WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Swag365 · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Correct. And to clarify further, the status of having "eternal life" is contrasted with those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, and will be cast into the lake of fire after the Great White Throne Judgment. And the Bible describes this as the "second death".

So, eternal life is opposite of the second death. One either goes to heaven or goes to the lake of fire.

Or purgatory.

You should read John 5:24 more carefully, if you really believe that.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Sure, but he can cross right back over from life to death again. Not being judged is conditional on the belief. There are plenty of Christians who love the Lord today but will be ranting atheists tomorrow (and don’t even try the “they were never really among us” argument because I ain’t buying that).

This verse tells us quite clearly the result of believing in Jesus Christ:

1. they POSSESS eternal life.
2. they WILL NOT BE judged. Doesn't say "may not", it says WILL NOT.
3. they have crossed over from spiritual death to eternal life.

Where do you see any kind of wording that would even suggest that these things are conditioned on something else? I don't.

Plus, we have Jesus' plain words in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We see that Jesus is the Giver of eternal life, and we saw from John 5:24 that occurs WHEN a person believes.

And the result of receiving the gift of eternal life is clearly stated: and they shall never perish.

So the Bible teaches in the clearest of words that from the MOMENT of faith in Christ, the person shall never perish, or experience the second death.

Right. A bit of discernment and one should obviously realize that is referring to eternity itself. But John 5:24 is very clear; the actual gift of eternal life is received WHEN one believes.

So you just make up your own rules and believe whatever you want to, huh.

When John 5:24 and 10:28 are combined, it is very obvious that salvation is permanent.

Well I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate. I just wanted to make a brief point about that specific verse. I’m sure that every verse and every argument that either of us would raise has been discussed to death before, but I see OSAS clearly refuted in Romans 11 and John 15.

For John 10:28, you merely need to look at verse 27. There you see that having eternal life is conditional on being a sheep and following our Lord. There are plenty of Christians who follow the Lord today, but who will curse him a few years from now.

Swag365 · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
I, otoh, have quoted a verse that tells us clearly that those who believe POSSESS eternal life.

Not a "promise" of a later reception of eternal life, as you erroneously presume, but the actual gift of eternal life. John 5:24, the verse that you repeatedly fail to comprehend.

Sure, but a gift must be accepted, no? My GF can give me a watch today. I can accept the gift and wear the watch, but then throw the gift into the trash tomorrow. So it is for the gift of eternal life.

Think about it, if what you are saying is true, then anyone who is saved becomes a robot. He no longer has a choice as to whether he can keep the gift, or throw the gift away. He is essentially a puppet at that point, and God forces him to keep the gift, even if he wants to throw it away, according to your view.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 11, 2021

I said:
"So, eternal life is opposite of the second death. One either goes to heaven or goes to the lake of fire."

Swag365 said:
Or purgatory.

I thought the RCC has ceased to believe in Purgatory. What verse mentions Purgatory?

Sure, but he can cross right back over from life to death again.

How interesting. Esp since Jesus said those He gives eternal life (John 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

How do you "square" that hole?

Not being judged is conditional on the belief.

Apparently you aren't understanding what Jesus said. From the MOMENT of belief in Christ for salvation, that person "will not be judged". That's what John 5:24 says.

There are plenty of Christians who love the Lord today but will be ranting atheists tomorrow (and don’t even try the “they were never really among us” argument because I ain’t buying that).

True. But, so what? Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Do you believe what Jesus said, or not?

Well I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate.

No need to. John 5:24 with John 10:28 proves beyond any shadow of doubt that once a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life and shall never perish. Open and shut case.

I just wanted to make a brief point about that specific verse. I’m sure that every verse and every argument that either of us would raise has been discussed to death before, but I see OSAS clearly refuted in Romans 11 and John 15.

Doesn't mean you are reading either chapter clearly.

For John 10:28, you merely need to look at verse 27. There you see that having eternal life is conditional on being a sheep and following our Lord.

