Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Saint Steven · Nov 18, 2021

Major1 said:
The calling of the narrow way is be faithful to our Lord, His Gospel and our mission.

DIY salvation by works, then?

Andrewn · Nov 18, 2021

Major1 said:
The important thing is that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.

I was always taught that it was a parable. But I take the Lord's parables very seriously as reflections of real truths.

1) The main point, of course, is condemnation of the selfish use of wealth.

2) Another thing that is taught is that disembodied souls have both identity and memory.

3) Before Jesus' crucifixion, the righteous souls were comforted in Abraham's bosom.

4) Unrighteous souls are tormented in Hades.

5) The flames could not be literal since we are talking about disembodied souls. Luther speculated that they represent the conscience.

6) Nothing is said about the torment being endless. In fact, torment in Hades cannot be endless because we are told specifically in the book of Revelation that Hades would be no more.

7) Souls in both sections could communicate (via internet?).

8) Souls in both sections could not cross the gulf between them.

You probably could not take this parable or the parable of the sheep and goats seriously as they say nothing about Predestination.

Der Alte · Nov 18, 2021

Andrewn said:
I was always taught that it was a parable. But I take the Lord's parables very seriously as reflections of real truths.
1) The main point, of course, is condemnation of the selfish use of wealth.

The rich man violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.

The grammar of the Lazarus/rich man story indicates Lazarus desired the crumbs from the rich mans table but didn't even get those.

5) The flames could not be literal since we are talking about disembodied souls. Luther speculated that they represent the conscience.

Not necessarily.

6) Nothing is said about the torment being endless. In fact, torment in Hades cannot be endless because we are told specifically in the book of Revelation that Hades would be no more.

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus said the punishment was eternal. Anything written by someone else must be interpreted so it does not contradict the words of Jesus.
…..Revelation 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a "death" and "hell" which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. Feel free to call them anything you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

Light of the East · Nov 18, 2021

Hmm said:
More accusations of being unbiblical lol. Is this really the best Team Hell can do?

St. Steven is on Team Universal Salvation.

Hmm · Nov 18, 2021

Light of the East said:
St. Steven is on Team Universal Salvation.

I realise that. I was referring to a comment made to him by someone else.

Saint Steven · Nov 18, 2021

Hmm said:
I realise that. I was referring to a comment made to him by someone else.

I think @Light of the East was agreeing with you. (he's on our side - Team UR) You could say, "He wrote the book." - lol

Light of the East · Nov 18, 2021

QUOTE="Der Alte: Are you serious?
Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41

Actually, are you serious? Please try using a proper translation of the Greek if you are going to throw scriptures around: Mattthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;" (Young's LITERAL Translation of the Bible)

• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." Stop using corrupted Roman Catholic Latin translations!!

• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"

Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem. After the Romans leveled Jerusalem in AD 70, it was filled with corpses and burned night and day. This fulfilled the warning Jesus gave in Mark 9 and elsewhere about escaping the fires of Gehenna (NOT your made up "hell.") Any Jew in the first century listening to Jesus speak would have asked himself "How do I escape winding up in the garbage dump of Jerusalem? What is going to happen?" He would not have thought of the burning eternal torture pit of hell that Dante popularized.

• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

What is the furnace? κάμινος kaminos

a furnace
1. for smelting
2. for burning earthen ware
3. for baking bread

In other words, a furnace that CREATES! It cleanses (smelting) finishes (baking earthen ware) and creates life (bread to eat). There is no idea of destruction in any of these definitions. And what is the fire? Hebrews 12:29 "for also our God is a consuming fire." And what does God consume? Us? The wicked? No. 1 Corinthians teaches that He consumes all that is not pure, the wood, hay, and stubble of our lives, to purify us as the refiner purifies gold, removing the dross.

Zec 13:9 I will bring that group through the fire
and make them pure.
I will refine them like silver
and purify them like gold.
They will call on my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘These are my people,'
and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.'”

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

Really reaching now, aren't you. The false translation "hell" isn't even mentioned in this verse. Jesus is warning those listening that the people who will attack His disciples, His "little ones" (The Greek word is mikros, which means "little", not paidion, which means a small child), that they would be better off to drown themselves than to go through the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

Doesn't prove a thing about hell. You are reading into the text that which you wish to see.

