Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching. That is because the tenses expose Premil.

Jesus is reigning now

For example, Scripture shows that Jesus is reigning now over creation, His people and all His enemies. It is shown to be in the present ongoing tense. Most Premillennialists reject this as it messes with their belief-system. However, 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 states: he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. “

Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death, when Jesus comes!

Ephesians 1:20-22 tells us that God hath raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet.”

Here is a very important passage that again confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high, until the occasion when He finally makes them His footstool – namely His one final future all-consummating Coming. God hath now “put all things (not some) under his feet.” And so as to leave no ambiguity to the reader, we find Paul explaining the fact that Christ’s rule includes both the whole natural and spiritual realm: “all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

Hebrews 2:7-8 says, Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 'Thou hast put all things in subjection' (aorist active indicative) under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection (aorist active indicative) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Jesus is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority today as He rules over everything.

Believers are reigning now

Believers are citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21). They are seated in heavenly places. They now rule and reign with Jesus in life and in death.

Ephesians 2:5-6 says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together (aorist, active, indicative), with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together (aorist, active, particle), and made us sit together (aorist, active, indicative), in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Ephesians 1:3 also corroborates, saying, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed (aorist, active, indicative), us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

How are we seated in heavenly places?

Because He is! Remember, we are in Him! We are one with Him! His life is our life. We are hidden in Him. He is our legal head!

· He lived on our behalf.
· He died on our behalf.
· He rose from the dead on our behalf.
· He reigns in heaven tonight on our behalf.

We are spiritually united to Him!

We are currently seated in heavenly places. Of course, that is our spiritual standing. There is a big difference between our standing and our state. Until death we do not assume our thrones. The dead and Christ know it as a state. They have overcome and now reign "in Christ." God also revealed Christ’s current reign to His servant John when He promised the obedient Laodiceans of Asia Minor in. Jesus confirms in Revelation 3:21: “To him that overcometh (present active particle) will I grant to sit (aorist, active infinitive), with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am (aorist active indicative) set down with my Father in his throne.”

Here you have it! This is a current ongoing reality. There is no getting away from this. From this passage we explicitly see:

(1) The battle was the earthly ministry of Christ (including His life, death and resurrection).
(2) The outcome was victory,
(3) His reign is current,
(4) The location is heaven.
(5) The dead in Christ share in Christ's current reign over His enemies. Basically, because He reigns we reign!

Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Our Savior had to overcome. He had to defeat every enemy of righteousness. He had to overcome that which had overcome man -namely sin, Satan, hell and the grave. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfil Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought.

Believers are now able to spiritually reign with Jesus upon high. God’s people on earth were able to do the same. They now exercise divine authority over the dark spiritual realm.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows what we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” – which is reigning in delegated authority will be realized in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s Coming. The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvelous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realized these heavenly privileges.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying,they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth (v. 9).

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice and intercede for the people. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

Revelation 20:4-5 says, And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (aorist active indicative) unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

The dead in Christ are therefore no longer in Abraham’s bosom since the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven reigning with Christ. Basically, as Satan was banished and the elect were welcomed.

Believers are already partaking in the first resurrection

A final example will reinforce my thesis. John is describing the current reality of believers already partaking in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The first
resurrection is shown elsewhere throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5). The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

The duplicity of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used, Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

We see victory over the second death in this age through the new birth. Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It wins us victory over eternal death. It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54 & 58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath (present active indicative) eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

In John 8:51, Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death)If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death (or experience the second death).”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (present active particle) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death).”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.
Tense is relative to a point of reference in time but since God sits out of time his reference may be at any point. Even an argument of chronological events is also limited as hebraic thought can be non linear. Just read the creation account in Genesis 1 then read the creation account in Genesis 2 and see how well they line up or try to order the Gospels chronologically. Western thought follows step logic and is very linear so A to B to C to D etc... Where eastern or Hebraic thought follows more block logic where entire events may be referenced from a block even if those blocks may be ongoing or complete or not even started and this can change how tense is approached coming from outside the block. Blocks side by side may also conflict each other (again see gen 1 and gen 2) Inside the block it's ordered to build the point not the order it happens. For example day 1 there was light but day 4 the sun is created. Light is more important and is ordered first even though the order doesn't make sense. An argument on tense is a very western way of approaching it.
 
