Can we know (yet)?

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
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I started about why there is so much discord about Revelation.
Genesis 3:3
  1. But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    Genesis 3:4
  2. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die
Satan has continued to change the word of GOD. From the beginning to the end that is what he does.

all you have to do is look at the deceit (discord) he has spread regarding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, there is only one true interpretation of the prophecies yet satan has created many to lead people away from the truth of GOD
 
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Genesis 3:3
  1. But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    Genesis 3:4
  2. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die
Satan has continued to change the word of GOD. From the beginning to the end that is what he does.

all you have to do is look at the deceit (discord) he has spread regarding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, there is only one true interpretation of the prophecies yet satan has created many to lead people away from the truth of GOD
Yes, but why is there no discord amongst Christians about the meaning of Isaiah 53?
At least not since after the crucifiction.
 
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d taylor

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Daniel 9:27 KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week/years he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This has already been fulfilled as it is the last week of the 70 week/year prophecy which is the first 70 weeks/years of the 2300 year prophecy. Jesus was crucified 3.5 years ( in the midst of the week) from his baptism by John, his death was that of the sacrificial lamb ( he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease) for all man kinds sin, thus the sacrificial ceremony of the temple was done away with as a foreshadow for the forgiveness of sin by faith and replaced with the blood of Jesus.
Romans 3:24 KJV
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 6:23 KJV
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luke 21:34-36 KJV

Jesus warned His disciples over and over again to watch and pray that they would not be deceived. The last days of earth’s history will be treacherous. Our only safety is in knowing Jesus and His Word intimately. Jesus’ warning is for us (is being fulfilled as we speak)

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

(Luke 21: 34-36).KJV
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Matthew 24 KJV
(being fulfilled as we speak)

The Scripture gives many signs that will tell us when the return of Christ is near. These signs are prevalent in our world today:

• An increase in knowledge (Daniel 12:4).
• An increase in demonic activity (Revelation 16:13-14, 1 Timothy 4:1-7)
• An increase in lawlessness (2 Timothy 3:1-7)
• Departure from the faith (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
• Rise of false teachings such as evolution (2 Peter 3:3-7)
• Rise of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-24)
• Increase in traffic and modern transportation (Nahum 2:4)
• Poverty and economic instability (James 5:3-4)

Matthew 7:13-15 King James Version
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

According to to the word of GOD most of Human kind will be lost to the deceit of satan from Eden to the close of probation

I would have won a million dollars betting that this was going to be your reply, the, it has already happened biblical misinformation lie.
 
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AdB

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I would have won a million dollars betting that this was going to be your reply, the, it has already happened lie.
Yes and no, it might be the prophesy is foretelling BOTH the events around Jerusalems destruction AND some future event.

According to my proposal it would be somewhat clear regarding the 70 AD event, while still having some unclear phrases. If these phrases were put there like that by God's guidance because they will make full sense only once the future events have happend, then them still being somewhat unclear would be an indication that there's more to the text than only the 70 AD event...
 
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d taylor

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Yes and no, it might be the prophesy is foretelling BOTH the events around Jerusalems destruction AND some future event.

According to my proposal it would be somewhat clear regarding the 70 AD event, while still having some unclear phrases. If these phrases were put there like that by God's guidance because they will make full sense only once the future events have happend, then them still being somewhat unclear would be an indication that there's more to the text than only the 70 AD event...

70 AD is connected to Matthew 12, not future events
 
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d taylor

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Even for the Olivine Discourse it may be regarding both 70AD aswel to some future event.

If you are speaking of double fulfillment, i do not believe prophecy works that way. I do however believe The Bible works in double reference.
 
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If you are speaking of double fulfillment, i do not believe prophecy works that way. I do however believe The Bible works in double reference.
Yes, I am convinced that every scripture has a spiritual application next to ant practical application.
However I'm in the middle about a prophesy having a double fulfilment. There are some examples about prophesies clearly directed at certain people, but undoubtly also speaking about for example satan's fate...
 
