Are the saints in Paradise and Heaven glorified or waiting for us?

GoldenKingGaze said:

Sanctification is becoming like Christ Jesus, sinless and one hundred percent loving. After death, further cleaning, healing and fillings of love take place.

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I'm with @Mark Quayle on this one. There's nothing in the Bible that supports this idea you hold of sanctification after death. I don't know where you got that from? You don't appear to me to believe in some "intermediate" place; such as the RCC church has a "purgatory".

GoldenKingGaze said:

Jesus mentioned in the parable of the workers in the vineyard, that some complain when being rewarded, about the others receiving the same, who worked fewer hours. This represents to us the time when God rewards us for what good we have done.

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God said to Abram, "I am your shield and your exceeding great reward." The "reward" is Christ. So thus this parable would make sense, that all the workers get the same "payment".

GoldenKingGaze said:

Holy angels have kept their obedience through the fall and attacks of Satan and his cohorts. By this Satan has no power to tempt them any longer.

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What is the current state of whether or not angels who haven't fallen can still fall? I have not found anything in the Bible that would clearly say "yes" or "no" to that question.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Adam and we his descendants would have a sinlessness also, if Adam and the generations after had never eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But now it is to be instilled by the blood of Christ and the power of the resurrection. For some this may begin on Earth, for others in the afterlife.

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Are you saying that you believe people can still be redeemed after they die?

The Righterzpen said:

What is the current state of whether or not angels who haven't fallen can still fall? I have not found anything in the Bible that would clearly say "yes" or "no" to that question.

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Lol this is a very Reformed question!

We have nothing to say whether unfallen angels have (or don't have) genuine ability to choose, nor even so concerning the fallen angels repenting. We have only the witness of Scripture concerning the past and present, and implications by prophecy concerning the future, that what they have done they will continue to do. If it is no longer the ability to choose, so be it. If they do have the ability to choose, they always choose to continue to do as they have been doing.

Strangely, this is how it works with humanity too, in the end of reasoning on the matter! Look at the awful condemnation and blessing of Revelation 22:11 “Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

We say that we choose to obey, and in fact, we indeed do so, if we obey, and likewise with the lost: they ALWAYS choose to disobey, if not by the visible (surface) deed, by the motivation, the invisible will, the enmity with Christ, sinful nature to which they are enslaved, and by which they choose. Yet each choice is still willed choice, each one an individual sin.

Mark Quayle said:

Lol this is a very Reformed question!

We have nothing to say whether unfallen angels have (or don't have) genuine ability to choose, nor even so concerning the fallen angels repenting. We have only the witness of Scripture concerning the past and present, and implications by prophecy concerning the future, that what they have done they will continue to do. If it is no longer the ability to choose, so be it. If they do have the ability to choose, they always choose to continue to do as they have been doing.

Strangely, this is how it works with humanity too, in the end of reasoning on the matter! Look at the awful condemnation and blessing of Revelation 22:11 “Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

We say that we choose to obey, and in fact, we indeed do so, if we obey, and likewise with the lost: they ALWAYS choose to disobey, if not by the visible (surface) deed, by the motivation, the invisible will, the enmity with Christ, sinful nature to which they are enslaved, and by which they choose. Yet each choice is still willed choice, each one an individual sin.

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Hum.... yeah; you raise some good points!

Revelation 22:11 never stuck out to me in that context before though. Interesting. Despite the fact that it was never lost on me that regeneration is required for all human obedience to God.

I've just always figured that once an angel chose to transgress; they became "depraved totally" and no longer possessed the desire not to transgress. Now whether or not they technically possess the choice? That's another question. Doesn't really matter if they do though; because from first transgression on, evidence points to that they always choose wrong.

I do believe it's true that fallen angels perform no acts of goodness. Jesus made a statement about Satan being a liar and has been "from the beginning".

I'll have to go look that up. Did Satan fall; from the point he was created / consciously aware? (I don't know? And not actually that it still wouldn't be a moot point now anyways, if I can't find an answer. Curious though.)