Upvote 0

Bob_1000

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2021
613
129
53
Mid-West
✟20,776.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The church is reigning now. That is the fault with Amil. The Millennium is not about the church at all. The Millennium will not prohibit the church reigning in Paradise. Paradise will not be on earth until after the 1000 years, and comes to earth as the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is not on earth during the Millennium iron rod rule of the Messiah the Prince.

Any sacrifices will be on earth by humanity living on earth, not the church still in Paradise.

Can any Amil explain how the church has non stop served in the Heavenly temple that has an alter day and night where obviously humans do not need sacrifices in Paradise?

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

This has been ongoing since the Cross.
If God's people aren't ruling with Christ in the millennium then who is?
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,584.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Tense is relative to a point of reference in time but since God sits out of time his reference may be at any point. Even an argument of chronological events is also limited as hebraic thought can be non linear. Just read the creation account in Genesis 1 then read the creation account in Genesis 2 and see how well they line up or try to order the Gospels chronologically. Western thought follows step logic and is very linear so A to B to C to D etc... Where eastern or Hebraic thought follows more block logic where entire events may be referenced from a block even if those blocks may be ongoing or complete or not even started and this can change how tense is approached coming from outside the block. Blocks side by side may also conflict each other (again see gen 1 and gen 2) Inside the block it's ordered to build the point not the order it happens. For example day 1 there was light but day 4 the sun is created. Light is more important and is ordered first even though the order doesn't make sense. An argument on tense is a very western way of approaching it.

I think you are infusing OT Hebrew thought on the NT Greek and missing the point. The Hebrew only has two tenses; perfect and imperfect. There is no present tense per-se. A perfect tense is actually a completed action and an imperfect tense is an action that is not completed. The thrust of your argument seems to be is to rubbish the reality of the present tense in NT Greek, which is wrong.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,584.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The son is DOES NOT go to a far away country, the Father does. While the Father is off on a his journey he sends his Son and the servants kill the Father's son.

I can't comment on those passages because someone here complained about my posts and I was sent an Email advising me that the speech I was using is not allowed on this forum and I will respect that.

The reference in this parable to the “nobleman” who “went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return” clearly relates to the Lord Jesus Christ and His ascension into heaven. This assumption is supported by the words of Christ at the end of this parable (in verse 27) when He personalizes the story of the ‘certain nobleman’ by saying, “those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,780
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,692.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You are not answering the questions here. You are fixated with Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 yet the objective observer will quickly see that there is obviously absolutely no correlation between them. Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20?
Revelation 20 is a continuation of Revelation 19.

Jesus in Revelation 19 returns to this earth.

In Acts 1, He is said to return in like manner as He departed this earth from the Mt. of Olives (Zechariah 14, splitting it in half).

In Revelation 19:21, He destroys the armies gathered to make war on Him in verse 21. Corresponding to Ezekiel 39:17-20, called the heathen. In Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself is speaking in the tent, having set his glory among the heathen, i.e.among the nations of world. God in Psalms 2, in spite of the nations raging and imagining a vain thing, God will place Jesus (upon David's throne, Isaiah 9:7) as king in Zion (Jerusalem, Israel), Psalms 2:6.

Which Jesus will be their (the Jews, Jerusalem) king forever, Ezekiel 37:24-25, in the land that God gave their forefathers, verse 25. Which Jesus will send angels to gather every last one of them back to land of Israel, after He returns, Matthew 24:31, Ezekiel 39:29, as promised in Deuteronomy 30:4-5

In a parallel account, in Zechariah 14, the nations attack Jerusalem, after being drawn into the middle east by the battles in Daniel 11:40-45. In Daniel 11:45, the beast makes his final stand in Jerusalem, which in Daniel 8:27 dares to stand up against the Prince of princes, Jesus.

In Zechariah 14:4-5, them taken hostage, will escape harm by Jesus standing on the Mt. Olives splitting it in half, creating a valley through which they can flee through.

In Zechariah 14:12, them who come up against Jerusalem, will be destroyed by their flesh dissolving quickly while standing on their feet.

In the parallel account, in Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire. Where in Revelation 20:10, after the thousand years are over, Satan will join them in the lake of fire.

In Revelation 20:2, an angel will come down from heaven, which will be to the temple mount where the abomination of desolation statue image will have been turned to ashes exposing Satan for the kings of the earth and them present that day to see him, Ezekiel 28:17-19, to be a terror no more (Ezekiel 28:19).