Please read the 2 verses again. And then point out the actual words that SHOW that "following our Lord" is a condition for receiving eternal life.

Those who are interested in knowing the SINGULAR condition for eternal life need look no further than:

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Please point to the verse that says eternal life is received by "following our Lord".

You may be unaware, but the command to "follow our Lord" is for believers, who are already saved.

There are plenty of Christians who follow the Lord today, but who will curse him a few years from now.

Sadly true. But, there are no verses ANYWHERE in the Bible that clearly state that salvation or eternal life can be lost.

You are just kidding yourself to believe that.

Those kind of ideas are just what the devil wants to "devour" believers.

Don't be devoured.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 11, 2021

Swag365 said:
Sure, but a gift must be accepted, no?

Of course. What is your point? John 5:24 says plainly that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. Does that sound like the gift was accepted? Of course it does.

My GF can give me a watch today. I can accept the gift and wear the watch, but then throw the gift into the trash tomorrow. So it is for the gift of eternal life.

Oh, I see. You view eternal life like some cheap Timex watch, huh? Well, LIFE ain't a watch. God's life is eternal life. You cannot:
1. give it away
2. lose it
3. break it
4. have it stolen from you
5. any other silly notion that someone can come up with.

Or, if you think otherwise, please provide the verse that actually says what you claim.

That would but an end to all argument, right?

Think about it, if what you are saying is true, then anyone who is saved becomes a robot. He no longer has a choice as to whether he can keep the gift, or throw the gift away.

No offense, but this is a stupid argument. If it were true, there would be a verse or several that teaches this. So.......please provide your evidence from Scripture.

Otherwise, I will consider your claim to be nothing more than your opinion.

He is essentially a puppet at that point, and God forces him to keep the gift, even if he wants to throw it away, according to your view.

This is quite an imagination.

So, let's focus on what the Bible says about someone who believes and receives the gift of eternal life.

1. They become of son of God.
2. They become a new creature.
3. They are justified from all sin.
4. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

You need to quit thinking of the gift of eternal life like you do that cheap Timex you mentioned.

There is no comparison. God's life is infinitely more valuable and permanent than your Timex.

Further, eternal life isn't an object, so your whole argument falls apart.

Swag365 · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course. What is your point? John 5:24 says plainly that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. Does that sound like the gift was accepted? Of course it does.

Oh, I see. You view eternal life like some cheap Timex watch, huh? Well, LIFE ain't a watch. God's life is eternal life. You cannot:
1. give it away
2. lose it
3. break it
4. have it stolen from you
5. any other silly notion that someone can come up with.

Or, if you think otherwise, please provide the verse that actually says what you claim.

That would but an end to all argument, right?

No offense, but this is a stupid argument. If it were true, there would be a verse or several that teaches this. So.......please provide your evidence from Scripture.

Otherwise, I will consider your claim to be nothing more than your opinion.

This is quite an imagination.

So, let's focus on what the Bible says about someone who believes and receives the gift of eternal life.

1. They become of son of God.
2. They become a new creature.
3. They are justified from all sin.
4. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

You need to quit thinking of the gift of eternal life like you do that cheap Timex you mentioned.

There is no comparison. God's life is infinitely more valuable and permanent than your Timex.

Further, eternal life isn't an object, so your whole argument falls apart.

I see. So the gift of salvation is something that must be accepted, but it cannot be rejected? This reminds me of what Wesley said concerning this whole matter:

“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!”

Have a blessed day.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
This is a phony claim. The single condition for receiving eternal life is found in John 5:24, a verse that you have repeatedly demonstrated as being unable to understand it.

Sorry dear friend but that is not true at all. If we received the gift of eternal life now there would not be any more death now. Is that that case? As posted earlier the scriptures (not me) teach that we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over.

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, Scripture DOES warn believers not to return to unbelief/sin. But it's NOT about losing salvation, as you presume, and without any verses that say what you claim.