Which I suppose could raise another interesting question; do angels actually have "a conscience"? Obviously they are sentient entities that understand the concept of disobedience; assuming also they have a will to decide whether or not to transgress. Doesn't seem to me to make sense that they wouldn't; because just like humans, they are still held accountable for their transgression.

Difference between humans and angels though is obviously there is no redemption plan for angels. Which, seems as why it would be that once they decide to disobey; they fall morally, totally and completely. And thus Revelation 22:11; the wicked do wicked things. If nothing else; it testifies to the extent of corruption the fall created.

Hum..... more stuff to think about and dig around in the Bible.

The Righterzpen said:

Yeah, actually I am.

Philippines 4
10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.

11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

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I do not see you providing the verses, how we cant be His disciple unless we forsake all we have, so I will do that for us now..




Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Mark 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.


Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

prophecy_uk said:

I do not see you providing the verses, how we cant be His disciple unless we forsake all we have, so I will do that for us now..

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mark 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

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Forsaking this life doesn't mean that one is miserable though, or that one doesn't have earthly material possessions.

Have you forsaken being employed and don't have a place to live?

Are you under the impression that Jesus or the apostles didn't do things to earn money to provide for themselves? Because if that's what you think? You are quite mistaken!

1 Corinthians 11:
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

Ephesians 4:
27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Jesus had a job.
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?

And so did Paul.
Acts 18:3
And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

And So did Peter, Andrew and several other apostles.
John 21:3
Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.

The Righterzpen said:

Forsaking this life doesn't mean that one is miserable though, or that one doesn't have earthly material possessions.

Have you forsaken being employed and don't have a place to live?

Are you under the impression that Jesus or the apostles didn't do things to earn money to provide for themselves? Because if that's what you think? You are quite mistaken!

1 Corinthians 11:
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

Ephesians 4:
27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Jesus had a job.
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?

And so did Paul.
Acts 18:3
And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

And So did Peter, Andrew and several other apostles.
John 21:3
Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.

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Jesus left being the carpenter to be the Messiah at 30, anointed of the Holy Ghost, as Peter James and John then became fishers of men when they left all previous, to follow Jesus..





Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.





Apostle Paul is the example to follow, having no certain dwelling place, a rented house.

Working to have what we need, and to provide for those in need....



1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.




What example do you think you can follow then, that is not of hunger and thirst, to be buffeted, to have no certain dwelling place, to labour working hard with our own hands, to be reviled, to be persecuted and defamed, to be as the filth of the world and to be the offscouring of all things ?



To follow this example of Paul's suffering of Christ, is to follow Christ.

To lose all things for the knowledge of Christ, and to ALSO count them as DUNG. To know the death of Jesus by loosing our life, and hating our life in this world ( you are sorrowful when you hate your life)....


1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;



Then we are followers of this example of Christ, and others are the enemies of the cross of Christ, whose god is their belly, whose glory is their shame, and who continue to mind earthly things..



Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

prophecy_uk said:

What example do you think you can follow then, that is not of hunger and thirst, to be buffeted, to have no certain dwelling place, to labour working hard with our own hands, to be reviled, to be persecuted and defamed, to be as the filth of the world and to be the offscouring of all things ?

To follow this example of Paul's suffering of Christ, is to follow Christ.

To lose all things for the knowledge of Christ, and to ALSO count them as DUNG. To know the death of Jesus by loosing our life, and hating our life in this world ( you are sorrowful when you hate your life)....

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You want to know what I lost for the sake of following Christ? I lost my husband and most of my family of origin. My mother was an alcoholic. My brother is a pedophile. I came back from clean up after Desert Storm with PTSD, chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. I lost my physical mobility in a catastrophic car accident. I've been on crutches for the past 10 years. My young adult son never attained the ability to be employed because of epilepsy; that he's had at least since he was 2 or 3 years old.