The angel binds Satan in chains in Revelation 20:2 and Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit, imprisoned, isolated from the rest of creation.

In Revelation 20:4-6 them martyred during the great tribulation, who will have become Christians after the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians 4:15-18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11, for not taking the mark, nor worshiping the beast, nor his image (the abomination of desolation statue incarnated by Satan) - will be resurrected and reign with Jesus during the 1000 years.

During the 1000 years, there will be peace upon the earth as nations will beat their swords into plowshares, Isaiah 2:4. No more war between the nations.

The lifespan of men will be lengthened, Isaiah 65:20 during the thousand year. And no death at all after the thousand years are over in the new heaven, and new earth, and new Jerusalem, after the Great White Throne judgment.

After the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from prison for a short period to deceive the nations one last time. Which will result in the nations, including the former Gog/Magog nations, en-masse to come up against Jerusalem, Israel, which God destroys them by fire from above.

Satan is then cast into the lake of fire, to join the beast and the false prophet.

Then there is the resurrection for the remainder of the dead, who had not taken part in the resurrection/rapture event, nor the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, for the Great White Throne judgment, which death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14, the second death, which is final.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟125,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
interesting perspective. But didn’t Christ receive the kingdom when he ascended to God?
God will return at the Second Coming.

God left technically when Adam and Cain left the Garden.

God became flesh in the first century. Yet the return is still the end of 6000 years of Adam's flesh and blood. God sent His Son in the first century. Claiming the first century was the end is symbolically called, "jumping the gun".
 
Upvote 0

Bob_1000

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2021
613
129
53
Mid-West
✟20,776.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The kingdom of God will be the ruling kingdom over the nations (other kingdoms). Which Jesus will be ruling with a rod of iron.

It is debatable if and why animal sacrifices of the Mt. Sinai covenant will be done at that time.

There will be persons living in the 1000 years who are not Christians. That after the thousand years end, a great multitude comes up against the camp of the saints - Israel - deceived by Satan one last time to do so. That suggests the number of non-Christians in the world during the millennium, borne into the world during the thousand years, will be very large.
Ezeziel's temple is the millennial temple and there will be animal sacrifices made there and the people doing the sacrifices are God's people. The only question is are those animals representing spiritual sacrifices or.... well I'm not allowed to say what else it could be on this forum.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,584.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 20 is a continuation of Revelation 19.

Jesus in Revelation 19 returns to this earth.

In Acts 1, he is said to return in like manner as he departed this earth from the Mt. of Olives (Zechariah 14, splitting it in half).

In Revelation 19:21, He destroys the armies gathered to make war on Him in verse 21. Corresponding to Ezekiel 39:17-20, called the heathen. In Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself is speaking in the tent, having set his glory among the heathen, i.e.among the nations of world. God in Psalms 2, in spite of the nations raging and imagining a vain thing, God will place Jesus (upon David's throne, Isaiah 9:7) as king in Zion (Jerusalem, Israel), Psalms 2:6.

Which Jesus will be their (the Jews, Jerusalem) king forever, Ezekiel 37:24-25, in the land that God gave their forefathers, verse 25. Which Jesus will send angels to gather every last one of them back to land of Israel, after He returns, Matthew 24:31, Ezekiel 39:29, as promised in Deuteronomy 30:4-5

In Zechariah 14, the nations attack Jerusalem, after being drawn into the middle east by the battles in Daniel 11:40-45. In Daniel 11:45, the beast makes his final stand in Jerusalem, which in Daniel 8:27 dares to stand up against the Prince of princes, Jesus.

In Zechariah 14:4-5, them taken hostage, will escape harm by Jesus standing on the Mt. Olives splitting it in half, creating a valley through which they can flee through.

In Zechariah 14:12, them who come up against Jerusalem, will be destroyed by their flesh dissolving quickly while standing on their feet.

In Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire. Where in Revelation 20:10, after the thousand years are over, Satan will join them in the lake of fire.

In Revelation 20:2, an angel will come down from heaven, which will be to the temple mount where the abomination of desolation statue image will have been turned to ashes exposing Satan for the kings of the earth and them present that day to see him, Ezekiel 28:17-19, to be a terror no more (Ezekiel 28:19).

The angel binds Satan in chains in Revelation 20:2 and Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit, imprisoned, isolated from the rest of creation.

