "in the King James Bible, "kill" means "murder"" I guess, reversing the order would have made your intent more clear.

Bob_1000 · Nov 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
What is murder? It is the killing of another person or the taking of the life of another person unlawfully and it is done usually (not always) out of malice or hatred of another. At the heart… murder is killing or the taking of another’s life. But does that mean I think there is a form of killing that is not murder? Yes. I agree that there is a form of killing mentioned in Scripture that is not murder like God telling His people to execute justice. So the situation with the man accidentally killing somebody is not murder. For was Exodus 20:13 in view of this? Or was Exodus 20:13 more in reference to pre-meditative hateful and unlawful taking of life (i.e. murder)? I believe Exodus 20:13 is in reference to murder, but the fact that it was not translated as murder in the King James Bible does not mean it is not an incorrect rendering of the text. I believe the KJB to be the pure Word of God and it should be our final Word of authority. For Modern Translations cannot be our final word of authority. But just because the KJB uses archaic older words or phrases does not invalidate the truthfulness behind those words. Just because something is not as clear or easily understood does not invalidate the truth of something. For Jesus spoke in parables, etc.

This thread is about murder and killing meaning exactly the same thing in the King James bible yet in the reply you made here, you are saying that murder and killing are not the same.

You said:
"But does that mean I think there is a form of killing that is not murder? Yes. I agree that there is a form of killing mentioned in Scripture that is not murder like God telling His people to execute justice."

Bob_1000 · Nov 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus actually partially references the 10 commandments in Matthew 19:18. He said to the young rich ruler, “Thou shalt do no murder” (Which is a reference to “Thou shalt not kill” in Exodus 20:13). The word “murder” even appears in the Old Testament, too. So what exactly do you think “murder” is and how is that different than the Exodus 20:13 command?

We all know what murder is, it's the willful ,malicious, premeditated KILLING of some one. Look at what Jesus is doing here:

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Is Jesus telling the rich young ruler that he can enter into eternal life by keeping the commandments? No he's not because nobody gains eternal life by keeping the commandments. Jesus is using the commandments to help the rich young ruler identify his HEART problems that are preventing him from entering into eternal life.

Is "thou shalt not accidentally kill" a heart problem? No it isn't, but it's still forbidden in the law.
Is "thou shalt not MURDER" a heart problem? Yes it is and that's exactly why Jesus chose that FORM of killing to present to the rich young ruler.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I think I get it now, I guess your order of words was suggesting to broaden the definition of murder to include other forms of killing without malice like self defense or manslaughter, but that wasn't your intent, you were more trying to narrow the definition of what sinful killing was to being specifically what we'd call murder, which I agree with.
I probably wouldn't have been confused if the title had been "in the King James Bible, "kill" means "murder"" I guess, reversing the order would have made your intent more clear.

My apologies if my words were not clear.
Anyways, I am glad you were able to get what I was saying.
May you be strong in the Lord and the power of His might.

Blessings to you and your family from the Lord Jesus.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
This thread is about murder and killing meaning exactly the same thing in the King James bible yet in the reply you made here, you are saying that murder and killing are not the same.

You said:
"But does that mean I think there is a form of killing that is not murder? Yes. I agree that there is a form of killing mentioned in Scripture that is not murder like God telling His people to execute justice."

Yes. I believe there is a form of killing that is not murder. This would be God executing justice, this would be the man who accidentally killed their neighbor and they would have to escape to a city of refuge, etc. But my point is that before you implied that Exodus 20:13 command cannot refer to murder (Which I cannot for the life of me think why you would say that). It’s obvious it is referring to murder in Exodus 20:13. The fact that it was not translated as murder does not mean it is a mistranslation or neither does it mean the KJB is not perfect, either. The KJB is still the pure Word of God (or at the least, the most purest Word we have available to us who speak and write English).

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
We all know what murder is, it's the willful ,malicious, premeditated KILLING of some one. Look at what Jesus is doing here:

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Is Jesus telling the rich young ruler that he can enter into eternal life by keeping the commandments? No he's not because nobody gains eternal life by keeping the commandments. Jesus is using the commandments to help the rich young ruler identify his HEART problems that are preventing him from entering into eternal life.