I'm 50 years old; and except for the past 10 years; I've lived in rented houses. I was in the military; did clean up after a war. I've lived in foreign countries and other states. I've never been "totally homeless", because I've had some place to go. Be it my grandmother's house, military barracks or whatever. I lived in a domestic violence shelter at one point too. I've had days when I was hungry; with an alcoholic mother, there were days in elementary school that the most I got to eat was the lunch the local public school served. In high school, I went to work to be able to purchase clothing and school supplies and my lunches. But.... I haven't starved to death either.

And so.... now that you've seen my "pedigree of suffering"; what's yours? And more importantly - why do you care? God has been good to myself and my son. He's taken care of us and I'm grateful for that - because I SHOULD BE GRATEFUL!

It's quite clear in 1 Corinthians 11:22 to that Paul expected people to have houses to live in. And I've actually helped people to obtain that end, by volunteering with Habitat for Humanity. Matter of fact; the house I now pay the mortgage on; is because of that organization. So as Scripture says; I worked with my hands to help others. I've taken care of developmentally disabled people the majority of my adult life.

And no, I'm not miserable. I'm not unhappy. Maybe you need to take some magnesium; because you seem to me to be rather depressed!

I've also been "the bottom fell out depressed". I've had extensive mental health treatment and was hospitalized in 1998 for a suicide attempted, that was a result of acute PTSD from Desert Storm triggered by Desert Fox. I'm an incest survivor, an adult child of an alcoholic, a service connected disabled war veteran, and a widow with a permanently disabled son.

And the BEST part of all of this is; THAT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ETERNITY - NONE OF IT'S GOING TO MATTER!

So yeah; I'm ready to see the return of Christ. I'd be happy if He came back before I finished typing this sentence. But no, I'm not miserable. There's no reason to be miserable when God is good!

Paul is the example to follow, following Christ, and the way is told, not to have our life taken from us, but to give it away for God..


Hebrews 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.



As for misery, you are to not love your life to the death, to have lost your life for Christ, to be as told, blessed are you when rejected, persecuted, rejected, hated of all men, it does make you despair of life,even as we read in times for the Apostles, the sufferings of Christ we must be partaker in.


2 Corinthians 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;


Yes they had homes, but the ones who show the faith ( unlike the verse yo provided above they were doing wrongly in) they gave all homes and lands away..



Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.


I can tell you about me, but first I am understanding about you, not by our own testimony, but by what you show of God. ( it tells me who you really are)

prophecy_uk said:

I can tell you about me, but first I am understanding about you, not by our own testimony, but by what you show of God. ( it tells me who you really are)

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Assuming you're talking to me?

Romans 14:4

prophecy_uk said:

Yes they had homes, but the ones who show the faith ( unlike the verse yo provided above they were doing wrongly in) they gave all homes and lands away..

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Prove that Scripturally.

Are you homeless and destitute?

prophecy_uk said:

As for misery, you are to not love your life to the death, to have lost your life for Christ, to be as told, blessed are you when rejected, persecuted, rejected, hated of all men, it does make you despair of life,even as we read in times for the Apostles, the sufferings of Christ we must be partaker in.

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And thus, you are rejecting me and I should be sad about that; ehh? Are you aware that your opinion of me doesn't matter to me?

I'm still grateful because God is good!

The Righterzpen said:

Assuming you're talking to me?

Romans 14:4



And thus, you are rejecting me and I should be sad about that; ehh? Are you aware that your opinion of me doesn't matter to me?

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The Righterzpen "You want to know what I lost for the sake of following Christ? I lost my husband and most of my family of origin."





Romans 14, shows who that is talking to, to the HE....

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master HE standeth or falleth. Yea, HE shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

prophecy_uk said:

The Righterzpen "You want to know what I lost for the sake of following Christ? I lost my husband and most of my family of origin."

Romans 14, shows who that is talking to, to the HE....

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master HE standeth or falleth. Yea, HE shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

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So.... what are you; the "suffering police"?

