Our Circumstances

Mclachlan

Active Member
Oct 10, 2021
161
165
23
Melbourne
✟23,419.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Everything you are experiencing at the moment is according to God's plan, for good, for His glory.

In suffering we can be sure that God is with us, that he will bring good out of everything we experience even though it may be impossible for us to see.

Even death itself is for our good, to be with Christ, for His glory.

15 When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him." 16 So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, "Your father gave this command before he died: 17 'Say to Joseph, "Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you."' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19 But Joseph said to them, "Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones." Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them. (Genesis 50:15-21)
 

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
For we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Everything you are experiencing at the moment is according to God's plan, for good, for His glory.

Hmmm...Does this include rape, murder, incest, genocide, child slave-labor and so on?

Jeremiah 32:34-35
34 "But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


Have you noticed that "the good" mentioned in Romans 8:28 is described more clearly in the next verse?: To be conformed to the image of God's Son. All things - good and bad - will, if we let them, be the means through which God makes us more like His Son. This is "the good" to which God is working all things. And so, we know that whatever we face - even death - is an opportunity for God to make us more like Jesus. We don't have to wonder, then, what God is doing in a certain circumstance. Always, at least, we know that He intends the circumstance as a means of conforming us to the image of His Son.
 
Upvote 0

Mclachlan

Active Member
Oct 10, 2021
161
165
23
Melbourne
✟23,419.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Have you noticed that "the good" mentioned in Romans 8:28 is described more clearly in the next verse?: To be conformed to the image of God's Son. All things - good and bad - will, if we let them, be the means through which God makes us more like His Son. This is "the good" to which God is working all things. And so, we know that whatever we face - even death - is an opportunity for God to make us more like Jesus. We don't have to wonder, then, what God is doing in a certain circumstance. Always, at least, we know that He intends the circumstance as a means of conforming us to the image of His Son.
Romans 8:29-39

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
Upvote 0

Mclachlan

Active Member
Oct 10, 2021
161
165
23
Melbourne
✟23,419.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Romans 8:29-39

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Hmmm...Does this include rape, murder, incest, genocide, child slave-labor and so on?
This statement is out of context and creating a false narrative for the sake of disagreement.
Paul clearly is not speaking of horrible things that can happen in the world and saying that
God works good into it, and yet God is Able....
The context, and most Bibles that use paragraph designations begin this narrative at verse 26
"Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities..."
If your "infirmity" is that you are a murderer or a rapist, society will put you down, and Paul
is not saying that God works good in that. On the other hand, if you have been a victim of
something such as rape, it is a false statement to say that God can't find away to work good
into your life in the aftermath of something horrible. I think your statement here reflects that.

To be conformed to the image of God's Son. All things - good and bad - will, if we let them, be the means through which God makes us more like His Son.
"Let every matter be established by 2 or 3 witnesses:"
The means by which we are conformed to the image of God's Son can be very unpleasant.
To try to label these experiences as "good or bad" is the very false notion that Paul is dispelling.
In other words, it may seem bad to you, but it is all good in Christ. Here is a true witness.

Hebrews 12:3-11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Jeremiah 32:34-35
34 "But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

I fail to see how this is relevant to the topic either. This merely supports your Hmmmm...statement
by pushing further from the context of Romans 8, when there is no reason why we can't come to
a clear understanding by remaining within the context of false perceptions people may have
about what to expect from the Christian walk, and not general observations evolving from

"the knowledge of good and evil". Rather, to receive from the tree of life that we now have access to, but requires God's chastisement, which at times may seem harsh, but is always grounded in His Love.

Lastly, and I pray you can receive it, I have seen other responses, on one of mine recently,
where you preface your comment with Hmmmm, as if to convey the idea of "I have given this
quite a bit of thought, and find fault in your statements." I don't buy it. You do originate well-
thought out threads, whereas your responses to others seem a bit hasty. Even now, I am
coming up on a full hour in writing this, because we owe it to one another to give just as much
consideration in a response post as in an OP post #1.

