is Vatican 2 orthodox???

dóxatotheó said:

Before Holy Baptism, grace encourages the soul toward good from the outside, while Satan lurks in its depths, trying to block all the intellect’s ways of approach to the Divine. But from the moment we are reborn through baptism, the demon is outside, grace within. Thus, whereas before Baptism error ruled the soul, after Baptism Truth rules it.

“On Spiritual Knowledge,” 76, in The Philokalia I, p. 279

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So it comes down to who is baptized validly. Would you say a Catholic is baptized validly? Would you say that any Protestants are baptized validly? I think the standard Orthodox response is that Catholic sacraments are nothing. And that Protestant baptism is also nothing. Am I correct? Are there any exceptions to that?

dóxatotheó said:

the councils were influenced by the emperor because Councils that are called "Ecumenical" are called so because of Imperial Convocation. However, councils that are authoritative are authoritative because the Church has determined them to be so - there are councils not called "Ecumenical" that are authoritative. I think people assume "Ecumenical" means "universally authoritative," when it doesn't. It happens that the councils we call Ecumenical are indeed "universally authoritative."

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We may be defining ecumenical differently.

So let's stick with "universally authoritative." What makes a council universally authoritative according to the Orthodox?

chevyontheriver said:

So it comes down to who is baptized validly. Would you say a Catholic is baptized validly? Would you say that any Protestants are baptized validly? I think the standard Orthodox response is that Catholic sacraments are nothing. And that Protestant baptism is also nothing. Am I correct? Are there any exceptions to that?

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That was my next question

chevyontheriver said:

So it comes down to who is baptized validly. Would you say a Catholic is baptized validly? Would you say that any Protestants are baptized validly? I think the standard Orthodox response is that Catholic sacraments are nothing. And that Protestant baptism is also nothing. Am I correct? Are there any exceptions to that?

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I think this discussion was supposed to be between sedevacantist claims and Catholicism, not Orthodox vs. Catholic

But anyway, for what is worth I don't think Baptism is seen as "nothing"...

The main exception being that in most jurisdictions, those who have been baptized in water and very specifically "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" in a Church that affirms the Holy Trinity do not get re-baptized.

I never really grasped the entire notion to be honest. But the underlying assumption is that the Baptism was valid. I am cradle and I've never heard of this before moving to the US...

My wife converted from a denomination that refers to itself as Christian, but their definition of the persons of the Holy Trinity and their "baptism" is profoundly different so she needed to be baptized. I personally know former Catholics who were received with Chrismation alone.

On the other hand, we even recognize emergency Baptism done by a lay person as well... For instance, if a baby appears to be in danger of dying, the practice is for anyone (if at all possible, not one of the parents) to baptize the baby. If the baby ultimately survives, then the full baptismal service is done, but without submerging in water and the baptismal formula.

Andrei D said:

I think this discussion was supposed to be between sedevacantist claims and Catholicism, not Orthodox vs. Catholic

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It was, but when I asked about baptism I unearthed the belief of so many Orthodox that they don't accept Catholic baptism. So I asked why someone who doesn't accept the baptism of Catholics would be worried about Catholic opinion about the salvation of Protestants.

But anyway, for what is worth I don't think Baptism is seen as "nothing"...

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is yours the majority or minority position within Orthodoxy? Better yet is it an official position or not? What is the official position?

The main exception being that in most jurisdictions, those who have been baptized in water and very specifically "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" in a Church that affirms the Holy Trinity do not get re-baptized.

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What brand of Orthodoxy do you belong to? Is that position shared among the other Orthodox?

I never really grasped the entire notion to be honest. But the underlying assumption is that the Baptism was valid. I am cradle and I've never heard of this before moving to the US...

My wife converted from a denomination that refers to itself as Christian, but their definition of the persons of the Holy Trinity and their "baptism" is profoundly different so she needed to be baptized. I personally know former Catholics who were received with Chrismation alone.

On the other hand, we even recognize emergency Baptism done by a lay person as well... For instance, if a baby appears to be in danger of dying, the practice is for anyone (if at all possible, not one of the parents) to baptize the baby. If the baby ultimately survives, then the full baptismal service is done, but without submerging in water and the baptismal formula.

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I have heard from Orthodox that Catholic sacraments are nothing. Then other Orthodox like you that they are something. At least Catholics can accept all of the Orthodox sacraments as valid. But you guys confuse me. And it confuses me that the hard line anti-Catholic folks who reject Catholic baptism should even care what we think about anything else.

dóxatotheó said:

The Process of Receiving Non-Orthodox Persons Into the Orthodox Church | All Saints Greek Orthodox Church

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Is this true of just this one Orthodox church or of every Orthodox church? I suspect it is not the latter.

dóxatotheó said:

there are different views that arent really what are patriarch has stated many Orthodoxs hate ecumenism so much that they would condemn all non-orthodox which isn't what is taught in our church.

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So you have this big inter-Orthodox problem of disagreeing among yourselves about whether Catholics can be saved. Am I right? Fix that and get back to me. In the mean time all Catholics accept all the sacraments of the Orthodox. It's not even an issue.

dóxatotheó said:

the pope is ratifying as a member of the synod and anything he proposes is also subject to the council’s ratification. Perfect example in this quotation.
It is obvious […] that synods are called universal and general when more bishops than in some of the above-mentioned synods meet, following the command of the Apostolic See and convocation by the emperor.”
Hincmar of Reims (d. 882), Opusculum 55 capitulorum PL 126, 361

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So since the Orthodox now have no pope or emperor, no more univerally authoritative councils can occur?

dóxatotheó said:

Greek is high majority.

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I think the Russian Orthodox would strongly disagree with that.

dóxatotheó said:

talking about high majority of Greek Orthodoxs believe that

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So is it majority rule?

dóxatotheó said:

Completely false
All the Autocephalous Leaders meeting under one roof may constitute an Authoritative meeting, or even a Universally Authoritative Meeting, but I don't know if it can or ever will be called "Ecumenical." The Autocephalous leaders have met since the 8th Ecumenical Council numerous times, in fact. Look up the Endemousa Synods, If I may ask? We dont need a Pope, Church always been subsisting without it, but we are definitely diverting from OP.

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Disingenuous as it is.

dóxatotheó said:

Completely false
All the Autocephalous Leaders meeting under one roof may constitute an Authoritative meeting, or even a Universally Authoritative Meeting, but I don't know if it can or ever will be called "Ecumenical." The Autocephalous leaders have met since the 8th Ecumenical Council numerous times, in fact. Look up the Endemousa Synods, If I may ask? We dont need a Pope, Church always been subsisting without it, but we are definitely diverting from OP.

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Are the Endemousa synods considered to be universally authoritative?