Why do you judge me? Are you homeless and destitute?

The Righterzpen said:

So.... what are you; the "suffering police"?

Why do you judge me? Are you homeless and destitute?

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I am not judging you, just sharing my beliefs, just be as you said, don't care what I said, nobody ever does.

But, I do care, it is why I am on the forum ( I cant stand to be for too much longer it is not very nice) but I will hold out a little longer.


I did begin that way following Christ, I forsook all I had, and chose a life to have nothing. Where I am is not certain.

The Righterzpen said:

So.... what are you; the "suffering police"?

Why do you judge me? Are you homeless and destitute?

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Suffering is not what anyone wants is it, I hate it myself these days, I am 49, not far from your age.


But, unfortunately, I understand to share in the sufferings of Christ, is like wanting to take a part of that off Christ ( who does long suffer still) and to want to do good, well and kindly in thoughts of Him suffering for us.

prophecy_uk said:

I am not judging you, just sharing my beliefs, just be as you said, don't care what I said, nobody ever does.

But, I do care, it is why I am on the forum ( I cant stand to be for too much longer it is not very nice) but I will hold out a little longer.

I did begin that way following Christ, I forsook all I had, and chose a life to have nothing. Where I am is not certain.

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You sound very depressed; and you don't have to be. Depression isn't "a good sign of suffering"; it's a black hole and it's one you don't have to be stuck in. Really, you don't.

I've been through a lot of .... poo in life. And yes, you are right, there are a lot of people on this forum who aren't very nice. (A lot of "pharisees"; if you know what I mean.) Believers are suppose to support each other and do what they can to help others (particularly believers) who are feeling discouraged. There are some really solid people on here that are really good at encouraging those who feel down.

There are people on this forum too, who have professional degrees in psychology / social work who can help people struggling with specific things. I publish a lot of stories on FanFiction too; and I tend to get young men who are struggling with things like homosexuality and inappropriate content who ask for my help; (based a lot on what I write about). So if you want to message me; I'm pretty confident any thing you tell me that you are struggling with, is not likely to surprise me. There isn't much I haven't heard at this point.

prophecy_uk said:

Suffering is not what anyone wants is it, I hate it myself these days, I am 49, not far from your age.

But, unfortunately, I understand to share in the sufferings of Christ, is like wanting to take a part of that off Christ ( who does long suffer still) and to want to do good, well and kindly in thoughts of Him suffering for us.

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The common lot of man is something Jesus took on because He wanted to provide redemption. He didn't do it because He wanted you to feel sorry for Him. That wasn't the point. He did it to demonstrate to us; that He understands the suffering we face. Even when we feel like we've fallen into a black hole. The Holy Spirit is called "the Comforter" and when we feel like there's no one left to "stand in the gap" when we feel like all that's around us is abject darkness. The Comforter is there to comfort us.

We all get sad. People we care about die. We all suffer loss. Sometimes we feel like it's going to crush us. That should be a passing phase in life though; not how we perceive our lot in life. God does care. He really does.

If you want to talk about stuff that's bugging you; you can message me. I've spent many hours walking down this road. I know how bad it can feel.

Prayers for your state of psychological well being!

We bear the reproach of Christ, it is feeling what Jesus felt, understanding it, sharing and being partakers of Christs sufferings...





Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.






People cant encourage us to go on the wide path to destruction, that one many are on and is too easy to find, as it is the one without those sufferings, reproaches and sorrows and sacrifices.


The narrow path few find, requires sincere belief in Christ, to understand all the suffering He went through, so that we do not faint when we have lost and hate our life in this world, until the death..




Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ecclesiastes 7:2 It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.
3 Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.
4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.




See the mark in the foreheads of the ones who sigh and cry for all the abominations going on around them, and see the name of the father in their foreheads..



Ezekiel 9:4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.