What I found here is a young brother trying to be encouraging to others, reading on line
in a discipleship sub forum to keep the faith. I saw nothing to suggest that he, or Paul,
were suggesting that "defiling God's Temple with idolatry" is somehow okay. That is easily
dismissed by many other scriptures, and the reason I stated that the Jeremiah 32 quote
was off topic. Unless of course, there is some elaboration I need to see your point clearly.


 
  • Like
Reactions: Mclachlan
Upvote 0

Mclachlan

Active Member
Oct 10, 2021
161
165
23
Melbourne
✟23,419.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thanks @Minister Monardo for your encouragement.

@aiki said it too, albeit in slight contradiction to his first statement which might havebeen something more general.

God turns even the most horrid things that happen to a believer into good.
For the unbeliever it is not so.

But whether we like it or not God is sovereign over all things and as said best by Paul, 'all things work according to the counsel of his will to the praise of his glory.' (Para)

God is in control even when it seems like he is not.

Peace with you both
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
This statement is out of context and creating a false narrative for the sake of disagreement.

No, it's drawing attention to a view people take about God's sovereignty: that He is the Ultimate Source of moral evil, causing the rapist to rape and the murderer to murder. My purpose wasn't to be disagreeable but to probe to see what Mclachlan thought on this head. Why did you assume I simply wanted to disagree?

Paul clearly is not speaking of horrible things that can happen in the world and saying that
God works good into it, and yet God is Able....

I know of many who would disagree with you on this reading. Which is why I was curious to know what Mclachlan thought.

If your "infirmity" is that you are a murderer or a rapist, society will put you down, and Paul is not saying that God works good in that. On the other hand, if you have been a victim of something such as rape, it is a false statement to say that God can't find away to work good into your life in the aftermath of something horrible. I think your statement here reflects that.

As I pointed out to Mclachlan, the fundamental (though, not the only) "good" God works out in every circumstance we face, - evil or not - is the good of becoming more like Jesus. This, Paul clarifies in verse 29. As you seem to agree here, this is not so for the murderer or rapist - unless, of course, they've repented of their terrible sin and trusted in Christ to save them and give them new, spiritual life.

"Let every matter be established by 2 or 3 witnesses:"
The means by which we are conformed to the image of God's Son can be very unpleasant.

Amen to that! But not always, right? Sometimes, as Paul wrote to the Roman church, it is the experience of the goodness of God that leads men to repentance (Romans 2:4), to a knowledge of His mercy, love and grace, and thus to greater Christ-likeness.

To try to label these experiences as "good or bad" is the very false notion that Paul is dispelling.
In other words, it may seem bad to you, but it is all good in Christ. Here is a true witness.

Hebrews 12:3-11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

??? I'm puzzled by your remarks here. Earlier in Romans 8, Paul wrote of suffering (Romans 8:17), acknowledging that it was common to the Christian experience. He didn't try to reframe or re-describe the suffering, however, but called it what it was: suffering. He went on in chapter 8 to write of "groanings too deep to be uttered," rising from the distress of waiting for the "redemption of his body." I'm not sure how Paul's words in this regard can be construed as Paul teaching that there is no good or bad experiences because all experiences are ultimately bent by God to the "good" of Romans 8:28. "Suffering" and "groanings to deep to be uttered" don't suggest to me that Paul thought what he was describing was good.

The writer of Hebrews in the passage you cite above appears to me to agree with Paul, acknowledging, too, that God's chastening is painful, which only a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] would rework to mean "good."

Do you think that the believer who is burned at the stake, or whose head is sawn off by a radical Muslim, or who is imprisoned and tortured for their faith in a Chinese prison, can call these painful, horrifying experiences good? Paul seems to be indicating that the ultimate result of conformity to Christ through these horrendous experiences is good, but not the experiences themselves. It isn't just that these terrible experiences seem bad, they actually are very bad! Which is why those who saw off the heads of Christians, or burn them to death, or imprison them are condemned by God and stand under His wrathful judgment.