What are you talking about there is not any verse that says a believer cannot lose their salvation through departing the faith and returning to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin. You were posted not one but over 100+ scriptures showing that by "departing the faith" we are no longer "believing" which is the condition for receiving God's promise of eternal life. The scriptures plainly state in John 3:36 that those who are not believing do not see life. While Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 says that those who "depart the faith end is to be burned" or they receive "fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." This is because they are no longer "believing" and "following" what Gods' Word says which is the condition to receiving God's promise of eternal life. They have departed the faith from being believers to becoming "unbelievers" and the scriptures teach no unbelievers enter into God's Kingdom *see the scriptures provided here linked). Sorry dear friend are you seriously going to try and argue that unbelievers and those who live a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin still receive everlasting life? That is simply not biblical or supported in scripture.

FreeGrace2 said:
The warning are about loss of eternal reward, which are earned, and God's hand of divine discipline, which is PAINFUL according to Heb 12:11.

Hebrews 12:11 says [11], Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them which are exercised thereby. The context to Hebrews 12:11 is to those who are believing God's Word *Hebrews 12:8 not to those who have departed the faith and are not longer believing and following Gods' Word. These people have not departed the faith *see Hebrews 12:13. So these scriptures do not support your teachings. The only chastening that those who do not believe and follow what God's Word says is eternal death as already shown in the scriptures post # 5 here linked.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your faulty view that the Bible warns of loss of salvation is actually heretical, given what Jesus taught in John 10:28. Your claims are directly in opposition to what Jesus said.

Dear friend these are just more of your words that are not God's Word unsupported by scripture or evidence that disagree with Gods' Word that are not my words but Gods' Word. As already shown through the scriptures your ignoring the scripture context of John 10:28 which says [10] And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. The context your disregarding is in John 10:26-27 where it defines who God gives eternal life to which says; [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. [27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. So those who God gives eternal life to are those who believe and follow his voice (the Word). God does not give eternal life to those who do not believe and do not follow what His Word says because John 10:26 says that they are not His sheep. John 10:28 does not say when eternal life is given it says that eternal life is given nothing more. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over. The rest of your post is repetition already addressed with a detailed scripture response that you refuse to discuss that disagrees with your teachings.

Take Care dear friend.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
It doesn't matter what you agree with or disagree with. Your atrocious misunderstanding of very clearly worded verses puts you on the OUTS with Scripture.

Your entire theology is based on the unbiblical notion that eternal life is received at the end of one's life. Yet you haven't proven that from Scripture. So it's only your uninformed opinion.

Only if you come to your senses and realize what John 5:24 and 10:28 says, will you finally line up with Scripture, instead of being AGAINST Scripture, as you are now doing.

I am sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree. These are just more of your words unsupported by evidence or scripture that have already been addressed in detail with God's Word that are not my words that you refuse to discuss so we will agree to disagree. It is your understanding of John 5:24 that is in error. As shown through the scriptures already, John 5:24 which says [24], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. Now go look up the believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) it is a verb that is present participle active and means present tense active to "believing" so the scripture says "he that hears my words and is believing on him that sent me has everlasting life.

If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. Have a look at John 3:36 [36], He that believes believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. John 3:36 [36], He that believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not (G4100 πιστεύων = believing not) the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God stays on him.

As already shown through the scriptures your ignoring the scripture context of John 10:28 which says [10] And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. The context your disregarding is in John 10:26-27 where it defines who God gives eternal life to which says; [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. [27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. So those who God gives eternal life to are those who believe and follow his voice (the Word).

God does not give eternal life to those who do not believe and do not follow what His Word says because John 10:26 says that they are not His sheep. John 10:28 does not say when eternal life is given it says that eternal life is given nothing more. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over.

You may also what to consider over 100+ scriptures that have already been posted that disagrees with your teachings see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 3:8-19 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199; post # 221 linked or post # 225 and once again in post # 257 and post 281 linked.