In Revelation 20:4-6 them martyred during the great tribulation, who will have become Christians after the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians 4:15-18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11, for not taking the mark, nor worshiping the beast, nor his image (the abomination of desolation statue incarnated by Satan) - will be resurrected and reign with Jesus during the 1000 years.

During the 1000 years, there will be peace upon the earth as nations will beat their swords into plowshares, Isaiah 2:4. No more war between the nations.

The lifespan of men will be lengthened, Isaiah 65:20 during the thousand year. And no death at all after the thousand years are over in the new heaven, and new earth, and new Jerusalem, after the Great White Throne judgment.

After the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from prison for a short period to deceived the nations one last time. Which will result in the nations, including the former Gog/Magog nations, en-masse come up against Jerusalem, Israel, which God destroys them from fire from above.

Satan is then cast into the lake of fire, to join the beast and the false prophet.

Then there is the resurrection for the remainder of the dead, who had not taken part in the resurrection/rapture event, nor the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, for the Great White Throne judgment, which death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14, the second death, which is final.

I did not ask you to give me your misinterpretation of Ezekiel 37, 39, Psalms 2, Isaiah 9, Deuteronomy 30, Daniel 8, 11, Acts 1 and Revelation 19:21. I asked you to do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20. You add all the others because there is zero correlation between the 2, and you know it. That is why you sidestepped my core question. I will ask a few more questions to try and get you to address this.
  1. Where is the second coming in Zechariah 14?
  2. Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
  3. Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
  4. Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
  5. Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
  6. Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
  7. Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
  8. Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟125,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
So, why do you believe that Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled in the future then? It refers to the requirement of keeping the feast of tabernacles and that involves performing animal sacrifices.
Literally or symbolically?

What other time is this? The NHNE? Same reason, no? When did all nations go up to Jerusalem for this event, historically?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,780
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,692.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
did not ask you to give me your misinterpretation of Ezekiel 37, 39, Psalms 2, Isaiah 9, Deuteronomy 30, Daniel 8, 11, Acts 1 and Revelation 19:21. I asked you to do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? You add all the others because there is zero correlation between the 2, and you know it. That is why you sidestepped my core question. I will ask a few more questions to try and get you to address this.
Revelation 20 is the continuation of Revelation 19. Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 are parallel accounts. All of the end times prophecies are tied together.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,780
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,692.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
Revelation 20 is the continuation of Revelation 19. Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 are parallel accounts.

They are parallel accounts, not duplicate accounts.

"Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?"

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

_________________________________

Do you deny that Jesus is LORD ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,584.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 20 is the continuation of Revelation 19. Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 are parallel accounts. All of the end times prophecies are tied together.

Answer the questions above please and stop sidestepping the obvious.
 
Upvote 0

Bob_1000

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2021
613
129
53
Mid-West
✟20,776.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The reference in this parable to the “nobleman” who “went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return” clearly relates to the Lord Jesus Christ and His ascension into heaven. This assumption is supported by the words of Christ at the end of this parable (in verse 27) when He personalizes the story of the ‘certain nobleman’ by saying, “those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
That's not the parable we were discussing and the two parables are not related to one another. This is the parable we were talking about.

In this parable a FATHER planted a vineyard and then went into a far country. Then much later the FATHER sent his SON to reap the harvest but the wicked servants KILLED him.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟125,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Tense is relative to a point of reference in time but since God sits out of time his reference may be at any point. Even an argument of chronological events is also limited as hebraic thought can be non linear. Just read the creation account in Genesis 1 then read the creation account in Genesis 2 and see how well they line up or try to order the Gospels chronologically. Western thought follows step logic and is very linear so A to B to C to D etc... Where eastern or Hebraic thought follows more block logic where entire events may be referenced from a block even if those blocks may be ongoing or complete or not even started and this can change how tense is approached coming from outside the block. Blocks side by side may also conflict each other (again see gen 1 and gen 2) Inside the block it's ordered to build the point not the order it happens. For example day 1 there was light but day 4 the sun is created. Light is more important and is ordered first even though the order doesn't make sense. An argument on tense is a very western way of approaching it.
The NT is sorta in the Greek western thought process, not even Hebrew. Is any one going to argue that Greeks are eastern in their thinking? Next people will try to prove the Greeks were one of the lost 10 tribes of Israel.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The 70 years of Jeremiah 25 is biblical proof that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 are literal.
Is that so? Please tell me how that is the case.

