Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Guojing · Nov 18, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
It depends on what you mean by that. Give me an example of assemblies in the Bible that are not the body of Christ, so that I can know for sure of what you're talking about here.

The nation Israel during the OT.

The assembly in Acts 19:32

Spiritual Jew · Nov 18, 2021

Guojing said:
The nation Israel during the OT.

The assembly in Acts 19:32

Yeah, those assemblies are not the body of Christ.

Bob_1000 · Nov 18, 2021

Guojing said:
Only temporarily, as Paul explained in Romans 11:25-28

So I assume that you’re one of those who believe “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved“ has an expiration date for gentiles.

Douggg · Nov 18, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you recall me mentioning Simeon and Anna who understood that the Messiah was coming and what He was coming to do before he was even born (read Luke 2:25-38). So, you can try to act as if no one knew ahead of time, but that is not the case.

Of course they knew the messiah was coming. What was kept a mystery from understanding is the messiah's death and resurrection would be God's way to save man from the penalty of sin and have eternal life.

jgr · Nov 18, 2021

Guojing said:
Only temporarily, as Paul explained in Romans 11:25-28

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27; 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with faith and obedience. Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of his parents Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith he obeyed to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:

Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.

Faith and obedience.

Spiritual DNA.

God's sole and exclusive Covenant conditions.

And no others.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 18, 2021

Douggg said:
Of course they knew the messiah was coming. What was kept a mystery from understanding is the messiah's death and resurrection would be God's way to save man from the penalty of sin and have eternal life.

But, they did know that the Messiah would provide for man's salvation and redemption even if they didn't know exactly how.

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: 29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you may now dismiss your servant in peace. 30 For my eyes have seen your salvation, 31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations: 32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel.”

Luke 2:36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.

Bob_1000 · Nov 18, 2021

jgr said:
Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27; 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with faith and obedience. Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of his parents Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith he obeyed to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:

Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.

Faith and obedience.

Spiritual DNA.

God's sole and exclusive Covenant conditions.

And no others.

Amen! And speaking of Issac, Isaac was Abraham’s only begotten SPIRITUAL son at that time. He was the first child of the children of promise.

Bob_1000 · Nov 18, 2021

Douggg said:
Of course they knew the messiah was coming. What was kept a mystery from understanding is the messiah's death and resurrection would be God's way to save man from the penalty of sin and have eternal life.

1Pe 1:10 (KJV) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 (KJV) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Timtofly · Nov 18, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
It's not a one time event, it's a daily event of Gentiles being saved the same way Jews are which is by grace through faith in Christ.

No. It will be too late for anyone to be saved at that point.

Where did I say that? Do you have to misunderstand everything? It's an ongoing daily thing (people being saved) that started long ago.

The point was ruling on earth with Christ. It will not be finished until after the 1000 years are over. You deny there is even a future reign. You are the one putting the finish where it does not belong.

Timtofly · Nov 18, 2021

The Righterzpen said:
Not sure where you got the impression that I said it was impossible for humans to see creation? Scripture says no one can see God in His glory and live. "The heavens declare the glory of God" does not mean we see God's glory in creation. We see a reflection of God's glory in the creation. Big difference. BIG difference!

Do you think that when you look at a tree, you're seeing God? God and His creation are two separate things. Always have and always will be. That reality is what made Jesus so unique as a human being. How does God cleave Divinity onto a created entity. (I don't know, but that's what Jesus was. A Divine nature and a human nature inseparably cleaved to each other.) But hey, for an entity that's omnipotent. God can do what ever He wants.

Why would Jesus physically reign on a corrupt earth? What would be the point? To demonstrate that He has the power to do this? God doesn't need to prove to us that He's God. Jesus could have reigned over a material kingdom while he lived here on earth. He didn't do that though. Why not?

Seeing God in all His glory is possible. It is the punishment of sin that currently prohibits that.

Why do you have issue with Christ ruling physically on the earth?