Now see without that mark by God, they have the mark in their right hand or forehead of the beast, and they do not know they have a lie in their right hand ( a lie of the devil) and they do not sign and cry, they are not, blessed are they who weep now, they are woe, to those who laugh now..



Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,


Isaiah 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

prophecy_uk said:

We bear the reproach of Christ, it is feeling what Jesus felt, understanding it, sharing and being partakers of Christs sufferings...

Click to expand...

And so you think that having a diagnosis of clinical depression some how translates into you being more righteous than me, because I'm grateful and not depressed?

prophecy_uk said:

People cant encourage us to go on the wide path to destruction, that one many are on and is too easy to find, as it is the one without those sufferings, reproaches and sorrows and sacrifices.

The narrow path few find, requires sincere belief in Christ, to understand all the suffering He went through, so that we do not faint when we have lost and hate our life in this world, until the death..

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The other problem you have here, is that you don't even really comprehend what the the suffering of Christ actually was. Jesus did not have a major depressive episode. Jesus was facing the wrath of God to atone for sin. In all your "sorrow", "loss" and "hate for your life"; what you feel currently is not the wrath of God.

Now on the other side of eternity, you very well may know what it's like to feel totally forsaken by God; but you ARE NOT enduring the suffering of Christ. I can confidently tell you that now. The emotional pain you feel right now IS NOT you somehow atoning for sin. You can get that silly self righteous thought out of your head, that you are enduring the suffering of Christ; because you're not!

Jesus had a nature that was Divine and a nature that was human; put together in one individual. Jesus felt the love of the Father and the love of the Spirit as well as the presence of his own Divinity through out the entirety of his life. Yeah, humans didn't understand him, they made fun of him, they said stupid stuff to him. He endured being hungry, and cold, and tired, and injured, and probably sick too.

As he grew up, he came to be aware there was evil all around him. There were drug dealers, pedophiles, human traffickers, corrupt politicians, people who deliberately spread plagues, Godless commie totalitarians who tried to take away everyone's freedom, people who sacrificed children and ate them in satanic rituals. (Why do you think Mary and Joseph were so "freaked out" when Jesus turned up missing at 12 years old? Do you think they didn't know what danger this 12 year old faced in Jerusalem. It would have been like losing your kid in NYC.) But Jesus knew the Father, the Spirit and his own Divinity were still present in his own life. He got comfort from that; even though he understood that he was very different than any other human being around him.

So he'd pray for understanding as to what his purpose in life was; and psalm 139 is one of the psalms that explains to us how Jesus came to understand why he was here. He came to know his purpose, because he'd dream about it.

Now imagine dreaming about being cast into hell and being forsaken by the only entities in life that really mattered to you. And so now here he was in his human nature knowing he had to lean on the same entities he knew were going to forsake him as part of this atonement. These entities that he'd known his entire existence. These entities that He knew back in eternity; not only before there was an incarnation, but before there was a creation. These entities that he had perfect fellowship with. These entities that he knew cared about him.

He would face death and the wrath of God, literally all alone. Not only would the Father and Spirit depart from him. He'd have his soul cast into hell and his Divinity ripped from his own humanity in order to actually kill him. (That's why Jesus died. He didn't die because the crucifixion had killed him; he died because his Divinity had been ripped from his humanity.) Everything he was as both the "God-man" and as a mere human was literally torn apart. He knew that was going to happen and he had to be willing to allow that process to take its course in order to atone for sin. The other two entities of the Godhead did assist the human side of Jesus's sanity, by the "angel of death" (personification of God in His wrath); removing the breath of life which caused Jesus's human soul to descend into hell. That was a "painful mercy" to those of us who'd be atoned for, that Jesus would retain the mental wherewithal to complete the process. (Being condemned to death by the human civil authority God had set over them.)

And THAT was suffering that you DO NOT UNDERSTAND and that you ARE NOT ENDURING!

Jesus did not count his "suffering" as having nearly starved to death in the wilderness. He didn't count his suffering as having to depended on other people to have a place to sleep at night in the 3.5 years that he preached.