The Jews (Judaism) observe the feast of tabernacles right now. While the temple is not standing, prayers replace the animal sacrifices, is what their position is based on some verses in the bible.
No, they do not. Observing the feast of tabernacles required animal sacrifices. Unbelieving Jews don't get to decide to change how that works.

Whether animals sacrifices will be done or not in the future feast of tabernacles is not stated in Zechariah 14.
They would have to be because that is part of what is required when observing the feast of tabernacles. So, if you're going to interpret that literally and apply it to the future then that would require the reinstating of animal sacrifices.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think you are infusing OT Hebrew thought on the NT Greek and missing the point. The Hebrew only has two tenses; perfect and imperfect. There is no present tense per-se. A perfect tense is actually a completed action and an imperfect tense is an action that is not completed. The thrust of your argument seems to be is to rubbish the reality of the present tense in NT Greek, which is wrong.
Your confusing grammar with thinking. The authors of the NT were Hebraic in their thinking. I'm not saying their tense was confused, I'm sure they use the exact tense they intended, I'm saying how the accounts are organised may not fit a western step logic system. Again read Gen 1 creation vs Gen 2 creation. The same event but organised differently but both are correct because both have different goals and it's the goal that's the point, the details can be reorganised to fit that goal. If you don't like a Hebrew reference then read the Gospels and try and arrange their events chronologically. You will find the order is more fluid and each gospel author may use an event to emphasise a point they are making. An ancient Greek world view is also quite distant from a modern Western world view
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: claninja
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟125,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
If God's people aren't ruling with Christ in the millennium then who is?
The firstfruits of the Second Coming final harvest. The 144k for starters are alive on the earth during the final harvest. Those beheaded for not taking the mark are resurrected on earth. The other group would be the sheep in Matthew 25.
 
Upvote 0

Bob_1000

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2021
613
129
53
Mid-West
✟20,776.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The firstfruits of the Second Coming final harvest. The 144k for starters are alive on the earth during the final harvest. Those beheaded for not taking the mark are resurrected on earth. The other group would be the sheep in Matthew 25.
Do you not consider them Gods people?
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 20 is a continuation of Revelation 19.

Jesus in Revelation 19 returns to this earth.
Where does Revelation 19 say that?

In Acts 1, He is said to return in like manner as He departed this earth from the Mt. of Olives (Zechariah 14, splitting it in half).
That is not what Acts 1 says. It does not say He will return to the same location from which He left. That is absolutely false. Instead, it says He will descend from heaven in like manner as He ascended to heaven. The manner in which He ascended to heaven was visibly and bodily. So, He will descend from heaven visibly and bodily. And, we will meet Him "in the air" when that happens (1 Thess 4:14-17), not on the earth.

In Revelation 19:21, He destroys the armies gathered to make war on Him in verse 21. Corresponding to Ezekiel 39:17-20, called the heathen. In Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself is speaking in the tent, having set his glory among the heathen, i.e.among the nations of world. God in Psalms 2, in spite of the nations raging and imagining a vain thing, God will place Jesus (upon David's throne, Isaiah 9:7) as king in Zion (Jerusalem, Israel), Psalms 2:6.
God already placed Jesus upon David's throne, as I've shown you before. Peter said so in Acts 2:29-36 where he said that the way in which God raised up Christ to David's throne was when He raised up Christ from the dead.

Which Jesus will be their (the Jews, Jerusalem) king forever, Ezekiel 37:24-25, in the land that God gave their forefathers, verse 25. Which Jesus will send angels to gather every last one of them back to land of Israel, after He returns, Matthew 24:31, Ezekiel 39:29, as promised in Deuteronomy 30:4-5
The elect will be gathered and caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" at which point sudden destruction will come down upon all believers from which "they shall not escape". That is what Paul taught (1 Thess 4:14-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10). As usual, you are not allowing the New Testament to shine light on and interpret the Old Testament for you.

In a parallel account, in Zechariah 14, the nations attack Jerusalem, after being drawn into the middle east by the battles in Daniel 11:40-45. In Daniel 11:45, the beast makes his final stand in Jerusalem, which in Daniel 8:27 dares to stand up against the Prince of princes, Jesus.

In Zechariah 14:4-5, them taken hostage, will escape harm by Jesus standing on the Mt. Olives splitting it in half, creating a valley through which they can flee through.

In Zechariah 14:12, them who come up against Jerusalem, will be destroyed by their flesh dissolving quickly while standing on their feet.