Guojing · Nov 18, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
So I assume that you’re one of those who believe “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved“ has an expiration date for gentiles.

Paul explained, before that passage, in Romans 11:22, that there will come a time when gentiles will be cut off and the nation Israel be restored to God's favorite nation once again.

For me, I believe that will take place during the time of Jacob's trouble, aka Tribulation.

When that happens, gentiles who want to be saved, must once again bless the nation of Israel (Matthew 25:31-46)

Guojing · Nov 18, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Yeah, those assemblies are not the body of Christ.

Yet, the same Greek term, ecclesia, is used in those passages to describe them, as I already stated.

Guojing · Nov 18, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Amen! And speaking of Issac, Isaac was Abraham’s only begotten SPIRITUAL son at that time. He was the first child of the children of promise.

That is why I said you subscribe to covenant theology.

You can identify them when they believe that the present body of Christ is the spiritual Israel, aka fulfillment theology.

What are some misconceptions about covenant theology? | Reformed Theological Seminary

Bob_1000 · Nov 18, 2021

Guojing said:
Paul explained, before that passage, in Romans 11:22, that there will come a time when gentiles will be cut off and the nation Israel be restored to God's favorite nation once again.

For me, I believe that will take place during the time of Jacob's trouble, aka Tribulation.

When that happens, gentiles who want to be saved, must once again bless the nation of Israel (Matthew 25:31-46)

Rom 11:22 (KJV) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

“Thou” is one person, thou is not the gentiles as a whole. If THOU continue in his goodness: otherwise THOU also shalt be cut off, just like the unbelieving Jews were cut off from the olive tree but the BELIEVING Jews weren’t cut off from it.

Bob_1000 · Nov 18, 2021

Guojing said:
That is why I said you subscribe to covenant theology.

You can identify them when they believe that the present body of Christ is the spiritual Israel, aka fulfillment theology.

What are some misconceptions about covenant theology? | Reformed Theological Seminary

It’s not just the present body of Christ that’s spiritual Israel, it was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Samuel, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, and all of the rest of the Old Testament believers in Christ.

The Righterzpen · Nov 18, 2021

Timtofly said:
Seeing God in all His glory is possible. It is the punishment of sin that currently prohibits that.

If the punishment for sin prohibits one from seeing God in all of His glory; how is Jesus in a glorified state going to rule over a sinful earth, when the glory of God would cause its destruction?

Timtofly said:
Why do you have issue with Christ ruling physically on the earth?

Given premise #1, explain to me how this is going to happen? Also, you didn't answer my question. Why would Jesus physically ruling over a corrupt sinful earth be necessary?

Guojing · Nov 18, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Rom 11:22 (KJV) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

“Thou” is one person, thou is not the gentiles as a whole. If THOU continue in his goodness: otherwise THOU also shalt be cut off, just like the unbelieving Jews were cut off from the olive tree but the BELIEVING Jews weren’t cut off from it.

Romans 11:13 tells you who the "thou" is referring to.

Guojing · Nov 18, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
It’s not just the present body of Christ that’s spiritual Israel, it was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Samuel, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, and all of the rest of the Old Testament believers in Christ.

The point is, if you believe that the Body of Christ is spiritual Israel, that means you subscribe to covenant theology.

Douggg · Nov 18, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Luke 2:36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.

Redemption of Jerusalem from foreign rule. At the time they were occupied by the Romans.

btw, do you know what the Jews (Judaism) call the "final redemption" ?

The consider the final redemption is when all the children of Israel have been brought back to the land of Israel.

And do you know what the Jews (Judaism) think Salvation is and God their only Savior means? To them, they believe it means physical salvation from one's enemies.

Bob_1000 · Nov 18, 2021

Guojing said:
Romans 11:13 tells you who the "thou" is referring to.

I agree he’s talking to gentiles but “thou” is one single gentile not all of them.

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