My prayer is that you might receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. According to Jesus in John 12:47-48 the Words of God we accept or reject become our judge come judgement day.

Take Care dear friend.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 11, 2021

Swag365 said:
I see. So the gift of salvation is something that must be accepted, but it cannot be rejected?

No, I don't think you do see. The gift of salvation isn't something that "must be accepted". Where do you get your ideas? The gift is offered to everyone. Those who believe the gospel receive the gift.

If you disagree with my claim that:

So, let's focus on what the Bible says about someone who believes and receives the gift of eternal life.

1. They become of son of God.
2. They become a new creature.
3. They are justified from all sin.
4. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

You need to quit thinking of the gift of eternal life like you do that cheap Timex you mentioned.

Then you need to address each point and show ANY verse that shows points 1-4 being revoked. Otherwise, you have no case.

This reminds me of what Wesley said concerning this whole matter:

“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!”

Have a blessed day.

Who cares what Wesley thought about anything? He clearly didn't believe what Jesus said in either John 5:24 or John 10:28.

He holds no sway with me. I DO believe what Jesus said. All of it.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This is a phony claim. The single condition for receiving eternal life is found in John 5:24, a verse that you have repeatedly demonstrated as being unable to understand it.

LoveGodsWord said:
Sorry dear friend but that is not true at all. If we received the gift of eternal life now there would not be any more death now

So you think arguing against what Jesus actually SAID is a bright idea? Well, go ahead then, but I'm done trying to reason with you. Your views aren't reasonable at all.

As posted earlier the scriptures (not me) teach that we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word.

Please at least TRY to be reasonable.

Did you show from John 5:24 that Jesus was only referring to a promise of eternal life at a later time? No, you didn't do that. Because you CAN'T do that. Jesus didn't say anything about a "promise" in that verse. He spoke of actually POSSESSING eternal life, which is described as a gift.

Because of your extremely biased and negative view toward Scripture, I see no value in further discussion. My preference is to discuss with reasonable people.

We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over.

No, we have the actual gift of eternal life, as Jesus SAID in plain words.

What are you talking about there is not any verse that says a believer cannot lose their salvation through departing the faith and returning to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin.

That's correct. There are no such verses that say what you keep claiming.

You were posted not one but over 100+ scriptures showing that by "departing the faith" we are no longer "believing" which is the condition for receiving God's promise of eternal life.

No, I wasn't shown any such thing. In fact, since you have clearly demonstrated your inability to properly understand John 5:24, there is no reason to think that you are able to properly understand any other verse. It would be UN-REASONABLE to think otherwise.

The scriptures plainly state in John 3:36 that those who are not believing do not see life.

But you have rejected 2 verses that clarify John 3:36.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses make very clear that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

That means they NEVER believed. That's the context for John 3:36.

If you keep up your very unreasonable and unbiblical notions, I won't spend any more time trying to reason with you, since you are being just totally unreasonable.

I've shown you the truth directly from Scripture, yet you refuse to believe it.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 11, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I am sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree.

Disagreeing with the truth of Scripture is hardly being "respectful". Please get real.

I've shown you PLAIN words from Scripture, but you've rejected their clear meaning.

That isn't either respectful or reasonable.

If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24.

Your points are pointless and meaningless. They miss the whole point of the verses.

I've already shown you from John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 that condemnation is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

So, anyone who has EVER believed, received eternal life when they believed, and shall never perish. But you refuse to connect the dots between John 5:24 and John 10:28.

As already shown through the scriptures your ignoring the scripture context of John 10:28 which says [10] And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. The context your disregarding is in John 10:26-27 where it defines who God gives eternal life to

You couldn't be more wrong. v.27 describes what believers do. v.27 DOESN'T create a "condition" for receiving eternal life. That's just a complete untruth.

God does not give eternal life to those who do not believe and do not follow what His Word says because John 10:26 says that they are not His sheep.