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.

Utter nonsense, sir. You are like the guy who owns a hammer and suddenly everything looks like a nail to him. The Jews of the first century had no idea of an eternal hell. Instead of spouting off here, go find some Jewish sources and read up on what they believed.

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.

…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”

….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.

When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.

…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

"There are, however, several biblical references to a place called Sheol (cf. Numbers 30, 33). It is described as a region “dark and deep,” “the Pit,” and “the Land of Forgetfulness,” where human beings descend after death. The suggestion is that in the netherworld of Sheol, the deceased, although cut off from God and humankind, live on in some shadowy state of existence.

While this vision of Sheol is rather bleak (setting precedents for later Jewish and Christian ideas of an underground hell) there is generally no concept of judgment or reward and punishment attached to it. In fact, the more pessimistic books of the Bible, such as Ecclesiastes and Job, insist that all of the dead go down to Sheol, whether good or evil, rich or poor, slave or free man (Job 3:11-19).[1]

The Hebrew Bible itself assumes that the dead are simply dead – that their body lies in the grave, and there is no consciousness, ever again. It is true that some poetic authors, for example in the Psalms, use the mysterious term “Sheol” to describe a person’s new location. But in most instances Sheol is simply a synonym for “tomb” or “grave.” It’s not a place where someone actually goes."[2] [3]

[1] Rose, “Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition.” Para. 3–4.

[2] Ehrman, “What Jesus Really Said About Heaven and Hell.” Para. 7.

[3] Another good reference to Jewish beliefs on the afterlife can be found at the Jewish Encyclopedia online at GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Light of the East · Nov 18, 2021

Luke 16:

"While Augustine took this parable as a real story, as do many who read it, biblically speaking I find a much stronger case to take the symbols in the parable and apply them to national Israel.

The Rich Man symbolizes Israel. How was national Israel rich? Through her special relationship with God as the chosen people. Israel had the riches of God’s presence and leading, the Temple, and the relationship they had. The priests were clothed in purple and fine linen. I believe upon hearing these words, the priestly class listening to Christ would have begun to identify with it and take closer notice.

If national Israel was indeed the rich man who fared sumptuously every day, who was the beggar? It was the Gentile nations who had none of the riches of a relationship with God. No temple, no law of God, no prophets, and no true worship. In terms of the true riches, the riches of being God’s special and chosen people, they were bankrupt. The crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table could be the incidental hearing of the Jewish scriptures or seeing the worship in the Temple from the Outer Court of the Gentiles. These were crumbs, but not the full meal which the Jews enjoyed.

In parable both men die. When we think of death, it is normal to think of the cessation of life in the human body. But in scripture, death connotes something besides that. In Genesis 3 we see Adam and Eve die, but they are still alive. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father says “For this my son was dead, and is alive again . . . ” In neither case do we see the cessation of physical life. What we see is separation, Adam and Eve from Paradise, the son from his father’s presence. In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, both men are separated from the condition in which they exist and find themselves in a new condition. Thus they “die” to their old life.

The rich man died to his existence and became poor. He was without all the luxuries and benefits which he had previously enjoyed, and this was a torment to him. This is a picture of Judaism, which no longer enjoys the special covenant relationship with God it once had. National Israel is no longer God’s special people. In the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, national Israel is cast out of the vineyard (the Kingdom of God) and replaced. These two parables describe the same event. National Israel’s covenant with God ended in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. They are replaced by the church, the nation of the Gentiles. Those who were once beggars for crumbs from God’s table now feast upon the riches of Liturgy, Sacraments, and the Word of God.

It is interesting to see how the beggar was brought to Abraham’s bosom. He was carried by angels. The word angel means “messenger.” Who were the messengers who brought the Gentile nations out of their spiritual poverty and into God’s rich and abundant mercy? The Apostles. They brought the message of the Gospel, the Good News of the Resurrection and God’s favor, to the ends of the known world, bringing with them the invitation to enter the covenant which began with Abraham. St. Paul says “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” Abraham’s bosom is where the covenant father, Abraham, holds his children close to him in a special relationship.

On the other hand, in terms of their covenant with God being destroyed, national Israel was buried in AD 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies of Titus and the Temple razed to the ground. This burial was confirmed by later attempts to rebuild the Temple being met with disaster and death.

