I used to feel the same urgent Apocalyptic CERTAINTY some here feel

eclipsenow said:

It's basic hermeneutics. What category of writing are we looking at? Is it history, parable, biography, letter, love poetry, Psalm, other song, proverb, or symbolic sermon? Were there comparable styles of writing and contemporary documents to compare it to? How did the original audience read it?
Are there similar genres of writing in other parts of the bible - and how did they read it?
Once we break down these questions, we can study what it meant to the original audience and then get at the core principles to apply to today.

The fact that you seem to fudge bible categories isn't my fault - but is now recorded here for all future browsers of these forums.

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The common theme is God.

We are not trying to figure out what every human thinks. But what God thinks.

Timtofly said:

The common theme is God.

We are not trying to figure out what every human thinks. But what God thinks.

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We have received the Bible, translated into our own languages by experts.
[My brother is a Wycliffe translator]
It is not necessary for the average lay person to go into the depths of hermeneutics and what ancient people thought. That is for those wanting to be experts and get qualifications. Actually an impossible goal. Matthew 11:25

That approach to the Bible, is wrong and only followed by those who want the Bible to say what they have come to believe.

Timtofly said:

It does not say the earth is burned up but the works are burned up leaving the earth a barren wasteland. Even you claim the earth is still here.

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I have never said that it's talking about the complete annihilation of the earth even to the core. I believe the entire earth surface will be burned up. Who could survive that? No one. That's the point. Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 that it is according to the promise of Christ's second coming that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in and he said THAT is what we are looking forward to, not an earthly millennial kingdom.

eclipsenow said:

Agreed.

Also, I'm wondering what you make of the language of being 'caught up into the air'?

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I don't think there's anything figurative about it, if that's what you're wondering. I think it's talking about being literally caught up from the earth up into the air or the earth's atmosphere somewhere.

Theologians I know see that as describing how Christians will be kept in a place of safety - much like the centrepiece of the Noah story where he is floating on the waters while the judgement takes place below. Only in our case, it will be a complete rejuvenation of this entire universe - entropy and all. Somehow. I think it's giving us some sort of metaphor to describe our being with Jesus in a place of safety. After all, we're talking about the renovation of our entire universe - the wedding of heaven and earth - and who can understand what that will actually mean literally?

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It certainly refers to a place of safety somewhere away from all the fiery chaos that will be going on that day. Whether we interpret that place literally or figuratively doesn't really make much of a difference. The main thing to understand is that we will be spending eternity in the new heavens and new earth at that point. That is the promise that is in accordance with the second coming of Christ, according to Peter in 2 Peter 3:13. Not an earthly millennial kingdom as Premils believe. It's clear that Peter was an Amil.

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't think there's anything figurative about it, if that's what you're wondering. I think it's talking about being literally caught up from the earth up into the air or the earth's atmosphere somewhere.

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We know the Lord can transport humans between earthly locations. Philip, in Acts of the Apostles 8:39 and Ezekiel 3:12-15 demonstrate this.

Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17, say it will happen to those who have kept faithful and trusted in the Lord, gathered to Him, when Jesus Returns to Jerusalem.

Spiritual Jew said:

It's clear that Peter was an Amil.

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Explain then, why 1 Peter 5:8-9 says the devil is loose and can deceive anyone.

Spiritual Jew said:

I have never said that it's talking about the complete annihilation of the earth even to the core. I believe the entire earth surface will be burned up. Who could survive that? No one. That's the point. Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 that it is according to the promise of Christ's second coming that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in and he said THAT is what we are looking forward to, not an earthly millennial kingdom.

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People survive surface fires all the time. What would not be survived is not having an earth at all.

Compared to Revelation 20:11

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Found no place for them means they no longer existed. In 2 Peter 3, even you conclude the earth still exists.