First, let me establish that no man can save themselves by Works ALONE Salvationism without first being saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. This being saved by God’s grace generally includes believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and in seeking forgiveness of one’s sinful state with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) and in receiving Him (John 1:12). I believe Paul argued against Works ALONE Salvationism in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5, etc. (which was by the 613 Laws of Moses). In Acts of the Apostles 15: At the Jerusalem council we learn that certain Jews were trying to deceive Gentile Christians into first being circumcised to be initially saved and to also keep the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 laws given to Israel) (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). I call this heresy “Circumcision Salvationism.” For if a person thought they had to be initially circumcised to be saved, they would be making the Law, or works the basis of their salvation (Instead of having faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior). Paul also fought against this heresy, as well. Paul said in Galatians 5:2, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Second, Jesus said, “but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” These words are still true by our Lord.

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23).

So please take no offense, but I see your words here as simply being made up in an attempt to explain away the words of Jesus. Nowhere does it say in the text what you just said. On the contrary, the chapter ends with saying this:

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.” (Matthew 19:23-30).

Several take aways here (from this passage above).

#1. Hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.
#2. The disciples had forsaken all to follow Jesus.
#3. Forsaking houses, brethren, sisters, etc. for Christ’s name sake shall receive an hundredfold (i.e. a hundred times) and shall inherit everlasting life.

Side Note: Keep in mind that Zacchaeus was only willing to give away half of his goods to the poor; and if he had taken any thing from any man by false accusation, he restore to him fourfold (i.e. four times).

Then there is Luke 10:25-28.

“And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

Notice Jesus’ response or answer to the lawyer’s answer in that we must love God and our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life.

Jesus did not say….

“Wrong Lawyer! You cannot save yourself by doing anything for the kingdom of God.”

Jesus actually said:

“Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:28).

This simply shows that Jesus agrees that we need to obey the Lord as a part of salvation. Granted, Sanctification is something that will happen after we are saved by God’s grace, but we know by Scripture that 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says that the call of the gospel is… God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:14 is saying this is a call of the gospel, but this is not the message of the gospel. The message of the gospel that gets us initially saved is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Sanctification of the Spirit (living holy by God’s power) is answering the call of the gospel and it is a part of God’s continued plan of salvation for us (after we are saved by His grace without the deeds of the Law - Ephesians 2:8-9).

You said:
Is "thou shalt not accidentally kill" a heart problem? No it isn't, but it's still forbidden in the law.
Is "thou shalt not MURDER" a heart problem? Yes it is and that's exactly why Jesus chose that FORM of killing to present to the rich young ruler.

Again, Jesus was quoting partially from the 10 commandments as a reference. So when Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder in Matthew 19, he was referring to the Exodus 20:13 command that says, Thou shalt not kill. They are saying the same thing.

Again, you implied before that Exodus 20:13 is not a command about murder. But yet, Jesus appears to reference this command. Also, how do you explain the difference between murder and kill and then also reconcile Exodus 20:13 as not being in reference to murder? It makes no sense. Clearly Exodus 20:13 is in reference to murder. For I do not think that the Exodus 20:13 command was given to the person who accidentally kills somebody because the whole point of a command is to obey it willfully. If we break a command and do not in any way intend to break that command, we are not really at fault if it was truly an accident. The whole point of the command was so that we can obey it. So I don’t believe accidental manslaughter is in view as a part of the Exodus 20:13 command.

Bob_1000 · Nov 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes. I believe there is a form of killing that is not murder. This would be God executing justice, this would be the man who accidentally killed their neighbor and they would have to escape to a city of refuge, etc. But my point is that before you implied that Exodus 20:13 command cannot refer to murder (Which I cannot for the life of me think why you would say that). It’s obvious it is referring to murder in Exodus 20:13. The fact that it was not translated as murder does not mean it is a mistranslation or neither does it mean the KJB is not perfect, either. The KJB is still the pure Word of God (or at the least, the most purest Word we have available to us who speak and write English).