I fail to see how this is relevant to the topic either.

Well, I wasn't actually writing with a view to making sure you could see the relevancy of my remarks...

This merely supports your Hmmmm...statement
by pushing further from the context of Romans 8, when there is no reason why we can't come to
a clear understanding by remaining within the context of false perceptions people may have
about what to expect from the Christian walk, and not general observations evolving from

"the knowledge of good and evil".

I'm not sure you understood why I offered the passage from Jeremiah 32. I did so to point out from Scripture that there are some things people do that "don't enter the mind of God that they should do." In other words, God is not meticulously ordaining every action and thought people have - especially evil ones, like burning their children to death on the molten arms of the pagan god, Molech. This was offered, in particular, in response to Mclachlan's assertion that,

"Everything you are experiencing at the moment is according to God's plan, for good, for His glory."

The word "everything" that Mclachlan used necessarily includes the rapist who rapes, the murderer who murders, and the person who sacrifices their child upon the red-hot arms of Molech. But God, through the prophet Jeremiah, said there are things people do - evil things - that it never entered His mind that they should do. It seems, then, that "everything" is too strong an assertion to make about God's plan. If I accept Mclachlan's statement as he gave it, I would have to accept that God has ordained rape, murder and child sacrifice, that He planned these things, and did so for some obscure connection to His glory. How God is glorified in rape, murder, or human sacrifice, I don't know. And so, I made my comments to Mclachlan.

Lastly, and I pray you can receive it, I have seen other responses, on one of mine recently,
where you preface your comment with Hmmmm, as if to convey the idea of "I have given this
quite a bit of thought, and find fault in your statements." I don't buy it. You do originate well-
thought out threads, whereas your responses to others seem a bit hasty. Even now, I am
coming up on a full hour in writing this, because we owe it to one another to give just as much
consideration in a response post as in an OP post #1.

Brother, you can assume what you like about my motives. It's...unfortunate that you want to assign less than honorable motives for my comments, but I can't control how you'll respond to what I write. For myself, I simply read and respond to what folks write because I am very interested in God's truth and in what people think and teach about it and because I hope to aid fellow believers in refining, deepening and clarifying God's life-changing truth. I've been studying God's word for a long time now and so my views on its contents are fairly well established, precise and, comprehensive. This inevitably comes to bear upon how I respond to the posts of others. But online, mostly, and especially on CF, people seem to want to be free of all challenge or constriction of their views and bridle, as you are, against a more...seasoned or mature, understanding of God's word. Okay. All I can do is offer the perspective I have and the rest is up to God. I would, though, really appreciate it if you'd confine your comments to my actual remarks and not speculate on my motives for writing them. I'm not nearly as unpleasant a fellow as you suspect that I am.

What I found here is a young brother trying to be encouraging to others, reading on line
in a discipleship sub forum to keep the faith. I saw nothing to suggest that he, or Paul,
were suggesting that "defiling God's Temple with idolatry" is somehow okay. That is easily
dismissed by many other scriptures, and the reason I stated that the Jeremiah 32 quote
was off topic. Unless of course, there is some elaboration I need to see your point clearly.

I think you've misunderstood my remarks to Mclachlan (see above). I appreciate Mclachlan's desire to encourage others, too. But, judging from his picture, I am much older than he is and have a much longer association with God and His word and from this long association sought to benefit my younger Christian brother. Maybe it's just the effect of having passed middle age that this is my thinking, but my goal wasn't to stifle or condemn Mclachlan's words, only to refine them.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
God turns even the most horrid things that happen to a believer into good.
For the unbeliever it is not so.