Your flat out rejection of John 5:24 is shameless and very unreasonable, pluse quite disrespectful.

Jesus said those who believe POSSESS eternal life, which you cannot refute.

John 10:28 does not say when eternal life is given

That's why I always include John 5:24, which DOES say WHEN eternal life received and possessed.

it says that eternal life is given nothing more.

"nothing more"??? Are you kidding? Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That's MORE than "something".

As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, we receive the "Hope" of eternal life

No you haven't. Saying so is an untruth.

Swag365 · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I don't think you do see. The gift of salvation isn't something that "must be accepted". Where do you get your ideas? The gift is offered to everyone. Those who believe the gospel receive the gift.

You already admitted above at post #304 that the gift must be accepted. You believe and are saved. Are you capable of rejecting God and becoming and atheist tomorrow? If not, you have no free-will. You are a robot. A puppet.You cannot make a choice of your own. You may not like that but that is what you are according to your own theology.

If you disagree with my claim that:

So, let's focus on what the Bible says about someone who believes and receives the gift of eternal life.

1. They become of son of God.
2. They become a new creature.
3. They are justified from all sin.
4. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

Refuted here:

https://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22/sealed-unto-the-day-of-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/amp/

Then you need to address each point and show ANY verse that shows points 1-4 being revoked. Otherwise, you have

No, what you need to do is stop misinterpreting Scripture. Otherwise, you have no case.

Who cares what Wesley thought about anything?

At this point, who cares what YOU think about anything? I certainly do not.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
This is a phony claim. The single condition for receiving eternal life is found in John 5:24, a verse that you have repeatedly demonstrated as being unable to understand it.

Yes this is what you posted earlier so it simply repetition already responded to with a detailed scripture response. If we received the gift of eternal life now there would not be any more death now. Is that that case? As posted earlier the scriptures (not me) teach that we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over."

FreeGrace2 said:
So you think arguing against what Jesus actually SAID is a bright idea? Well, go ahead then, but I'm done trying to reason with you. Your views aren't reasonable at all.

As proven through the scriptures already I believe it is you that is arguing against Gods' Word that has been shared with you with your words that are not Gods' Word. My view is very reasonable as it is God's Word. My prayer is that we all might believe and follow what God's Word says.

FreeGrace2 said:
Please at least TRY to be reasonable. Did you show from John 5:24 that Jesus was only referring to a promise of eternal life at a later time? No, you didn't do that. Because you CAN'T do that. Jesus didn't say anything about a "promise" in that verse. He spoke of actually POSSESSING eternal life, which is described as a gift. Because of your extremely biased and negative view toward Scripture, I see no value in further discussion. My preference is to discuss with reasonable people.

Yes as shown through the scriptures already we have shown that, John 5:24 which says [24], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. The Greek Word for "believe" here is G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS which means believing. It is a verb that is present participle active and means present tense active to "believing" so the scripture says "he that hears my words and is believing on him that sent me has everlasting life."

If some one has departed the faith *Hebrews 6:4-8 or Hebrews 10:26-31 they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24 which says John 3:36 [36], He that believes believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not (believing not - present tense) the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving therefore shall not see life but the wrath of God stays on him. This is the context your disregarding. God's gift and promise of "eternal life" is conditional to "believing" (justification) and following (sanctification) what God's Word says.

As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over.

FreeGrace2 said:
That's correct. There are no such verses that say what you keep claiming.

Thank you. Then there is no such thing as once saved always saved because if we as believers choose to "depart the faith" and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin we will be lost and lose everlasting life.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I wasn't shown any such thing. In fact, since you have clearly demonstrated your inability to properly understand John 5:24, there is no reason to think that you are able to properly understand any other verse. It would be UN-REASONABLE to think otherwise.

Actually that is not true. You were provided over 100+ scriptures disagreeing with your teachings and showing that God's promise of eternal life is conditional to believing and following what Gods Word says see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 3:8-19 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199; post # 221 linked or post # 225 and once again in post # 257 and post 281 linked.