I don’t remember saying Exodus 20:13 couldn’t include murder because my whole point is that Exodus 20:13 forbids killing of any kind including murder.

The false bibles changed that to murder because they don’t understand God nor the Bible in any way shape or form. The 10 commandments are the law for individuals and how they are to treat one another.... “THOU shalt not kill”.

There’s a whole other set of laws for the national matters like the avenger of blood or for going to war.

Paul tells us the purpose the law here.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Bob_1000 · Nov 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
First, let me establish that no man can save themselves by Works ALONE Salvationism without first being saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. This being saved by God’s grace generally includes believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and in seeking forgiveness of one’s sinful state with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) and in receiving Him (John 1:12). I believe Paul argued against Works ALONE Salvationism in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5, etc. (which was by the 613 Laws of Moses). In Acts of the Apostles 15: At the Jerusalem council we learn that certain Jews were trying to deceive Gentile Christians into first being circumcised to be initially saved and to also keep the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 laws given to Israel) (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). I call this heresy “Circumcision Salvationism.” For if a person thought they had to be initially circumcised to be saved, they would be making the Law, or works the basis of their salvation (Instead of having faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior). Paul also fought against this heresy, as well. Paul said in Galatians 5:2, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Second, Jesus said, “but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” These words are still true by our Lord.

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23).

So please take no offense, but I see your words here as simply being made up in an attempt to explain away the words of Jesus. Nowhere does it say in the text what you just said. On the contrary, the chapter ends with saying this:

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.” (Matthew 19:23-30).

Several take aways here (from this passage above).

#1. Hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.
#2. The disciples had forsaken all to follow Jesus.
#3. Forsaking houses, brethren, sisters, etc. for Christ’s name sake shall receive an hundredfold (i.e. a hundred times) and shall inherit everlasting life.

Side Note: Keep in mind that Zacchaeus was only willing to give away half of his goods to the poor; and if he had taken any thing from any man by false accusation, he restore to him fourfold (i.e. four times).

Then there is Luke 10:25-28.

“And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

Notice Jesus’ response or answer to the lawyer’s answer in that we must love God and our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life.

Jesus did not say….

“Wrong Lawyer! You cannot save yourself by doing anything for the kingdom of God.”

Jesus actually said:

“Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:28).

This simply shows that Jesus agrees that we need to obey the Lord as a part of salvation. Granted, Sanctification is something that will happen after we are saved by God’s grace, but we know by Scripture that 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says that the call of the gospel is… God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:14 is saying this is a call of the gospel, but this is not the message of the gospel. The message of the gospel that gets us initially saved is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Sanctification of the Spirit (living holy by God’s power) is answering the call of the gospel and it is a part of God’s continued plan of salvation for us (after we are saved by His grace without the deeds of the Law - Ephesians 2:8-9).

Again, Jesus was quoting partially from the 10 commandments as a reference. So when Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder in Matthew 19, he was referring to the Exodus 20:13 command that says, Thou shalt not kill. They are saying the same thing.

Again, you implied before that Exodus 20:13 is not a command about murder. But yet, Jesus appears to reference this command. Also, how do you explain the difference between murder and kill and then also reconcile Exodus 20:13 as not being in reference to murder? It makes no sense. Clearly Exodus 20:13 is in reference to murder. For I do not think that the Exodus 20:13 command was given to the person who accidentally kills somebody because the whole point of a command is to obey it willfully. If we break a command and do not in any way intend to break that command, we are not really at fault if it was truly an accident. The whole point of the command was so that we can obey it. So I don’t believe accidental manslaughter is in view as a part of the Exodus 20:13 command.

Sorry but I do not debate about works salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Sorry but I do not debate about works salvation.

Well, the idea of a person’s good deeds outweighing their bad deeds cannot be found in Scripture. No man can save themselves by their Works ALONE. So I don’t believe in Works Salvationism (i.e. Works ALONE Salvationism). I believe we are saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally by faith in Jesus Christ and believing the gospel, and seeking forgiveness with Him. Sanctification can only follow after being saved by God’s grace and that is not a process of salvation that is the foundation of our eternal life like God’s grace. For if a believer happens to by chance fall into sin (without intending to do so), they go to God’s grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9), and they do not do a good work to redeem themselves of that sin.

