WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2021

Swag365 said:
No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

OK, just another copy and paste. I guess that's all you are able to do. You certainly haven't defended your notion that salvation can be lost.

otoh, I DID prove that salvation is permanent, by the 2 very clear verses in my last post.

And since you won't address either verse, seems there's nothing more to discuss.

You could have at least asked your priest to help you out.

:wave:

Swag365 · Nov 13, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, just another copy and paste. I guess that's all you are able to do. You certainly haven't defended your notion that salvation can be lost.

otoh, I DID prove that salvation is permanent, by the 2 very clear verses in my last post.

And since you won't address either verse, seems there's nothing more to discuss.

You could have at least asked your priest to help you out.

No, you did not prove that salvation is permanent. I reject your tradition of men.

Psalm 27 · Nov 13, 2021

saulus paulus said:
q1, Told no, seek christ, not God of the old testament.
q2. for me, yesm but I think others are saved on different paths.
q3. Do not know
q4. Never seen

Jesus is The God of the Old Testament...

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2021

Swag365 said:
No, you did not prove that salvation is permanent. I reject your tradition of men.

Prove it with your single best and most unambiguous verse that states the opposite.

However, we both know that both John 5:24 and 10:28 absolutely prove that the gift of eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes in Christ, and recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

That really seems to bother the RCC but that's what Jesus taught.

Why is what Jesus taught so offensive to some?

Swag365 · Nov 13, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Prove it with your single best and most unambiguous verse that states the opposite.

However, we both know that both John 5:24 and 10:28 absolutely prove that the gift of eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes in Christ, and recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

That really seems to bother the RCC but that's what Jesus taught.

Why is what Jesus taught so offensive to some?

No, those verses do not prove OSAS. And Jesus did not teach OSAS. I reject your tradition of men.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2021

Swag365 said:
No, those verses do not prove OSAS. And Jesus did not teach OSAS. I reject your tradition of men.

No, you actually reject what Jesus said so plainly.

However, as I said, there are more verses that also teach eternal security.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

What you cannot deny (I hope) is that those who are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit are God's possession.

And v.14 says the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a deposit that GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance until the redemption of God's possession.

See? Verses that unambiguously teach eternal security.

But wait. There are more.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

If Paul believed that salvation could be lost, what a perfect verse to add that warning.

But, instead, even those who "grieve the Holy Spirit" are reminded from 1:13,14 that they are sealed for the day of redemption.

Does "redemption" sound anything like loss of salvation? Obviously not.

Even more.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

So, based on Eph 1:13,14 and these 2 verses above, just what do you suppose is "guaranteed to come"?

So, as you can see if your eyes are open, there ARE verses that very plainly and unambiguously state that our salvation is eternally secure.

The teaching that salvation can be lost is what is man-made.

I'd even say it is a doctrine of demons. What better way to keep believers off guard and worrying about getting into heaven than the demonic teaching that God may pull the plug on you.

Swag365 · Nov 13, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No, you actually reject what Jesus said so plainly.

However, as I said, there are more verses that also teach eternal security.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

What you cannot deny (I hope) is that those who are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit are God's possession.

And v.14 says the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a deposit that GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance until the redemption of God's possession.

See? Verses that unambiguously teach eternal security.

But wait. There are more.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

If Paul believed that salvation could be lost, what a perfect verse to add that warning.

But, instead, even those who "grieve the Holy Spirit" are reminded from 1:13,14 that they are sealed for the day of redemption.

Does "redemption" sound anything like loss of salvation? Obviously not.

Even more.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

So, based on Eph 1:13,14 and these 2 verses above, just what do you suppose is "guaranteed to come"?

So, as you can see if your eyes are open, there ARE verses that very plainly and unambiguously state that our salvation is eternally secure.

The teaching that salvation can be lost is what is man-made.

I'd even say it is a doctrine of demons. What better way to keep believers off guard and worrying about getting into heaven than the demonic teaching that God may pull the plug on you.

No, those verses do not prove OSAS. And Jesus did not teach OSAS. I reject your tradition of men.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2021

Swag365 said:
No, those verses do not prove OSAS. And Jesus did not teach OSAS.

But you can't explain what Jesus did teach in the 2 verses. So why does your opinion matter?

I reject your tradition of men.

