Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Major1 said:

Steve....I have been at this many, many years.
What I have learned is that Universalism was certainly present in the early church, and I make no argument against your post.

What I do say however is that it is simply impossible to say if it was the majority view. I realize that by saying that and believing that it allows Universalists today to bleieve that they are on the side or correct doctrine.

But it is simply too easy to deceive people by listing only universalists in the " Early Christian Church". There are lots of early Christians, so it is easy to cherry pick opinion that you like. Not that that matters to anyone at all.

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To be clear, I have always affirmed that all three doctrines of the final judgment are biblical. And that they contradict each other.

Hmm said:

(@Saint Steven is the funny bone)

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I think it's my spiritual gift. - lol
(but as usual, I could be wrong)

Saint Steven said:

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Saint Steven said:

To be clear, I have always affirmed that all three doctrines of the final judgment are biblical. And that they contradict each other.

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Are UR and Annihilation-ism ever supported by any direct words from the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself? I don't mean something an OT prophets says unless directly quoting the Father or what a NT disciple says unless directly quoting Jesus?
But I won't hold my breath because I have read the entire Bible more than once.

QUOTE="Major1

Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell.
Daniel 12:2,
Daniel 12:3;
Matthew 25:46;
John 5:28;
Revelation 20:14,
Rev. 20:15.

What a mass of confusion you just posted. Not a single one of those verses has anything to do with an eternal hell of fire. In Daniel 12: 2 the word mistranslated as "eternal" is "olam" in the Masoretic Text. Does not mean "eternal" at all.

The simple, basic truth is that Classical Hebrew, the Hebrew of the Old Testament Scriptures, has no term that carries the concept of “eternity.” There are phrases that carry this concept, such as “without end,” but there is not a single word that carries the concept of eternity as there is in English.

To focus on the meaning of the term for ever, here are some things to be kept in mind.

First, the Hebrew word is olam. The word itself simply means “long duration,” “antiquity,” “futurity,” “until the end of a period of time.” That period of time is determined by the context. Sometimes it is the length of a man's life, sometimes it is an age, and sometimes it is a dispensation.

The second thing to keep in mind is that there are two Hebrew forms of olam. The first form is le-olam, which means “unto an age.” And the second form is ad-olam, which means “until an age.” However, neither of these forms carry the English meaning of “forever.” Although it has been translated that way in English, the Hebrew does not carry the concept of eternity as the English word “forever” does.

The third thing to keep in mind is that the word olam, le-olam, or ad-olam, sometimes means only up “to the end of a man’s life.” For example, it is used of someone’s lifetime (Ex. 14:13), of a slave's life (Ex. 21:6; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17), of Samuel's life (I Sam. 1:22; 2:35), of the lifetimes of David and Jonathan (I Sam. 20:23), and of David's lifetime (I Sam. 27:12; 28:2; I Chr. 28:4). While the English reads forever, obviously from the context it does not mean “forever” in the sense of eternity, but only up to the end of the person’s life.

The fourth thing to keep in mind about the meaning of olam is that it sometimes means only “an age” or “dispensation.” For example, Deuteronomy 23:3 uses the term for ever but limits the term to only ten generations. Here it obviously carries the concept of an age. In 2 Chronicles 7:16, it is used only for the period of the First Temple. So, again, the word for ever in Hebrew does not mean “eternal” as it does in English; it means up to the end of a period of time, either a man's life, or an age, or a dispensation’[1]

[1] Para. 2. Fruchtenbaum, “How Long is Forever?” How long is forever? (jewishroots.net)

QUOTE="Major1 Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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  Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”.
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    Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

More confusion. The furnace of fire is the fire of God's redeeming love. If you go to the Greek, you will find that it is a smelting furnace. What is a smelting furnace? It is a furnace which is used to purify, not to destroy. This is the problem with A.) not reading the Greek nor understanding it, and B.) reading into the text 1500 years of Western corruptions of the text. Let's look at Matthew 13:50

Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous, Matthew 13:50 and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'

First problem - bad translation. In the KJV and other Western translations, verse 49 reads "end of the world," which is a horrendously bad translation of the word "aion," which always means "age." So we see that Jesus is warning about the end of the age, not of the end of the world.