But what do you do with verses like the Parable of the Talents whereby the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? (See: Matthew 25:30). What do you do with Paul’s words that say that a person can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work? (See: Titus 1:16). What do you make of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14? What about Hebrews 12:14-15? How can you change these verses in good conscience? I cannot. They mean what they say plainly.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Sorry but I do not debate about works salvation.

But you know the opposite side of that coin, right? If it’s all grace, and a belief alone in Jesus, then the way one lives does not matter.

Sorry to say this, but I think this kind of belief is not just unbiblical but shameful, careless and dirty in its entire content. Imagine a person who thinks he was already saved and destined to heaven no matter what he will do, whether he do evil or not. Remember what happened in LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009? When a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,

“this guy” (Alan “Rick” Knapp) “teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him.“

And in a post dated August 3, 2009, Sodini said;

“Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for every sin, so how can I or you be judged by GOD for a sin when the penalty was already paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.

After the horrible incident in Pennsylvania, Pastor Knapp’s deacon, Jack Rickard commented on Sodini’s death and said;

“George is going to heaven, but he’s not going to get his rewards,” (SOURCE )

Kenneth Nally, another believer of this unscrupulous doctrine, committed suicide in 1980 after he was taught that even self-murder would not stop a person once saved from going to heaven.

I also remembered a certain time when I tried to ask a Born Again pastor who preaches about the assured salvation. I asked him, “Pastor. If doing good works is unnecessary for salvation so that I decided to cease from giving my tithes, am I still saved?” The pastor answered and said, “Definitely not, son. If you will cease from giving your tithes and offerings, you will become a robber, because the Bible said, ‘ye rob God’.” See??? Born Again and many Baptist and Evangelical pastors who hold this kind of shameful doctrine are just after to our tithes! They don’t care about our salvation. They don’t care whether we will become evil or not, but what matters most is our money. They telling their members that in salvation, good works are unnecessary things, except the giving of tithes and donations!

Source used:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
I don’t remember saying Exodus 20:13 couldn’t include murder because my whole point is that Exodus 20:13 forbids killing of any kind including murder.

You said, in another thread (post #1069), I quote:

Bob_1000 said:
Kill doesn’t mean murder, murder is a form of killing. God said thou shalt not KILL and people were judged and forced to stay in the city of refuge until the high priest died even if they accidentally killed someone.

Jos 20:5 And if the avenger of blood pursue after him, then they shall not deliver the slayer up into his hand; because he smote his neighbour unwittingly, and hated him not beforetime.

Jos 20:6 And he shall dwell in that city, until he stand before the congregation for judgment, and until the death of the high priest that shall be in those days: then shall the slayer return, and come unto his own city, and unto his own house, unto the city from whence he fled

You said “kill” doesn’t mean murder. Then you said it is a form of killing (Which is contradictory to the first statement you made). But if we are to go by your first statement you made: You are saying the Exodus 20:13 command is not referring to murder (Which is a serious error). Now you are saying it can include murder. So it looks like you are simply changing your tune here. Also, if Exodus 20:13 can include murder but it is not really primarily about murder alone, then what on Earth is it talking about?

You said:
The false bibles changed that to murder because they don’t understand God nor the Bible in any way shape or form. The 10 commandments are the law for individuals and how they are to treat one another.... “THOU shalt not kill”.

No. It means murder, and they were correct in translating it as such. It is actually a more clearer meaning of how we would understand that command today. But like I said, just because something is not as clear does not mean that the KJB is not perfect or pure. The Modern Translationist or OAO Proponent (Original Autograph Only Believer) who really hates KJV-Onlyism (with a passion) can get nit picky over verses like Exodus 20:13. They will see all kind of things in the KJB (King James Bible) as an error when it’s obvious it’s not an error. It’s because it’s a spiritual issue.

You said:
There’s a whole other set of laws for the national matters like the avenger of blood or for going to war.

