Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

sovereigngrace said:

1. Where is the second coming in Zechariah 14?

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LOL. You have to be joking with this question. I guess you question as to where in Jude 1:14-15 there is a 2nd coming involved there as well?

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

This is clearly meaning the 2nd coming and that this--- Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints---is saying the same thing Zechariah 14:5 is saying---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

How many times do you think He does things like that, comes and all of His saints with Him? Are you going to argue that coming with ten thousands of His saints can't mean the same thing as coming with all of His saints?

Just because Jude 1:14 mentions Enoch and not Zechariah as well, and that Zechariah doesn't mention Enoch, this doesn't mean Zechariah wasn't applying the same prophecy Jude is. There is such a thing as one prophet repeating what another prophet had said.

Douggg said:

Revelation 20 is the continuation of Revelation 19. Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 are parallel accounts. All of the end times prophecies are tied together.

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You meant to say that you believe Revelation 19-20 and Zechariah 14 are parallel accounts, right?

Where are the beast and false prophet mentioned in Zechariah 14 and where does it say they are cast into the lake of fire?

Where is a resurrection of "matryred tribulation saints" described in Zechariah 14?

Where is the binding of Satan described in Zechariah 14?

Where is Satan's little season described in Zechariah 14?

Where does Revelation 20 describe anything similar to people being "stricken by the Lord with great panic" at which point they "seize each other by the hand and attack one another" (Zech 14:13)?

Where does Revelation 20 say anything about anyone being punished during the thousand years for any reason, including not going up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord and keep the feast of tabernacles?

You say all of the end times prophecies are tied together.

With that in mind, please tell me when you believe 2 Peter 3:10-13 will happen in relation to Zechariah 14:10-11.

Zechariah 14:10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Bob_1000 said:

If God's people aren't ruling with Christ in the millennium then who is?

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Nobody! The thousand years is "symbolic", just as it is in these two of other verses that I posted earlier...



So, agree that one generation is about 40 years. Therefore, if taken literally, 40 x 1,000 = 40,000 years. That means that we have 37,979 years to discuss when the general resurrection at the end of the ages occurs.

Now can we take 1,000 years in Revelations as being symbolic? Revelations says "a thousand years." That is a time frame that indicates "ages." Revelation 20, Deuteronomy and 1 Chronicles indicate "years." Same thing! So how is it that Revelations has to be "literal" while Deuteronomy and 1 Chronicles clearly has to be taken "symbolically"?

claninja said:

interesting perspective. But didn’t Christ receive the kingdom when he ascended to God?

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Just like the new covenant, the kingdom of heaven was promised to the house of Israel and Judah.

Israel the nation needed to accept Jesus as the promised king, stated in 2 Samuel 7, before the kingdom could begin.

They never did, and after they stoned Stephen, the nation has fallen. Romans 11:11

Spiritual Jew said:

You say all of the end times prophecies are tied together.

With that in mind, please tell me when you believe 2 Peter 3:10-13 will happen in relation to Zechariah 14:10-11.

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Just as Ezekiel 39 provides the infallible timeline framework for the 7 year 70th week of end times events,

So too does Revelation 20 provide the infallible timeline framework for the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this earth, sitting on David's throne, in Jerusalem, Israel. The 1000 years as a day is to the Lord.

Zechariah 14:10-11, the raising up of the land to a high plateau, will be the mountain of the Lord (Isaiah 11:9), with Jesus sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem. Which in Zechariah 14:16, the nations will have to go up to worship the Lord of hosts, Jesus.

After the thousand years expire, Satan is loosed from prison and will deceive the nations one last time.
Which the nations, including the former Gog/Magog nations, will attempt to come up, to ascend that plateau, against Jerusalem, Israel, and God will rain fire down on them destroying them.

Which before God's face, in Revelation 20:11, the present heaven and earth flee away, the destruction thereof in 2Peter3:10.

Which to the fact that the earth and works therein will be destroyed, there is a parallel message in Matthew 6:19-21, by Jesus to store up treasures in heaven. Do you believe in that priority?

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Douggg said:

Zechariah 14:10-11, the raising up of the land to a high plateau, will be the mountain of the Lord (Isaiah 11:9), with Jesus sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem. Which in Zechariah 14:16, the nations will have to go up to worship the Lord of hosts, Jesus.