FreeGrace2 said:
But you have rejected 2 verses that clarify John 3:36. John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Both verses make very clear that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

Actually no that is not true at all but let me explain why again if it might be helpful. You were corrected here earlier through the scriptures and the Greek but your response was to ignore what was posted to you and simply continue repeating yourself like your doing now. As posted to you earlier, John 3:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 (we can also include John 3:15-16; John 3:36 and John 5:24) application of "believe" or "not believe" or "believe not" is present indicative active which means "believing", "not believing" or "believing not". This is the same use of the Greek word for "believe" and "believe not" that is used in John 3:36. What that means is that all three scriptures (and the others listed above) are conditional outcomes action. That is, by "believing" (present tense) we receive eternal life and not believing we do not see life but the wrath of God. The scriptures in John 3:18 therefore reads like this; [18] He that believing on him is not condemned: but he that believing not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. The scripture does not say anywhere that he has "never believed". He has not believed is in application to present tense of "believing". Another words of we are not believing (present tense) we have not believed.

Take Care dear friend.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 11, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Disagreeing with the truth of Scripture is hardly being "respectful". Please get real.

Agreed. Please stop doing it.

FreeGrace2 said:
I've shown you PLAIN words from Scripture, but you've rejected their clear meaning. That isn't either respectful or reasonable.

There is nothing wrong with the scripture you have provided. It is your interpretation of these scriptures that is the problem. It is your interpretation of these scriptures that have been proven in error with scriptural evidence from Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 3:8-19 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199; post # 221 linked or post # 225 and once again in post # 257 and post 281 linked etc etc. Your response was only to repeat your teachings without addressing the scriptures and questions asked of you that disagree with your teachings.

FreeGrace2 said:
I've already shown you from John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 that condemnation is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

As posted earlier the John 3:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 does not say these people "never believed". Your reading that into the scriptures. As posted earlier, the application of John 3:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 (we can also include John 3:15-16; John 3:36 and John 5:24) of "believe" or "not believe" or "believe not" is present indicative active which means "believing", "not believing" or "believing not". This is the same use of the Greek word for "believe" and "believe not" that is used in John 3:36. What that means is that all three scriptures (and the others listed above) are conditional outcomes of an action. That is, by "believing" (present tense) we receive eternal life and not believing we do not see life but the wrath of God. The scriptures in John 3:18 therefore reads like this; [18] He that believing on him is not condemned: but he that believing not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. The scripture does not say anywhere that he has "never believed". He has not believed is in application to present tense of "believing". Another words of we are not believing (present tense) we have not believed. The scripture is not saying they have never believed.

The rest of your post is repetition in regards to John 5:24 and John 10:28 already addressed in post # 307 linked that you ignored and your words disagreeing with God's Word in the post you are quoting from so I guess we will agree to disagree.

Take Care dear friend.

prophecy_uk · Nov 12, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
So, anyone who has EVER believed, received eternal life when they believed, and shall never perish. But you refuse to connect the dots between John 5:24 and John 10:28.

That's why I always include John 5:24, which DOES say WHEN eternal life received and possessed.

Eternal life is possessing light, and if men love darkness instead of light ( their deeds being evil) they are in condemnation and possess nothing else.

If the light that is in us is really darkness, how great is that light also.

The light of life layed His life down, we know who soaks darkness then, as they lay nothing of their life down.

All they lay down is the law.

But the Spirit of the life in Christ, has made us free from their laws of sin and death.

Pride is sin, lots of great swelling words and not obedience, to be swift to hear and slow to speak.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 12, 2021

Swag365 said:
You already admitted above at post #304 that the gift must be accepted.

The context is about never perishing. ONLY those who receive the gift through faith in Christ shall never perish. That was the point.

You believe and are saved. Are you capable of rejecting God and becoming and atheist tomorrow? If not, you have no free-will. You are a robot. A puppet.You cannot make a choice of your own. You may not like that but that is what you are according to your own theology.