Paul tells us the purpose the law here.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Actually, we can love Jesus by keeping His commandments, too (See: John 14:15, and John 15:10). Paul says if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (See: 1 Corinthians 16:22). Is a person who is accursed… saved? Is not the correct way to love Jesus according to the Bible is to keep His commandments?

Bob_1000 · Nov 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, the idea of a person’s good deeds outweighing their bad deeds cannot be found in Scripture. No man can save themselves by their Works ALONE. So I don’t believe in Works Salvationism (i.e. Works ALONE Salvationism). I believe we are saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally by faith in Jesus Christ and believing the gospel, and seeking forgiveness with Him. Sanctification can only follow after being saved by God’s grace and that is not a process of salvation that is the foundation of our eternal life like God’s grace. For if a believer happens to by chance fall into sin (without intending to do so), they go to God’s grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9), and they do not do a good work to redeem themselves of that sin.

But what do you do with verses like the Parable of the Talents whereby the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? (See: Matthew 25:30). What do you do with Paul’s words that say that a person can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work? (See: Titus 1:16). What do you make of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14? What about Hebrews 12:14-15? How can you change these verses in good conscience? I cannot. They mean what they say plainly.

Every one of those verses mean exactly what they plainly say and they apply ONLY to the flesh which for the believer has been put to death with Christ.

Born again believers fall under this category:

1Jn 3:9 (KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And this category:

1Co 6:12 (KJV) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Every one of those verses mean exactly what they plainly say and they apply ONLY to the flesh which for the believer has been put to death with Christ.

That makes absolutely no sense. First, there is no verse or passage that says what you just said. It’s entirely made up. Yes, Jesus died for our sins, but…

The Bible teaches only past sins are forgiven us (not future sins).

Believers need to confess and
forsake sin to continue to obtain forgiveness (or salvation).

Here are the verses in the Bible that teach or imply that past sins only are forgiven:

2 Peter 1:9 KJB
“But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.”

2 Peter 1:9 BLB
“For in whomever these things are not present, he is blind, being short sighted, having received forgetfulness of the purification from his former sins.”

1 John 1:9 KJB
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Acts of the Apostles 8:22 KJB
“Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.”

Hebrews 10:26 KJB
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”

Proverbs 28:13 KJB
“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.”

Romans 6:22-23 KJB
22 “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Romans 8:13 KJB
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJB
9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

John 3:20 KJB
“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”

1 John 3:15 KJB
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

1 John 3:8 KJB
“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11 KJB
1 “But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”

Matthew 10:33 KJB
“But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”

Matthew 6:15 KJB
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

Revelation 22:12-15 KJB
12 “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”

Second, believers must first be saved by God’s grace before they can even obey the Lord in the Sanctification Process in living holy by the Spirit. I believe Jesus focused much on the Sanctification Process after we are saved by God’s grace. So my question is to you: Why would Jesus teach a secondary aspect of salvation (Sanctification) that includes keeping the commandments in Matthew 19, and Luke 10 if that is not how salvation operates after the cross? It would seem kind of pointless for Christ to teach this kind of continued way of salvation just so as to have this teaching quickly done away with after He died upon the cross. For we know that Christ’s death officially began the New Covenant or New Testament.

Three, while we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is simply not true. For the moment I tell someone that all they need to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus and nothing else, they are going to not be concerned with living holy (because they do not think it is necessary to enter God's Kingdom).

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Every one of those verses mean exactly what they plainly say and they apply ONLY to the flesh which for the believer has been put to death with Christ.

So you are trying to tell me that Christ was put to death for the believer’s sins in the Parable of the Talents whereby the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness in Matthew 25:14-30? Meaning, a believer can be completely fruitless for the Lord in this life and be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus?

Your trying tell me that Christ was put to death for the sins of the believer in being a vain deceiver in that he denies God by being reprobate unto every good work in Titus 1:16? Meaning, a believer can deny God by his works in this life and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus?