It is beyond my understanding how people can take this parable and make a literal story out of it when they do no such thing with other parables, but instead read them as parables and then try to find the meaning to them. What is being done here by Infernalists is reading the parable through a lens of presupposition. When the words death and torment appear in the parable, the Infernalist mind immediately flips over to thinking that this must be about the eternal hell in which they believe."

Hmm · Nov 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I think @Light of the East was agreeing with you. (he's on our side - Team UR) You could say, "He wrote the book." - lol

Ah okay, I thought there may have been a misunderstanding but I see it was on my part, which has been known to happen before! Apologies @Light of the East. Looking forward to reading your book - from your posts, I think it will be good.

Der Alte · Nov 18, 2021

Light of the East said:
* * * *

Light of the East said:
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
Actually, are you serious? Please try using a proper translation of the Greek if you are going to throw scriptures around: Mattthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;" (Young's LITERAL Translation of the Bible)

Too much half baked biased rubbish in this post for me to even try to address.
Robert Young was self taught in Greek and other languages. His "translations" are about as valid as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Try using the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible, translated by native Greek speaking scholars, "aionios" means "eternal"

Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem. After the Romans leveled Jerusalem in AD 70, it was filled with corpses and burned night and day. This fulfilled the warning Jesus gave in Mark 9 and elsewhere about escaping the fires of Gehenna (NOT your made up "hell.") Any Jew in the first century listening to Jesus speak would have asked himself "How do I escape winding up in the garbage dump of Jerusalem? What is going to happen?" He would not have thought of the burning eternal torture pit of hell that Dante popularized.

Wrong! There is garbage here but it wasn't in the valley of Hinnom. Here is genuine scholarly sources which document there was NEVER a burning dump in the valley of Hinnom.

"The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm

…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

= = = = =

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.

...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage

Der Alte · Nov 18, 2021

Light of the East said:
* * *
What a mass of confusion you just posted. Not a single one of those verses has anything to do with an eternal hell of fire. In Daniel 12: 2 the word mistranslated as "eternal" is "olam" in the Masoretic Text. Does not mean "eternal" at all.
The simple, basic truth is that Classical Hebrew, the Hebrew of the Old Testament Scriptures, has no term that carries the concept of “eternity.” There are phrases that carry this concept, such as “without end,” but there is not a single word that carries the concept of eternity as there is in English. * * *

More biased false information.
Hebrew has been the language of the Jews since long before the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Who better than the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the Jewish Publication Society [JPS] English translation know the correct translation of "olam" and all the other Hebrew words in the T'anakh[OT]?

JPS Exodus 3:15
15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, [לעלם/l'olam] and this is My memorial unto all generations.

Here learn some truth.

Breslov References & Citations - Genesis 1:1-31
Book of Shemot (Exodus)

Also check out the Eastern Greek Orthodox Church translation EOB for truth about the meaning "aionios."

http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf

Der Alte · Nov 18, 2021

Light of the East said:
* * *
It is beyond my understanding how people can take this parable and make a literal story out of it when they do no such thing with other parables, but instead read them as parables and then try to find the meaning to them. What is being done here by Infernalists is reading the parable through a lens of presupposition. When the words death and torment appear in the parable, the Infernalist mind immediately flips over to thinking that this must be about the eternal hell in which they believe." * * *

Why not consider it a parable? Every ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus/rich man considered it factual. Parable is from the Greek word "parabole' " which means "throw/place beside." A parable has a specific structure. Something unknown/not understood is explained/clarified by comparison with something known/understood.
In the 19th century a Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger identified more than 200 figures of speech used in the Bible.
Lazarus/rich man might be some other figure of speech but it does not have a comparison i.e. "'this' is like unto 'that.'" So it is NOT a parable.
If some wannabe Bible scholar wants to do some real research they might learn some truth. But I ain't seen none around here.

Ceallaigh · Nov 18, 2021

Hmm said:
It tells you that UR helps you to see people as God does and therefore it is true and ECT and Annihilationism is false. Once you realise that we are all equally loved by God and that God is really going to bring everyone to repentance so that one day, every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, you can kind of relax and see people for what they are... people.