After the thousand years expire, Satan is loosed from prison and will deceive the nations one last time.
Which the nations, including the former Gog/Magog nations, will attempt to come up, to ascend that plateau, against Jerusalem, Israel, and God will rain fire down on them destroying in them.

Which before God's face, in Revelation 20:11, the present heaven and earth flee away, the destruction thereof in 2Peter3:10.

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I don't see how what you said here addresses what it says in Zechariah 14:10-11. That passage says there that "there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited".

How can 2 Peter 3:10-12, which describes the utter destruction of the heavens and the earth, occur AFTER Zechariah 14:10-11 when Zechariah 14:10-11 says "there will no more utter destruction" after the time that Zechariah 14:10-11 is talking about? Please specifically address this question.

Douggg said:

Which before God's face, in Revelation 20:11, the present heaven and earth flee away, the destruction thereof in 2Peter3:10.

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Why are you not an Amil if you are connecting 2 Peter 3:10 with that of Revelation 20:11?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Why would the DOTL come like a thief in the night in relation to the GWTJ, especially if it's supposed to come like a thief in the night a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming? Even per Amil it doesn't make sense to connect the DOTL as coming as a thief in the night in relation to when the GWTJ is meaning. The GWTJ does not come like a thief in the night.

satan is already in the LOF when the GWTJ occurs.Should we then conclude that the DOTL comes like a thief in the night after satan has been cast into the LOF? Revelation 20 has him already cast into the LOF when the GWTJ begins. he is not even present at the GWTJ. One can't find one single mention of him anywhere in Revelation 20:11-15. That judgment involves humans that are raised from the dead. satan is not human nor does he need to be raised from the dead.


Chronologically then, one can't connect 2 Peter 3:10 with the time of the GWTJ, because to do so would mean that the DOTL comes like a thief in the night after satan has already been cast into the LOF.

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't see how what you said here addresses what it says in Zechariah 14:10-11. That passage says there that "there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited".

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Zechariah 14:10-11 says that the land will be raised up, and that there will be no more utter destruction of Jerusalem, implying what had happened in the past. The land raised up creates the mountain of God, God's holy mountain in Isaiah 11:9. Isaiah 11 describes life during the messianic reign,

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Which universal knowledge of Jesus as LORD during that time is in Zechariah 14: 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

sovereigngrace said:

You keep going back to Genesis, which is not wise, as it was written in Hebrews, and functioned under different rules.

For the record: ancient Greek world view is also quite distant from a ancient Hebrew world view.

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Why does Matthew think Jesus cleanses the temple at the end of his ministry and John thinks it was at the beginning? Trying and order Revelation? I'm saying there's more to it then they got the order wrong and ordering can be used to add emphasis or build a supporting goal. This sort of fluidization of events are more commonly practiced with ancient thinking (even Greek) but is less accepted in modern western thinking. This is because if the goal is worthy then it is better to shape the events to better show that goal.

Do you want a modern western example? Try young Washington's account of cutting down a cherry tree. The goal of the account is to show young Washington was honest to such a point his honesty is praised over his poor behaviour (of cutting down the tree) yet ironically the event actually never happened and was made up yet every American knows the story well and through anecdotes like that have developed a sense that honesty above all is the best virture. This is how western thinking has become fact driven.

In ancient thinking it's not that honesty wasn't valued it's just wasn't ranked the same as modern western thinking so events are embellished, demephasised, reordered, skipped, etc... because they are not fact driven in these cases but goal driven. So if the goal is worthy the details are used to support that goal. The same thing of course still happens today but we rank the values differently and ancients were more honor driven/goal driven and if we approach ancient texts like they are fact driven without considering how they rank values we will probably miss the point.

sovereigngrace said:

I did not ask you to give me your misinterpretation of Ezekiel 37, 39, Psalms 2, Isaiah 9, Deuteronomy 30, Daniel 8, 11, Acts 1 and Revelation 19:21. I asked you to do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20. You add all the others because there is zero correlation between the 2, and you know it. That is why you sidestepped my core question. I will ask a few more questions to try and get you to address this.

1. Where is the second coming in Zechariah 14?
2. Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
3. Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
4. Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
5. Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
6. Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
7. Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
8. Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

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Where in Zechariah 14 is the church?