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d taylor

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Yes, I am convinced that every scripture has a spiritual application next to ant practical application.
However I'm in the middle about a prophesy having a double fulfilment. There are some examples about prophesies clearly directed at certain people, but undoubtly also speaking about for example satan's fate...
Daniel 11 in verse 40 (at the time of the end) shows that he moves from actually speaking about a current king of the north but a future king of the north. But this actually begins at verse 36. So it can be seen that Daniels king of the north is the same person as Paul's man of sin 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4
 
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eleos1954

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You're trying to say that the understanding is just fine, but it isn't. You didn't answer my question.


I must say that the chart that you provided is looking much better than what I've seen so far, I'll have a closer look at that once I have time for that.

You're trying to say that the understanding is just fine, but it isn't. You didn't answer my question.

no ... that is not what I'm saying .... what I'm saying is that is why there are so many interpretations of the book of Revelation. There are some fundamental beliefs and what one believes (not necessarily all true) in those leads them down a path to how one interprets the book of revelation.

State of the dead is one of them .... some teach when one dies earthly death their "soul" goes to either "hell" (a burning place that continues throughout eternity) or heaven .... His Word does not teach this. None are immortal in any way until He returns.

Also, some believe of the nation Israel that the physical temple will be rebuilt and Jesus will rule on earth for a period of time (varies) .... His word does not teach this. All covenants are fulfilled in Christ, including the covenant made with Abraham.

If the fundamental beliefs are in error then the interpretation of the book of Revelation will be in error.
 
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AdB

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no ... that is not what I'm saying .... what I'm saying is that is why there are so many interpretations of the book of Revelation. There are some fundamental beliefs and what one believes (not necessarily all true) in those leads them down a path to how one interprets the book of revelation.

State of the dead is one of them .... some teach when one dies earthly death their "soul" goes to either "hell" (a burning place that continues throughout eternity) or heaven .... His Word does not teach this. None are immortal in any way until He returns.

Also, some believe of the nation Israel that the physical temple will be rebuilt and Jesus will rule on earth for a period of time (varies) .... His word does not teach this. All covenants are fulfilled in Christ, including the covenant made with Abraham.

If the fundamental beliefs are in error then the interpretation of the book of Revelation will be in error.
But I'm asking you about why there is no discord about Isaiah 53
 
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Because all agree all of it is true. There isn't discord about everything.
Exactly! So why is it that there is no discord about for example the Messianic prophesies like Isaiah 53, but there is discord on the so called end time prophesies?
 
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Marilyn C

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Just a thought...

If we look at historically fulfilled prophesies it seems that many of these prophesies could not be understood clearly before the time of the actual fulfilment. Yet when that time came it became overwhelmingly clear what the prophesy was about. There are of course prophesies where the actual meaning is quite literally spelled out, so those are outside the scope of this proposition. But for the "non explained" I get the impression that God keeps these in a haze on purpose to have everyone standing in awe once the true meaning of the prophesy is revealed.

Hi AdB,

I believe that the Lord Jesus, the Head of His Body reveals His purposes by His Holy Spirit as He said.

`when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into all truth...` (John 16: 13)

Thus we already have much understanding of the prophetic word and actually see many being unfolded right before our eyes today.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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That

Exactly! So why is it that there is no discord about for example the Messianic prophesies like Isaiah 53, but there is discord on the so called end time prophesies?

Because we are being guided into all truth and that is the last truth(s) to be clarified. (John 16: 13)
 
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eclipsenow

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The Scripture gives many signs that will tell us when the return of Christ is near. These signs are prevalent in our world today:

• An increase in knowledge (Daniel 12:4).
• An increase in demonic activity (Revelation 16:13-14, 1 Timothy 4:1-7)
• An increase in lawlessness (2 Timothy 3:1-7)
• Departure from the faith (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
• Rise of false teachings such as evolution (2 Peter 3:3-7)
• Rise of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-24)
• Increase in traffic and modern transportation (Nahum 2:4)
• Poverty and economic instability (James 5:3-4)

I am sympathetic to what you say about Daniel's 70 weeks being fulfilled in Jesus - although Daniel's weeks are notoriously difficult and many historical Amils see it as being Antiochus and Jesus comparing the fall of the temple in AD70 BACK to Antiochus.