In my remarks, you can see, perhaps, why this is not so. God doesn't turn rape into something good. That's impossible. Rape is evil and cannot be transformed into a good. But, God can bring a good end out of rape which, in the case of Romans 8:28-29, is growth toward greater Christ-likeness. This may seem like unnecessary semantics to you, but I have seen Christians urge other Christians to give thanks for horrendous experiences and see them as good and of God because they have taken the view you are asserting here. But, as the prophet Jeremiah declared, God has nothing to do with the evil of wicked people, the idea of their evil not entering His mind at all. A father does not have to cheer the rape of his daughter because God will turn her rape into something good; a wife doesn't have to thank God for the murder of her husband because God is going to turn his murder into something good; a teenager doesn't have to praise God for being made a quadriplegic in a car accident because God is going to make his accident into something good. This is a foul and cruel way of thinking, making God into a monster.

If the raped daughter is made more like Christ by being raped, this consequence may be praised as good; if the wife comes to be more like Jesus in suffering the loss of her husband, God has brought good out of her loss; if the young quadriplegic grows in his Christ-likeness as a result of being permanently paralyzed, great good has come of his injury. If believers say, though, that evil can be made into good rather than that evil may be turned to a good result, they end up having to cheer for evil because it isn't actually evil but good in disguise. This is a horrible and dangerous way of thinking that has driven people far from God. Be careful, young man, what you are urging others to think!

But whether we like it or not God is sovereign over all things and as said best by Paul, 'all things work according to the counsel of his will to the praise of his glory.' (Para)

God is in control even when it seems like he is not.

Yes, God is in ultimate control of everything. But this doesn't mean God is meticulously controlling everything. This meticulous control idea requires that God be the Author of evil, which the Bible flatly and repeatedly denies. But, you are right that, from our finite, human perspective, what God is doing is sometimes very obscure and scary, and impossible to reconcile with common sense, or what we think of as love. The story of Job is a good example, or the story of Gideon, or Joseph, or Daniel, etc.

I would encourage you to check out the following link:

www.soteriology101.com
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I think you've misunderstood my remarks to Mclachlan (see above). I appreciate Mclachlan's desire to encourage others, too. But, judging from his picture, I am much older than he is and have a much longer association with God and His word and from this long association sought to benefit my younger Christian brother. Maybe it's just the effect of having passed middle age that this is my thinking, but my goal wasn't to stifle or condemn Mclachlan's words, only to refine them.
All sincere thanks for you taking the time to elaborate on this topic. I feel like we are giving
thorough consideration to the scriptures, whereby we can be blessed in discussion.
If I question motives, it is only to better understand the thinking behind the scriptures being quoted, and how we align our thinking. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
I apologize for going too in depth in searching out what we were all saying for agreement sake.
Basically, I applied to you what I felt you were doing to @Mclachlan.
Mc's thread came out of Romans 8, and I don't see Paul's intent directed towards rape and murder,
nor did I see that intent in the OP. So he used the word everything. Paul used "all things".