In the parallel account, in Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire. Where in Revelation 20:10, after the thousand years are over, Satan will join them in the lake of fire.
Why are you comparing living people who haven't even died yet being physically killed by fire to people being cast into the lake of fire? Those are two completely different things.

In Revelation 20:2, an angel will come down from heaven, which will be to the temple mount where the abomination of desolation statue image will have been turned to ashes exposing Satan for the kings of the earth and them present that day to see him, Ezekiel 28:17-19, to be a terror no more (Ezekiel 28:19).
That's quite a stretch to draw that conclusion since Ezekiel 28:17-19 says nothing about anyone being cast into the bottomless pit. If he is supposed "to be a terror no more" at that point, then how do you explain Revelation 20:7-9?

The angel binds Satan in chains in Revelation 20:2 and Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit, imprisoned, isolated from the rest of creation.
If the bottomless pit is a literal bottomless pit, then where is it located?

In Revelation 20:4-6 them martyred during the great tribulation, who will have become Christians after the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians 4:15-18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11, for not taking the mark, nor worshiping the beast, nor his image (the abomination of desolation statue incarnated by Satan) - will be resurrected and reign with Jesus during the 1000 years.
What other scripture can you reference that speaks of a resurrection of only martyred tribulation saints? It's always best to be able to corroborate your interpretation with other scripture if you want your argument to be convincing, so please tell me what other scripture supports your interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6? Can you tell me why Paul didn't reference a resurrection of martyred tribulation saints in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 when he gave the order of bodily resurrections?

During the 1000 years, there will be peace upon the earth as nations will beat their swords into plowshares, Isaiah 2:4. No more war between the nations.
Isaiah 2:4 says they will not learn war ANYMORE. How do you explain Revelation 20:7-9 then?

The lifespan of men will be lengthened, Isaiah 65:20 during the thousand year. And no death at all after the thousand years are over in the new heaven, and new earth, and new Jerusalem, after the Great White Throne judgment.
Isaiah 65:20 relates to the new heavens and new earth. Why are you interpreting the verse in such a way that blatantly contradicts what John said about the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21:4, which is that there will be no more death at that time?

After the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from prison for a short period to deceive the nations one last time. Which will result in the nations, including the former Gog/Magog nations, en-masse to come up against Jerusalem, Israel, which God destroys them by fire from above.
This really shows your lack of discernment. It doesn't say the nations, including the former Gog/Magog nations. It's not even referring to nations there. They number "as the sand of the sea", so it can be referring to nations. It's referring to the heathen around the world and they are figuratively referred to as "Gog and Magog" because they are like Gog from the land of Magog in their wickedness and rebellion against God. This is similar to how the great city where our Lord was crucified is referred to figuratively as Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8. You continually miss the figurative references in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

Do you see the word "including" in there before "Gog and Magog"? Neither do I.

Satan is then cast into the lake of fire, to join the beast and the false prophet.

Then there is the resurrection for the remainder of the dead, who had not taken part in the resurrection/rapture event, nor the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, for the Great White Throne judgment, which death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14, the second death, which is final.
Can you show me where scripture teaches that there will be 3 separate future resurrection events? Do you see that described here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

If we take Jesus at His word, then we should believe that there is one general resurrection event that will occur in the future. At the very most there would be two (one of the saved and one of the lost), but the fact that He said a time (not times) is coming when ALL of the dead will be raised strongly implies one resurrection event, not two or three. And it's not that the lost have to be resurrected at the same exact moment as the saved, but Jesus gave no indication whatsoever that they would be resurrected a long time apart. And He certainly gave no indication whatsoever of 3 separate resurrection events.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The NT is sorta in the Greek western thought process, not even Hebrew. Is any one going to argue that Greeks are eastern in their thinking? Next people will try to prove the Greeks were one of the lost 10 tribes of Israel.
They certainly carried an ancient mindset that is very distant from modern Western thought. But even still, written/thought in Greek or not, the prophetic may default into Hebraic understanding and certainly from a Jewish perspective. I'm not necessarily arguing the point of the op, I'm saying tense alone is too one dimensional way of approaching it and it's more complex then that and certainly seems to be superimposing a modern way of thinking over an ancient. We can't just say ancient Greek is western in thinking and so am I so we must think the same. This all doesn't address the fact that God is outside of time so his referent of time doesn't have to agree with ours.
 
Upvote 0