When the 6th Seal is opened all see the face of the one sitting on the throne. What throne? The same GWT, yet they still exist on the earth. They exist all the way until Armageddon happens, years later. The fire starts at the 6th Seal, the Second Coming. The fire of the final harvest lasts up until the 7th Trumpet. There is a chronological process of the systematic removal of Adam's flesh and blood.

The church is harvested first. Then the sheep and goats. Then the nations. If any are left to harvest it will be those beheaded for avoiding the mark. Then comes the harvest of those with the mark at Armageddon.

Then in Revelation 20:4 there is a resurrection to start the Millennium Kingdom on a fresh heavens and earth, per Isaiah 65.

John did not include the Olivet Discourse in his Gospel. However the book of Revelation would be his witness to the actual events themselves. Yet many attempt to explain Revelation through the other two Gospel accounts of the OD. John watched it unfold. It should be that the other OD accounts should conform to Revelation, not the other way around.

keras said:

We know the Lord can transport humans between earthly locations. Philip, in Acts of the Apostles 8:39 and Ezekiel 3:12-15 demonstrate this.

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If we were just being transported to another location then it would say we're meeting Him somewhere on earth. But, it says we're meeting Him in the air. Stop trying to get around that.

Explain then, why 1 Peter 5:8-9 says the devil is loose and can deceive anyone.

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The binding of Satan isn't about him being prevented from deceiving at all, it's about his ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness to the same extent as he was able to do in Old Testament times. In that time the Gentiles were "without hope and without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-13), but that all changed after Jesus came and after the gospel started going out into the world and shining light where there used to only be spiritual darkness.

Passages like the following speak of this change that occurred as it relates to what Satan was able to do before and after Christ came:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Premils completely ignore passages like the ones above and have no clue about their significance.

Look at the passage you referenced:

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

You focus on the fact that he goes around like a roaring lion looking for someone he can devour, but you don't look at verse 9. In Old Testament times, people had no ability to resist him because they didn't have the help of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. But, that all changed after Christ died and rose again and after the Spirit started indwelling Christians on the day of Pentecost.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

In Old Testament times people weren't able to resist the devil and make him flee from them. This is something that we can do now because we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, he has to flee if we resist him. He is no match for the Holy Spirit.

Timtofly said:

People survive surface fires all the time. What would not be survived is not having an earth at all.

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LOL. Not the kind described in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Compared to Revelation 20:11

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Found no place for them means they no longer existed. In 2 Peter 3, even you conclude the earth still exists.

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That isn't what it means. The heavens and earth as we know them now will no longer exist. They will be changed and renewed, resulting in the new heavens and new earth.

When the 6th Seal is opened all see the face of the one sitting on the throne. What throne? The same GWT, yet they still exist on the earth. They exist all the way until Armageddon happens, years later. The fire starts at the 6th Seal, the Second Coming. The fire of the final harvest lasts up until the 7th Trumpet. There is a chronological process of the systematic removal of Adam's flesh and blood.

The church is harvested first. Then the sheep and goats. Then the nations. If any are left to harvest it will be those beheaded for avoiding the mark. Then comes the harvest of those with the mark at Armageddon.

Then in Revelation 20:4 there is a resurrection to start the Millennium Kingdom on a fresh heavens and earth, per Isaiah 65.

John did not include the Olivet Discourse in his Gospel. However the book of Revelation would be his witness to the actual events themselves. Yet many attempt to explain Revelation through the other two Gospel accounts of the OD. John watched it unfold. It should be that the other OD accounts should conform to Revelation, not the other way around.

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Everything you said here is complete nonsense. It's not even worth my time to say anymore about it than that.

Spiritual Jew said:

If we were just being transported to another location then it would say we're meeting Him somewhere on earth. But, it says we're meeting Him in the air. Stop trying to get around that.

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Philip and Ezekiel travelled thru the atmosphere. If it was a cloudy day, then; in the clouds.

Spiritual Jew said:

Everything you said here is complete nonsense. It's not even worth my time to say anymore about it than that.

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Exactly what I think about your ill considered and rather petulant posts.