You stop dividing people into the “Lost” or “Saved” or into “Christian” or “Non-Christian”. You begin to realise that everyone you meet, regardless of their beliefs or spiritual condition, is someone who God loves as His child. You also start to recognise that everyone you meet is your brother or sister because we all have the same Heavenly Father.

This really changes the way you view the world and other people.

Jesus said to love our neighbors and even our enemies and not to judge anyone.

Ceallaigh · Nov 18, 2021

Light of the East said:
Luke 16:

"While Augustine took this parable as a real story, as do many who read it, biblically speaking I find a much stronger case to take the symbols in the parable and apply them to national Israel.

The Rich Man symbolizes Israel. How was national Israel rich? Through her special relationship with God as the chosen people. Israel had the riches of God’s presence and leading, the Temple, and the relationship they had. The priests were clothed in purple and fine linen. I believe upon hearing these words, the priestly class listening to Christ would have begun to identify with it and take closer notice.

If national Israel was indeed the rich man who fared sumptuously every day, who was the beggar? It was the Gentile nations who had none of the riches of a relationship with God. No temple, no law of God, no prophets, and no true worship. In terms of the true riches, the riches of being God’s special and chosen people, they were bankrupt. The crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table could be the incidental hearing of the Jewish scriptures or seeing the worship in the Temple from the Outer Court of the Gentiles. These were crumbs, but not the full meal which the Jews enjoyed.

In parable both men die. When we think of death, it is normal to think of the cessation of life in the human body. But in scripture, death connotes something besides that. In Genesis 3 we see Adam and Eve die, but they are still alive. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father says “For this my son was dead, and is alive again . . . ” In neither case do we see the cessation of physical life. What we see is separation, Adam and Eve from Paradise, the son from his father’s presence. In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, both men are separated from the condition in which they exist and find themselves in a new condition. Thus they “die” to their old life.

The rich man died to his existence and became poor. He was without all the luxuries and benefits which he had previously enjoyed, and this was a torment to him. This is a picture of Judaism, which no longer enjoys the special covenant relationship with God it once had. National Israel is no longer God’s special people. In the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, national Israel is cast out of the vineyard (the Kingdom of God) and replaced. These two parables describe the same event. National Israel’s covenant with God ended in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. They are replaced by the church, the nation of the Gentiles. Those who were once beggars for crumbs from God’s table now feast upon the riches of Liturgy, Sacraments, and the Word of God.

It is interesting to see how the beggar was brought to Abraham’s bosom. He was carried by angels. The word angel means “messenger.” Who were the messengers who brought the Gentile nations out of their spiritual poverty and into God’s rich and abundant mercy? The Apostles. They brought the message of the Gospel, the Good News of the Resurrection and God’s favor, to the ends of the known world, bringing with them the invitation to enter the covenant which began with Abraham. St. Paul says “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” Abraham’s bosom is where the covenant father, Abraham, holds his children close to him in a special relationship.

On the other hand, in terms of their covenant with God being destroyed, national Israel was buried in AD 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies of Titus and the Temple razed to the ground. This burial was confirmed by later attempts to rebuild the Temple being met with disaster and death.

It is beyond my understanding how people can take this parable and make a literal story out of it when they do no such thing with other parables, but instead read them as parables and then try to find the meaning to them. What is being done here by Infernalists is reading the parable through a lens of presupposition. When the words death and torment appear in the parable, the Infernalist mind immediately flips over to thinking that this must be about the eternal hell in which they believe."

Most people really miss out on how much can be found in it and learned from it.

Ceallaigh · Nov 18, 2021

Der Alte said:
Too much half baked biased rubbish in this post for me to even try to address.
Robert Young was self taught in Greek and other languages. His "translations" are about as valid as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Try using the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible, translated by native Greek speaking scholars, "aionios" means "eternal"

Wrong! There is garbage here but it wasn't in the valley of Hinnom. Here is genuine scholarly sources which document there was NEVER a burning dump in the valley of Hinnom.
"The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm
…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/
= = = = =
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.

...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage

The key to understanding the use of Gehenna is probably found in the rituals of Molech which took place the valley of Hinnom.

This short video is from the City of David Institute for Jerusalem Studies and is in Hebrew with English subtitles, so it should be right up your alley.