You must erroneously assume that I am a Calvinist. That couldn't be more wrong.

Yes, God created humanity with free will. That's why salvation is OFFERED to everyone, as Titus 2:11 says.

No, what you need to do is stop misinterpreting Scripture. Otherwise, you have no case.

Please show me where I've disinterpreted anything in the Bible.

At this point, who cares what YOU think about anything? I certainly do not.

Nice snark.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 12, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes this is what you posted earlier so it simply repetition already responded to with a detailed scripture response. If we received the gift of eternal life now there would not be any more death now. Is that that case? As posted earlier the scriptures (not me) teach that we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over."

As proven through the scriptures already I believe it is you that is arguing against Gods' Word that has been shared with you with your words that are not Gods' Word. My view is very reasonable as it is God's Word. My prayer is that we all might believe and follow what God's Word says.

Yes as shown through the scriptures already we have shown that, John 5:24 which says [24], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. The Greek Word for "believe" here is G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS which means believing. It is a verb that is present participle active and means present tense active to "believing" so the scripture says "he that hears my words and is believing on him that sent me has everlasting life."

If some one has departed the faith *Hebrews 6:4-8 or Hebrews 10:26-31 they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24 which says John 3:36 [36], He that believes believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not (believing not - present tense) the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving therefore shall not see life but the wrath of God stays on him. This is the context your disregarding. God's gift and promise of "eternal life" is conditional to "believing" (justification) and following (sanctification) what God's Word says.

As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over.

Thank you. Then there is no such thing as once saved always saved because if we as believers choose to "depart the faith" and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin we will be lost and lose everlasting life.

Actually that is not true. You were provided over 100+ scriptures disagreeing with your teachings and showing that God's promise of eternal life is conditional to believing and following what Gods Word says see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 3:8-19 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199; post # 221 linked or post # 225 and once again in post # 257 and post 281 linked.

Actually no that is not true at all but let me explain why again if it might be helpful. You were corrected here earlier through the scriptures and the Greek but your response was to ignore what was posted to you and simply continue repeating yourself like your doing now. As posted to you earlier, John 3:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 (we can also include John 3:15-16; John 3:36 and John 5:24) application of "believe" or "not believe" or "believe not" is present indicative active which means "believing", "not believing" or "believing not". This is the same use of the Greek word for "believe" and "believe not" that is used in John 3:36. What that means is that all three scriptures (and the others listed above) are conditional outcomes action. That is, by "believing" (present tense) we receive eternal life and not believing we do not see life but the wrath of God. The scriptures in John 3:18 therefore reads like this; [18] He that believing on him is not condemned: but he that believing not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. The scripture does not say anywhere that he has "never believed". He has not believed is in application to present tense of "believing". Another words of we are not believing (present tense) we have not believed.

Take Care dear friend.

As I have already said, since you reject the very clear and plain words of Jesus in John 5:24, that whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life, and instead believe the fallacy that eternal life isn't received until the end of one's life, all without any verse to support your claims, there is no reason for further discussion.

Since you reject what Jesus said in the clearest of terms, why should I accept your view of any other verse? There is no reason.

As to your comment about if one HAS eternal life, they wouldn't ever die, let me finish my discussion with you by explaining how all this works.

In the Bible, the lake of fire is described as the "second death" in Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14 and 21:8.

The Bible teaches that ALL men will die physically in Heb 9:27, so your comments about someone who possesses eternal life not dying physically is absurd.

Those who possess eternal life will NOT experience the SECOND DEATH, or the lake of fire.

Everyone WILL experience physical death. But ONLY those who possess eternal life will NOT experience the SECOND DEATH.

That is why Jesus could say in John 10:28 "I give them (believers - 5:24) eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH."

Jesus was referring to the Second Death.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 12, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Disagreeing with the truth of Scripture is hardly being "respectful". Please get real.