Those who can only repeat themselves, but offer up NO evidence for their opinions, reveal that they have no evidence for their opinions.

As you have.

You don't need to do any more copy and paste's.

Swag365 · Nov 13, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
But you can't explain what Jesus did teach in the 2 verses. So why does your opinion matter?

Those who can only repeat themselves, but offer up NO evidence for their opinions, reveal that they have no evidence for their opinions.

As you have.

You don't need to do any more copy and paste's.

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

Swag365 · Nov 13, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
i'm kinda curious as to why you keep posting, I mean rather, copy and pasting.

You have nothing to say, really, other than your opinion. Without any evidence, ya got nothing. And you won't provide any evidence. Just your opinion.

Unlike myself. I provided verses that very clearly teach eternal security, with such wording as "shall never perish", "guaranteed until the redemption of God's possession" and "guaranteeing what is to come".

Do you have any idea what these verses are referring to, since you reject eternal security?

I can't imagine.

No, those verses do not prove OSAS. And Jesus did not teach OSAS. I reject your tradition of men.

prophecy_uk · Nov 14, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
However, as I said, there are more verses that also teach eternal security.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

What you cannot deny (I hope) is that those who are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit are God's possession.

Sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit, that God would grant to them the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, to have enlightened eyes to know the hope of the calling ( without that Spirit they had a promise and no understanding of what that seal is)...

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

LoveGodsWord · Nov 14, 2021

Swag365 said:
No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

Hello Swag, thanks very much for sharing your view in this thread. It has been much appreciated.

God bless.

prophecy_uk · Nov 15, 2021

Also we know that seducers do not play fair in the end of the world, they only play a deceptive game..

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

jamiec · Nov 16, 2021

IMO, the NT records different ideas on the matter, without settling which, if any, is the correct answer. And as neither the texts, nor any of their readers, can settle the matter, one is left to guess.

Maybe there is something missing from the investigation, that should be investigated, and that all the people writing or being written to, took for granted, as being so obvious that it didn't need to be mentioned.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 18, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Also we know that seducers do not play fair in the end of the world, they only play a deceptive game..

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Agreed so this is like a temptation to lead us away from God and His Word which the bible warns us about. If we as believers cannot depart the faith there would be no warnings given in the bible not to depart the faith.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 18, 2021

jamiemb said:
IMO, the NT records different ideas on the matter, without settling which, if any, is the correct answer. And as neither the texts, nor any of their readers, can settle the matter, one is left to guess.

Maybe there is something missing from the investigation, that should be investigated, and that all the people writing or being written to, took for granted, as being so obvious that it didn't need to be mentioned.

I disagree. Please read page one of this OP and show me scripture that says we can as believers depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life. If you cannot then there is no such thing as once saved always saved (OSAS).

LoveGodsWord · Nov 18, 2021

Psalm 27 said:
Jesus is The God of the Old Testament...

Agreed and the new. Do you have any comments on the OP?

jamiec · Nov 18, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I disagree. Please read page one of this OP and show me scripture that says we can as believers depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life. If you cannot then there is no such thing as once saved always saved (OSAS).

ISTM that some passages support OSAS, while others support the opposite. So I don’t think that the NT as a whole decides the matter either way. Maybe both are true, in different circumstances.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 18, 2021

jamiemb said:
ISTM that some passages support OSAS, while others support the opposite. So I don’t think that the NT as a whole decides the matter either way. Maybe both are true, in different circumstances.

How does this address the post you are quoting from? Please show me a single scripture that says we can as believers choose to depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life? If you cannot then there is no such thing as once saved always saved (OSAS).

Take Care.

jamiec · Nov 18, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
How does this address the post you are quoting from? Please show me a single scripture that says we can as believers choose to depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life? If you cannot then there is no such thing as once saved always saved (OSAS).

Take Care.

There are passages that both sides can quote - without convincing each other. That the NT does not settle the matter either way, STM to follow from that.

One could argue that the NT is consistent but incoherent - but that would imply that the NT is meant as a systematic theology, which I think it is not meant to be. I would rather believe that it records different human theologies of salvation, than believe that it is meant to be perfectly consistent, but gives “an uncertain sound” on this (or any other) issue. I see no difficulty in believing both this, and, that it is fully inspired.

WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

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