When did this happen? According to Matthew 24, it happened at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The warning is about the end of the Jewish Age (the Old Covenant) and the fate of those who would enter into the coming Age (the New Covenant) as unrepentant sinners. They would be cast into the Lake of Fire, that fire being the love of God, and tormented until the full measure of their punishment was met (Matthew 18:35). The furnace of fire is the purifying fire of God's love, experienced as torment by the wicked and as joy by the righteous. It lasts only as long as required to meet the justice of God and produce repentance. For some, this will take a loooooooooooooong time. For others - relatively short.

Brimstone was used in healing in the ancient times. Part of the healing fire of God.

Major1 said:

And the specific example would be...............?

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Once saved always saved would be the primary example. Also Predestination. And T.U.L.I.P. in part or in whole. I'm sure you know what examples there are as well as I do. And you have probably argued most if not all of them.

An interesting thing is a couple of main arguments against universalism are about the same as a couple of main arguments against Calvinism.

One is predestination. Lots of Christians argue that predestination goes against free will. Likewise it's argued that all will be redeemed goes against free will.

Also an argument against both is, if certain people were predestined to go to heaven from the foundation of creation, then what was the point in Jesus dying on the cross? Likewise, if all will eventually be saved what was the point of Jesus dying on the cross? (I already know the answers to that).

And then the argument against once saved always saved, is it teaches Christians that they can be backslidden and "live like the devil" and still make it into heaven, although as through flames not having any heavenly rewards. Likewise the argument against universal redemption is that it teaches people can "live like the devil" and still make it into heaven.

Major1 said:

However.....Parables DO NOT consist of Proper names, therefore, Luke 16 is a REAL story and not a "figurative" story.

I agree that the word fire is at times used in a "Picture" method.
CONTEXT defines the definition.

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I've heard that one too. Although it's sometimes phrased as "Jesus never used a proper name in a parable". Although I don't see as how a proper name being used automatically completely rules out any chance of it being a parable.

Now there's things that can be considered, beyond that standard blanket rule. One is both Luke 16:1 and Luke 16:19 start out the same way; "There was a certain rich man". Did you ever notice that before?

There's a lot more stuff in examining all of Luke 16:19-31. But let's think about the main thing that sticks out, which is the proper name of Lazerus.

The question is, was that the actual name of an actual person? Or was it symbolic? Did you know that like Jesus is the Greek version of Joshua or more properly Yeshua, Lazerus is the Greek version of Eleazar? So in this story there's Eleazar and Abraham. Now what stands out in that is, before the birth of Issac, a man named Eleazar was Abraham's heir. He was going inherit everything Abraham had. Furthermore it's possible that Eleazar of Damascus was a gentle proselyte.

And if that's the case. Then the rich man dressed in purple and fine linen could be symbolic of the Pharisees (remember that what Jesus said in Luke:16:19-31 was directed at the Pharisees), and Eleazar (Lazerus) was symbolic of the gentiles. For example there's the part about how Eleazar (Lazarus) ate crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, which is reminiscent of Matthew 15:27 where the gentile woman says, "Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table".

That and several other things could be a clear indication of Luke 16:19-31 being a parable of what was going to happen as far as gentiles receiving what only Abraham's heirs through Issac had.

Major1 said:

for the 1st 1500 years of the 20th century, the church was taught to be the one involved in our salvation.

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How long was the 20th century?

Major1 said:

I do not agree and I did NOT say that Steve did not believe the Bible.

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I get the impression from your post that multiple personalities are using the account: 6 maybe?

Major1 said:

If anyone wants to believe a false theology......they will find it in the Bible by looking for it.

It is called ....."Cafeteria Christianity".

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It's all good. But don't drink the Kool-Aid. What? Too late? Oh my.

Hmm said:

More accusations of being unbiblical lol. Is this really the best Team Hell can do?

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Mud-slinging is the last resort when you are losing the debate. (discredit your opponent)

Major1 said:

It is what Paul calls the “belt of truth” and “sword of the Spirit” (Eph. 6:14, 17)—the Bible. These are parts of the Christian’s armor.