But why go and wreck this historic position by then trying to force scripture to say Jesus will return soon? He COULD return tonight, or in 5 seconds, or in 50,000 years. We just don't know.

Also, why wreck your position with such poor reading of Old Testament texts? Nahum is simply NOT about modern cars!

Nineveh to Fall
2 An attacker advances against you, Nineveh.
Guard the fortress,
watch the road,
brace yourselves,
marshal all your strength!

2 The Lord will restore the splendor of Jacob
like the splendor of Israel,
though destroyers have laid them waste
and have ruined their vines.

3 The shields of the soldiers are red;
the warriors are clad in scarlet.
The metal on the chariots flashes
on the day they are made ready;
the spears of juniper are brandished.
4 The chariots storm through the streets,
rushing back and forth through the squares.
They look like flaming torches;
they dart about like lightning.​

Seriously, the way people just RIP Old Testament verses out of context and cannot do basic hermeneutics really worries me. Please watch this. Nahum isn't about predicting what will happen in a specific period of history (other than the fall of Nineveh) but uses the fall of Assyria as a 'type' to point to how all God's enemies will one day be defeated. Yes, that's ambiguous, and unsatisfying if you come at God's word with questions all about us and our age and when. But as Jesus said, he will be like a thief in the night. Why can't we just trust him on that, and leave it at that?

 
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Matt5

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Just a thought...

If we look at historically fulfilled prophesies it seems that many of these prophesies could not be understood clearly before the time of the actual fulfilment. Yet when that time came it became overwhelmingly clear what the prophesy was about. There are of course prophesies where the actual meaning is quite literally spelled out, so those are outside the scope of this proposition. But for the "non explained" I get the impression that God keeps these in a haze on purpose to have everyone standing in awe once the true meaning of the prophesy is revealed.

In Acts 8:26-39 we read about the Ethiopian eunuch who was diligently reading Isaiah 53:1-8 bit he didn't have a clue what it was about. But once Philip told him about the crucifiction of Jesus, it all became so clear, that the eunuch asked to be baptised right there on the spot!

Could this also be the case with Revelation?
So if the described events are yet to happen, that we will never be able to have a clear understanding about it?
And on the other hand, if the described events have already happened, or are happening as we speak, that it should be overwhelmingly clear which historical events are being described?

I do believe that even if the events are yet to happen that we should be studying the texts, just like the Ethiopian eunuch did with Isaiah 53, but we will simply never be able to really know what it will turn out to be.

Does my proposition hold or are there cases where a prophesy was fully clear long before it came to pass? Of course prophesies where the actual meaning is literally spelled out like many of Daniel's prophesies don't count

Also a question for Amils, if the events in Revelation are happening right now, why are the historical events that are attributed to these events so poorly aligning?

The events of Revelation are happening before your eyes. In order to understand that one needs to ask questions:

1. What does the return of Jesus mean?
2. What is a seal?

What if the return of Jesus is not really about the return of Jesus. What if verses about his return are really about the events, including nuclear wars, that will shortly precede his actual return?

What if the seals in Revelation describe the events that shortly precede the return of Jesus? What if they open all along the entire end-time period of around 100 years? What if a seal is a shock, like nuclear war or big attack?

If you look you can see that 9/11 looks a lot like seal #2. If you read the news then you can see that nuclear war between America, China and/or Russia is approaching. This looks a lot like seal #4.

If a seal is a shock, like nuclear war or 9/11, then what happened to seal #1?

seal #1: America drops the atomic bomb on Japan and begins the nuclear age.
seal #2: 9/11.
seal #3: Isaiah 17 - Israel nukes its neighbors.
seal #4: Isaiah 18 - America gets nuked by Russia and China. Retaliation for seal #3.

Note: Isaiah 17 appears to be approaching.

What color is a dead white horse?

Let's say you don't believe my prophecy interpretations. It doesn't change anything if you read the news.
 
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