Bob_1000 said:

Do you not consider them Gods people?

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Do you consider Abraham a Christian?

Spiritual Jew said:

Can you tell me why Paul didn't reference a resurrection of martyred tribulation saints in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 when he gave the order of bodily resurrections?

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Paul is pre-trib, not post trib. If Paul were post trib, he would have included them.

Paul is pre-mil because Christ must reign (1000 years per John) to hand the Kingdom back to the Father.

DavidPT said:

Why would the DOTL come like a thief in the night in relation to the GWTJ, especially if it's supposed to come like a thief in the night a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming?

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It is a matter of perspective. God's perspective vs man's perspective.

The Day of the Lord from man's perspective will begin like a thief in the night when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, the transgression of desolation (on my chart below).

A little more than half of the 7 years later, Jesus returns and the thousand years reign on this present earth begins.

From God's perspective, that thousand years is as a day. So that same event regarding the Antichrist, until the end of the thousand years is all the same day - beginning like a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord lasts for eternity. Relative to the 7 days 7000 years, from creation to the destruction of this current heaven and earth - the last 1000 years of this present heaven and earth is God's seventh day of rest for mankind from war, destruction, and abusive governments - before He creates a new heaven, a new earth, a new Jerusalem, following the Great White Throne Judgment.

Peter's message was to be careful how you live because eternity lasts forever, and can begin suddenly and quickly, and there is a day appointed for everything in this world and the works therein will be destroyed.

DamianWarS said:

They certainly carried an ancient mindset that is very distant from modern Western thought. But even still, written/thought in Greek or not, the prophetic may default into Hebraic understanding and certainly from a Jewish perspective. I'm not necessarily arguing the point of the op, I'm saying tense alone is too one dimensional way of approaching it and it's more complex then that and certainly seems to be superimposing a modern way of thinking over an ancient. We can't just say ancient Greek is western in thinking and so am I so we must think the same. This all doesn't address the fact that God is outside of time so his referent of time doesn't have to agree with ours.

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I agree with you about the difference in thought. I think that the RCC shaped western thought away from the eastern way of thinking, to allow for today's modern western thought, as a deception of Satan. I am still not sure that the NT leans towards the eastern thought process. I do not see that as a bad thing either.

Timtofly said:

Do you consider Abraham a Christian?

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Of course Abraham was a Christian. Anybody who follows Christ whether looking forward to his coming or looking back at his coming are Christians. Are you one of those who think Christianity started at Pentecost?

Douggg said:

It is a matter of perspective. God's perspective vs man's perspective.

The Day of the Lord from man's perspective will begin like a thief in the night when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, the transgression of desolation (on my chart below).

A little more than half of the 7 years later, Jesus returns and the thousand years reign on this present earth begins.

From God's perspective, that thousand years is as a day. So that same event regarding the Antichrist, until the end of the thousand years is all the same day - beginning like a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord lasts for eternity. Relative to the 7 days 7000 years, from creation to the destruction of this current heaven and earth - the last 1000 years of this present heaven and earth is God's seventh day of rest for mankind from war, destruction, and abusive governments - before He creates a new heaven, a new earth, a new Jerusalem, following the Great White Throne Judgment.

Peter's message was to be careful how you live because eternity lasts forever, and can begin suddenly and quickly, and there is a day appointed for everything in this world and the works therein will be destroyed.





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What passage or passages tell us that the DOTL is eternal?

DavidPT said:

What passage or passages tell us that the DOTL is eternal?

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There is no statement of "after the Day of the Lord is over" or similar wording in the bible.

ShineyDays2 said:

So, agree that one generation is about 40 years. Therefore, if taken literally, 40 x 1,000 = 40,000 years. That means that we have 37,979 years to discuss when the general resurrection at the end of the ages occurs.

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No. Humans can have offspring at 13-16. Why wait 40 years to get married? No 40 year old virgins.

Bob_1000 said:

Of course Abraham was a Christian. Anybody who follows Christ whether looking forward to his coming or looking back at his coming are Christians. Are you one of those who think Christianity started at Pentecost?

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So why does it seem improbable that some on earth are not fully sons of God? God has some people at different stages of being in that image. Saying "of God" does not necessarily define a full picture.