The word "everything" that Mclachlan used necessarily includes the rapist who rapes, the murderer who murders, and the person who sacrifices their child upon the red-hot arms of Molech.
I don't see that necessity, but it does illuminate your thinking.
You say that from experience many have twisted ideas about human horrors and God's plan.
I agree, but I do not see those notions being expressed in the OP. I did not mean to suggest
your motives were dishonorable, and I apologize for not being more careful in my wording.
In short, I saw your response as broadening the topic out of curiosity, as you have said, to
search out his understanding, in order to correct any misconceptions that you are familiar
with by your experiences. I didn't see those misconceptions in the OP. You introduced them,
to correct them, as necessary. Looking at his responses to your post, he seems a bit taken
aback by your Hmmm...comment, and clearly so was I. I am 65, and a lifelong Christian,
and if your concern was for his understanding, you should see that bringing murder and
rape into the discussion was beyond the scope of his intent. What do you think of his
reaction to your comments? He seems as perplexed as you say my comments made you. LOL
I accept your explanation for quoting Jeremiah. Those verses are consistent with your opening comment.
Have you noticed that "the good" mentioned in Romans 8:28 is described more clearly in the next verse?: To be conformed to the image of God's Son. All things - good and bad - will, if we let them, be the means through which God makes us more like His Son. This is "the good" to which God is working all things. And so, we know that whatever we face - even death - is an opportunity for God to make us more like Jesus. We don't have to wonder, then, what God is doing in a certain circumstance. Always, at least, we know that He intends the circumstance as a means of conforming us to the image of His Son.
The rest of your post is consistent with the OP, as well as Paul's intent in Romans 8, and find
an ease in forming an agreement among us. As to the horrors we witness in the world, I am
always saddened when people make comments like "if God is love, why does he allow such
terrible things to happen such as rape and incest." Technically, He does not, man does, as
God has given man authority on earth. Psalm 115:16. My explanation to those who question
God in these matters is to reveal what man is capable of, to stand in clear distinction to what
God has planned from the beginning.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
Let us continue on, encouraging one another in anticipation and joyfulness.
With patience toward one another, we all benefit, not only in improving
our comprehension, but also our ability to express our testimony. I hope
to continue to improve my communication skills in this forum, and we will
continue to build up one another as the Father allows.
Thank you for the grace I find in your responses, and I acknowledge your
consistent efforts to contribute to the forum, as honorable.
Work in progress?
James
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
But, God can bring a good end out of rape which, in the case of Romans 8:28-29, is growth toward greater Christ-likeness.
This is how I understood his comment. Not that rape is good, but that God finds a way to
turn things into good. For many, a horrible experience in life leaves them distant and cold
toward God. If we believe the topic verse of Romans 8:28, we find believers coming through
those experiences to serve others. That's a good thing.
2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them
which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
This is a foul and cruel way of thinking, making God into a monster.
I do not see any suggestion that we should be thankful. But if we are encouraged by the
scriptures, we understand that we can remain joyful through the hardships.
James 1:
2
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.
1 Peter 4:19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls
to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

This is a horrible and dangerous way of thinking that has driven people far from God. Be careful, young man, what you are urging others to think!
Wow! Once again, I am not seeing that in his statements or thinking. He clearly states that
God can find ways to turn experiences into good, which you seem to agree. I see no promotion
of any wicked act to the status of good. Some people remain victims for life. Christians can
remain more than conquerors in Christ. That's a good thing.
Yes, God is in ultimate control of everything. But this doesn't mean God is meticulously controlling everything.
Agreed!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
All sincere thanks for you taking the time to elaborate on this topic. I feel like we are giving
thorough consideration to the scriptures, whereby we can be blessed in discussion.
If I question motives, it is only to better understand the thinking behind the scriptures being quoted, and how we align our thinking. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
I apologize for going too in depth in searching out what we were all saying for agreement sake.
Basically, I applied to you what I felt you were doing to @Mclachlan.

Well, I don't recall ever assigning motives to Mclachlan's remarks. Anyway, I'm always up for a closer look at God's word.

You say that from experience many have twisted ideas about human horrors and God's plan.
I agree, but I do not see those notions being expressed in the OP.

Not explicitly expressed in any overt way, perhaps, but certainly implied, as I explained.

In short, I saw your response as broadening the topic out of curiosity, as you have said, to
search out his understanding, in order to correct any misconceptions that you are familiar
with by your experiences.

Well, my response wasn't just idle curiosity, as I've explained. But his statements did strongly resemble those of a Reformed/Calvinist perspective which espouses a meticulous-divine-ordination-of-all-events view.

I didn't see those misconceptions in the OP. You introduced them,
to correct them, as necessary. Looking at his responses to your post, he seems a bit taken
aback by your Hmmm...comment, and clearly so was I.

Interesting. We all see things through our own personal lenses. I didn't get the sense that he was taken aback at all...