It seems kind of unbelievable that this is the case.
Why would Jesus warn of the unprofitable servant at a judgment if He was to quickly undo this with an easier way of salvation after the cross?
Why would Paul also appear to contradict our Lord’s teachings with Titus 1:16?
Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
Then again, I should not be surprised. I have discussed and debated this topic with many who believe in a similar way as you do for almost 10 years now.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 20, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Born again believers fall under this category:

1Jn 3:9 (KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So which Belief Alone interpretation do you take on 1 John 3:9?
#1. Are you saying that a believer will not practice sin as a way of life?
#2. Are you saying that when a believer sins, that God does not see His sin because of the blood of Jesus?

You do realize what 1 John 3:10 says, right?

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

How does this work with your kind of belief?
For what if a believer one day does not love his brother?
Was he never saved to begin with?
Is not the committing of certain sins simply a lack of not loving your neighbor according to Romans 13:8-10?

You said:
And this category:

1Co 6:12 (KJV) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

I like how the Good News Translation clarifies what the KJB is saying here. It says,

“Someone will say, "I am allowed to do anything." Yes; but not everything is good for you. I could say that I am allowed to do anything, but I am not going to let anything make me its slave.” (1 Corinthians 6:12) (GNT).

This is the best interpretative view on this verse because Paul says a few verses up.

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (KJB).

So Paul is not saying that all things are lawful for him in the sense that he can sin and still be saved because he has a belief alone in Jesus. Paul just said that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul just said for us to not be deceived on the matter that fornicators, thieves, covetous, drunkards, etc. shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Meaning, they will not be saved, but they will be condemned.

Bob_1000 · Nov 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
That makes absolutely no sense. First, there is no verse or passage that says what you just said. It’s entirely made up. Yes, Jesus died for our sins, but…

It comes from here:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

It comes from here:

Rom_7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It comes from here:

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

It comes from here:

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

This is like Christianity 101... the law only applies to the firstborn, i.e. the flesh while the law of liberty only applies to the second born. Once our souls husband is crucified with Christ, he's dead and our soul is no longer bound to his law. These are concepts that you can't comprehend right now and this is why I don't debate works salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 21, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
It comes from here:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

You are taking Romans 6:11 out of context.
It’s not talking about how you can sin and still be saved.

“Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Romans 6:1-2).

See. Paul says… “God forbid” as an the answer of the question that asks, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” Meaning, grace will not abound if we continue in sin.

Take note also of what the context says.

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Romans 6:6-7).

Notice here that the old man of sin is crucified with Christ.

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

Romans 6:7 says he that is dead is freed from sin.
Meaning, he that is dead to his old man being crucified to doing his old sinful ways and he is freed from sin. They have crucified the old man. For they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

These are they who are Christ’s.

What is one way in how we crucify the affections and lusts?

By walking after the Spirit.

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16).

“But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:22-23).

Notice very carefully verse 22. The words in blue refers back to Romans 6:7 in that he that is dead is freed from sin (i.e. those who have crucified the affections and lusts or crucified the old man). Now, continuing on with the words in red in Romans 6:22: These are are the one who become servants to God whereby they have their fruit unto holiness (i.e. living holy) and the end…. everlasting life. It does not say they can live in sin and the end is everlasting life. Paul says in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, but the alternative is having eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. How can we know that we have an assurance that we know the Lord Jesus Christ and thus have eternal life by Him?

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:3-4).

So we can have an assurance that we know Jesus if we find that we are keeping His commandments. The person who does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. What truth is not in them? Jesus. Because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

So when Romans 6:11 says, “reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,” it is referring to the context of the previous verse that says, “For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.” (Romans 6:10). Meaning, the one who has crucified the affections and lusts when they received God’s grace so they live a holy life that is unto God.

So Romans 6:11 is not saying you can sin and still be saved. We reckon ourselves dead unto sin in that we have crucified the affections and lusts or crucified the old man. For Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts.

It’s the whole concept of when Jesus said, “…whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” (Matthew 16:25). You know? The whole pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow Jesus thing. This is what Paul means when He refers to how we are…. “dead” in Romans 6.

Anyways, I will address the rest of your other verses in another post.

The word “murder” means “kill” in the King James Bible (Bible Study)

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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