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Interesting to note that the "word of God" in Ephesians 6:17 is the rhema, not the logos. (rhema = prophetic spoken word, not the Bible)

STRONGS NT 4487: ῤῆμα

ῤῆμα, ῤήματος, τό (from Ρ᾽ΑΩ, perfect passive ἐίρημαι), from Theognis, Herodotus, Pindar down; the Sept. chiefly for דָּבָר; also for אֹמֶר, מִלָּה, פֶּה, אִמְרָה, etc.;

1. properly, that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word (cf. ἔπος, also λόγος, I. 1); i. e.

Saint Steven said:

Interesting to note that the "word of God" in Ephesians 6:17 is the rhema, not the logos. (rhema = prophetic spoken word, not the Bible)

STRONGS NT 4487: ῤῆμα

ῤῆμα, ῤήματος, τό (from Ρ᾽ΑΩ, perfect passive ἐίρημαι), from Theognis, Herodotus, Pindar down; the Sept. chiefly for דָּבָר; also for אֹמֶר, מִלָּה, פֶּה, אִמְרָה, etc.;

1. properly, that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word (cf. ἔπος, also λόγος, I. 1); i. e.

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Just to be clear, I am not claiming that the Bible, or biblical quotations, are not a weapon to be used in spiritual warfare. Jesus used such to battle his wilderness fasting temptations. And notably, Satan was quoting scripture against him.

However in Ephesians chapter six we see a reference to the use of the spiritual gift of prophecy, as a word of knowledge, or a word of wisdom (1 Corinthians 12:8), being used as a weapon against the enemy.

And frankly, the context makes this clear. Read what the Apostle write directly after verse 17. What are the "words" given to him? (rhema)

Ephesians 6:17-20 NIV
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

Saint Steven said:

Just to be clear, I am not claiming that the Bible, or biblical quotations, are not a weapon to be used in spiritual warfare. Jesus used such to battle his wilderness fasting temptations. And notably, Satan was quoting scripture against him.

However in Ephesians chapter six we see a reference to the use of the spiritual gift of prophecy, as a word of knowledge, or a word of wisdom (1 Corinthians 12:8), being used as a weapon against the enemy.

And frankly, the context makes this clear. Read what the Apostle write directly after verse 17. What are the "words" given to him? (rhema)

Ephesians 6:17-20 NIV
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

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Out of curiosity I checked to see if rhema was used again in Ephesians 6:19. Nope, it was logos. But the direct English is "divine utterance". Wow.

3056 [e]
logos
λόγος
divine utterance
N-NMS

Saint Steven said:

Out of curiosity I checked to see if rhema was used again in Ephesians 6:19. Nope, it was logos. But the direct English is "divine utterance". Wow.

3056 [e]
logos
λόγος
divine utterance
N-NMS

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Therefore, the Apostle was asking for prayer that he would have divine utterance when he spoke about the mystery of the gospel.

Saint Steven said:

Interesting to note that the "word of God" in Ephesians 6:17 is the rhema, not the logos. (rhema = prophetic spoken word, not the Bible)

STRONGS NT 4487: ῤῆμα

ῤῆμα, ῤήματος, τό (from Ρ᾽ΑΩ, perfect passive ἐίρημαι), from Theognis, Herodotus, Pindar down; the Sept. chiefly for דָּבָר; also for אֹמֶר, מִלָּה, פֶּה, אִמְרָה, etc.;

1. properly, that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word (cf. ἔπος, also λόγος, I. 1); i. e.

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Nonsuited

Saint Steven said:

It's all good. But don't drink the Kool-Aid. What? Too late? Oh my.

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Heaven is a choice that must be made by each individual while alive.

The Great Commission does not mean that a majority will respond with real faith. But some will. The calling of the narrow way is be faithful to our Lord, His Gospel and our mission. Blessings beyond our imagination are found on the narrow way, along with struggles, challenges, and growth.

The narrow gate may be equated to conversion, and the narrow way could be understood as the life of sanctification.

Andrewn said:

How long was the 20th century?


I get the impression of your post that multiple personalities are using the account: 6 maybe?

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You can find the answer by doing a google search on your computer.

Couldn't fool you could I????

Actually there are 12 of us. LOL!