LoveGodsWord said:
Agreed. Please stop doing it.

I'm not the one who rejects what Jesus taught in both John 5:24 and 10:28. It is disrespectful to reject what Jesus teaches. Everyone knows that.

There is nothing wrong with the scripture you have provided.

Thank you. Of course there wouldn't be.

It is your interpretation of these scriptures that is the problem.

No, the WHOLE problem is that the verses I've been emphasizing need no "interpretation" because they are very clear and straightforward. One could even describe them as being "plain language".

It's YOUR bogus interpretation that is the whole problem. You have argued that Jesus couldn't have meant that whoever believes actually possesses eternal life, because you erroneously presumed that eternal life would prevent physical death. Which is totally bogus. As I explained thoroughly in my previous post.

It is your interpretation of these scriptures that have been proven in error with scriptural evidence from Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 3:8-19 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199; post # 221 linked or post # 225 and once again in post # 257 and post 281 linked etc etc. Your response was only to repeat your teachings without addressing the scriptures and questions asked of you that disagree with your teachings.

You simply don't know what you are talking about. And because you have rejected the very clear words of Jesus, there is no reason to accept ANYTHING you say about any other verse.

As posted earlier the John 3:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 does not say these people "never believed".

<sigh> Really? OK then, how about proving that the phrase "has NOT believed" cannot mean "has NEVER believed". I can't wait for your "interpretation". lol

The scripture is not saying they have never believed.

That is exactly what the verses do say. But I'm interested in how you will try to spin them.

The rest of your post is repetition in regards to John 5:24 and John 10:28

The purpose of repetation is to teach. But it is clear that you are not in a position to learn. Your eyes and ears are closed very tightly.

Swag365 · Nov 12, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
The context is about never perishing. ONLY those who receive the gift through faith in Christ shall never perish. That was the point.

You must erroneously assume that I am a Calvinist. That couldn't be more wrong.

Yes, God created humanity with free will. That's why salvation is OFFERED to everyone, as Titus 2:11 says.

Whatever you are, your position on OSAS still makes you a puppet without the ability to choose.

Nice snark.

You’re welcome.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 12, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Eternal life is possessing light

Huh? No, eternal life is God's life. To qualify to live with God in eternity, one MUST possess eternal life.

and if men love darkness instead of light ( their deeds being evil) they are in condemnation and possess nothing else.

Rather, John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that condemnation is for those who "have NOT believed".

Which means "have NEVER believed".

FreeGrace2 · Nov 12, 2021

Swag365 said:
Whatever you are, your position on OSAS still makes you a puppet without the ability to choose.

I guess you really don't realize how silly this is.

What you are seemingly trying to prove is that man has the ability to nullify what God does when a person believes in Christ. That would be beyond absurd.

When God saves someone, He does things that are irrevocable. As I showed.

All you are trying to do is nullify all those things that God does for the believer, which is WHEN they believe.

btw, those who reject eternal security are actually rejecting the Bible and Jesus' own words.

You’re welcome.

Wow. So you're actually proud of it??

Swag365 · Nov 12, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
I guess you really don't realize how silly this is.

What you are seemingly trying to prove is that man has the ability to nullify what God does when a person believes in Christ. That would be beyond absurd.

When God saves someone, He does things that are irrevocable. As I showed.

All you are trying to do is nullify all those things that God does for the believer, which is WHEN they believe.

OK so you are a puppet without a choice. Thank you for admitting it. Tomorrow can you make a choice to continue to follow God, or to reject God? According to OSAS you cannot make that choice so you are a robot.

btw, those who reject eternal security are actually rejecting the Bible and Jesus' own words.

Nonsense. We reject your tradition of men and misinterpretation of Scripture.

Wow. So you're actually proud of it??

Yes I am quite proud to give you a small bit of your own medicine, considering how rude and snarky you have been towards those who disagree with you in this thread. If you don’t like it, too bad.

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