I am 65, and a lifelong Christian,
and if your concern was for his understanding, you should see that bringing murder and
rape into the discussion was beyond the scope of his intent.

Well, I don't think so. My purpose wasn't to focus on these things but to use them to draw attention to the extremity of the view that God plans everything and turns evil into good.

What do you think of his
reaction to your comments? He seems as perplexed as you say my comments made you. LOL

I think he may not have come upon the response I offered before. I could be wrong. I certainly didn't get the impression he was perplexed by what I wrote, though.

Sometimes, people simply repeat what they've been taught, without critical evaluation of the teaching. And when someone points out that there might be a problem, it can be a bit confusing and disconcerting. I had this happen to me many times - especially when I was younger and merely parroting beliefs I didn't fully understand. This may not be the case, though, with Mclachlan. I haven't read enough of his stuff to be able to say.

As to the horrors we witness in the world, I am
always saddened when people make comments like "if God is love, why does he allow such
terrible things to happen such as rape and incest." Technically, He does not, man does, as
God has given man authority on earth. Psalm 115:16. My explanation to those who question
God in these matters is to reveal what man is capable of, to stand in clear distinction to what
God has planned from the beginning.

:ok:

With patience toward one another, we all benefit, not only in improving
our comprehension, but also our ability to express our testimony. I hope
to continue to improve my communication skills in this forum, and we will
continue to build up one another as the Father allows.
Thank you for the grace I find in your responses, and I acknowledge your
consistent efforts to contribute to the forum, as honorable.
Work in progress?

Definitely a work in progress. God's a lot of work to do on me yet!

This is how I understood his comment. Not that rape is good, but that God finds a way to turn things into good.

See, I really don't like this way of phrasing things. In my experience, it has led to some very awful statements by Christians, who urge those who are in terrible grief and pain to see the evil that has befallen them, not as evil, but as something good that they ought to cheer about. Essentially, they expect the suffering Christian to praise God, not for the good He may bring out of their suffering, but for the suffering itself, as though suffering is itself good! The result of this thinking is an appalling lack of empathy and a cruel form of comfort that harms rather helps, akin to saying to the man who has just had his arm lopped off in a car accident to rejoice in his amputation and to think of it as a good thing, not merely the tragic, painful loss of a limb. Yikes!

I doubt very much that Mclachlan had anything like this in his mind as he wrote his OP, but the implication of his words lends itself to such cold, hurtful comfort.

If we believe the topic verse of Romans 8:28, we find believers coming through
those experiences to serve others. That's a good thing.

Ideally, yes.

I do not see any suggestion that we should be thankful. But if we are encouraged by the
scriptures, we understand that we can remain joyful through the hardships.
James 1:
2
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.
1 Peter 4:19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls
to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

In these verses you've hit on the reasons why we can be joyful in the midst of hardship, reasons that don't rework suffering into something other than it is but attach suffering to a higher, divine good to come.

Wow! Once again, I am not seeing that in his statements or thinking. He clearly states that
God can find ways to turn experiences into good, which you seem to agree.

Not bad into good; good out of bad. The difference, as I've tried to explain, is very important.

I see no promotion
of any wicked act to the status of good.

But others do, unfortunately.

Christians can
remain more than conquerors in Christ. That's a good thing.

Amen!
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,349
813
Califormia
✟131,250.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
For we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Everything you are experiencing at the moment is according to God's plan, for good, for His glory.
That is not the end of the story - what if you lose your first love? Paul also said the following earlier in the chapter.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Paul did not view walking according to the Spirit as something to be assumed - as at high priority he had to consciously keep his own fleshly appetites under subjection.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.​

The only promise I can find in the NT concerning never falling away involves continually growing in the Lord. If there was an easier way to have that confidence, it would be expressly stated and 2 Peter 2:10 would not have significance.

2 Peter 1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Mclachlan
Upvote 0