Ceallaigh · Nov 19, 2021

Der Alte said:
Why not consider it a parable? Every ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus/rich man considered it factual. Parable is from the Greek word "parabole' " which means "throw/place beside." A parable has a specific structure. Something unknown/not understood is explained/clarified by comparison with something known/understood.
In the 19th century a Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger identified more than 200 figures of speech used in the Bible. Lazarus/rich man might be some other figure of speech but it does not have a comparison i.e. "'this' is like unto 'that.'" So it is NOT a parable.
If some wannabe Bible scholar wants to do some real research they might learn some truth. But I ain't seen none around here.

Of the two parables found in Luke 16:

The first one starts out saying "There was a certain rich man," Luke 16:1

The second one starts out saying "There was a certain rich man," Luke 16:19

It seems to me the fact that they both start out with the same premise, makes it likely that they're connected.

Ceallaigh · Nov 19, 2021

Andrewn said:
I was always taught that it was a parable. But I take the Lord's parables very seriously as reflections of real truths.

5) The flames could not be literal since we are talking about disembodied souls. Luther speculated that they represent the conscience.

It's hard to think of the rich man as a disembodied soul in the story, since he asked for a drop of water to cool his tongue. And if so and the fames were literal, the rich man wouldn't be conversing with Abraham, he would be screaming his head off.

Major1 · Nov 19, 2021

Andrewn said:
I was always taught that it was a parable. But I take the Lord's parables very seriously as reflections of real truths.

1) The main point, of course, is condemnation of the selfish use of wealth.

2) Another thing that is taught is that disembodied souls have both identity and memory.

3) Before Jesus' crucifixion, the righteous souls were comforted in Abraham's bosom.

4) Unrighteous souls are tormented in Hades.

5) The flames could not be literal since we are talking about disembodied souls. Luther speculated that they represent the conscience.

6) Nothing is said about the torment being endless. In fact, torment in Hades cannot be endless because we are told specifically in the book of Revelation that Hades would be no more.

7) Souls in both sections could communicate (via internet?).

8) Souls in both sections could not cross the gulf between them.

You probably could not take this parable or the parable of the sheep and goats seriously as they say nothing about Predestination.

Now, it is clear that this passage of Scripture is NOT a parable because LITERAL names are used which employs the use of the LITERAL names of Abraham, Lazarus, and Moses. There is NO reason for us to believe that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, none at all. Jesus NEVER said it was a parable!

Also, the Bible says in Verse 23 that in Hell the rich man “LIFT UP HIS EYES.” If we say that Hell is not a literal place of Hell and “hell” just means “grave” .. then If that were true, then the Bible would be saying that in the “grave” the rich man lift up his eyes. Does that make any sense? No, it wouldn't. The Bible says in Verse 23 that he was “IN TORMENTS.” How can a man lying lifeless in a grave be “tormented”? Clearly this is a true story!

#5.
I disagree. We should be careful never to allegorize or spiritualize the Bible (“it says this, but it really means that”). Such examples would be, “The word ‘Israel’ is actually ‘the Body of Christ,’” “‘Jerusalem’ really means your hometown,” and so on. This is nothing but employing (limited) human reasoning to make sense of (profound) Divine thoughts. It will never work and it will never get us to Bible truth; we must let the Holy Spirit teach us, and not human philosophers (1 Corinthians 2:1-16)!
If Jesus...GOD said FLAMES then it is FLAMES that torment.

#6.
I again disagree.
Revelation 14:11, reminding that the scripture says,....
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever."

Matthew 25:41 ......
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Rev. 20:10 .......
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Major1 · Nov 19, 2021

Saint Steven said:
DIY salvation by works, then?

Now Steve.....is that what I said???? Or is that what YOU want me to have said.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is your answer........
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

If that does not answer your question then there is no reason to ask me anything else.

Major1 · Nov 19, 2021

MMXX said:
Yes I know, that was my point in reply to what you said about how we must take what Jesus says as literal or else "we need to just come out and say that we do not believe the Bible."

Did you not understand the illustration I posted of the cross bridging the gulf? Should I say something like, "I am amazed that someone smart enough to use a complex computer, doesn't understand pictures"?

I apologize. I just thought that my answer to your question was easy to understand about the seperation you mentioned of not being in Scripture.

Luke 16"26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

THAT Picture says to me that there is a "Seperation".

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

You can call me Steve

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

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