Do you think Jesus didn't bear the responsibility to maintain a household and take care of his mother and siblings after Joseph died? Jesus was the oldest son. Who's shoulders do you think that responsibility fell on. Jesus never had children of his own, but he certainly knew what it was like to raise children. He knew the pressure of having to "put food on the table" and "pay the bills".

Matter of fact the "wedding in Canna of Galilee" that is recorded in the New Testament; the bride, would have been Jesus's youngest sister. We know this by the Greek which indicates to us that Mary (Jesus's mom) was "in attendance". That Greek word doesn't mean simply that Mary was "just a guest". She was one of the people responsible for putting the wedding together. 1st century Jewish weddings were the combination of pooling of resources provided by both family of bride and groom, in this marriage arrangement that was "contracted" for the sake of the children getting married.

Jesus wasn't just some homeless dude that roamed the country side his entire life. He had human responsibilities that he attended to as part of his "learning obedience".

prophecy_uk said:

See the mark in the foreheads of the ones who sigh and cry for all the abominations going on around them, and see the name of the father in their foreheads..

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The mark of the beast has nothing to do with people being happy, people enjoying events like going to parties, weddings, Thanksgiving dinners, or buying their kids presents for Christmas. And PARTICULARLY it has nothing to do with people being GRATEFUL TO GOD for supplying their needs. Jesus even said concerning food clothing and shelter that the Father "knows you have need of these things". (Matthew 6:8 and Luke 12:30)

prophecy_uk said:

Now see without that mark by God, they have the mark in their right hand or forehead of the beast, and they do not know they have a lie in their right hand ( a lie of the devil) and they do not sign and cry, they are not, blessed are they who weep now, they are woe, to those who laugh now..

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I don't know if what you are believing is coming out of your depressed state of deprivation; or if it's something you're being taught? But it's deception. Suffering from depression does not make you holy!

If you want to love life and see good days, you follow this:


1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

prophecy_uk said:

If you want to love life and see good days, you follow this:

1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

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And so do you now somehow believe that I've done evil by pointing these things out to you? That I've somehow done evil by pointing out that you're not enduring the suffering of Christ and that you are actually twisting the Scripture; and ultimately to your own destruction?

You come off as not only depressed, but also self righteous in your depression. Like somehow depression is a badge of righteousness and that God has called you to proclaim to others who are not depressed, that they are somehow condemned because they "aren't suffering".

Well, I can certainly attest; and with God as my witness that I've suffered in this life. I'll probably suffer more; but so what. To a certain extent, suffering is just part of the human condition.

So no, I'm not committing evil against you simply by pointing out the truth. You are NOT enduring the suffering of Christ. And it's not your job to point out to everyone else what sin you think they are committing. (Committing the sin of gratitude? Imagine that!)

So you want to know why people on CF "all seem so mean" to you? Have you considered that maybe peoples' reactions are based on how you are coming across? What you've said to me is flat out not the truth of Scripture. And I've tried multiple approaches to address that with you. You appear to me to be very depressed and I feel for your suffering. Depression is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]er! Been there, done that! But being depressed does not make you more righteous than someone who's not. And I know you want to believe really badly that your experience is "the suffering of Christ"; but it's not. You are suffering from a fixable (with magnesium) chemical imbalance in the brain; you are not enduring the wrath of God!

I pray some day you come to understand what the truth is and that you seek treatment for your depression!

prophecy_uk said:

But, unfortunately, I understand to share in the sufferings of Christ, is like wanting to take a part of that off Christ ( who does long suffer still) and to want to do good, well and kindly in thoughts of Him suffering for us.

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Also, Jesus is not suffering now. To be "long suffering" means to be patient. Long suffering does not mean eternal depression.

And also consider that what people like me have ,(or may have) said to you, concerning the difference between human suffering and the suffering of Christ, are actually directed by God pointing you to Scriptural truth.

Hebrews 12:
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: