Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

claninja

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Well certainly I think it's wholly true that Jesus reigns now. How He exercises that authority up to the point He decides it's time to recreate the cosmos; obviously isn't fully understood by us - still existing in this mess.

absolutely agree Jesus reigns now. He is nobleman who went to a far away country to receive a kingdom. However, My goal here is to address when the servants receive authority for the works they have done. In Luke 19:12 it’s when the nobleman returns, not when he leaves.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It is not "my" future millennium. It is what is in the bible.

Christians do not do animal sacrifices now, and will not do them in the millennium.

You are not answering the questions here. You are fixated with Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 yet the objective observer will quickly see that there is obviously absolutely no correlation between them. Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20?
 
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claninja

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I preached on this Sunday.

The kingdom is here now.

Romans 13:1 testifies: “For there is no power (exousia – or authority) but of God."

Jesus declared in Matthew 28:18 after His resurrection, All power (exousia – or authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus has never suffered one defeat at the hands of Satan. Whether before the incarnation, whether during the life of Jesus 2000 years ago, whether through the Cross and through the resurrection, or whether ever since, Jesus is an all-conquering king.

· Jesus cannot be defeated.
· Jesus cannot be overcome.
· Jesus cannot be outsmarted.
· Jesus cannot be thwarted.

Romans 9:19-21 says, “For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?”

Ephesians 1:11 tells us, He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”

The devil is a serial loser, but Jesus is a serial winner. The victories Satan gets our only temporal, and normally because we believers have dropped the ball.

· What He says goes!
· What He does stands!

One of the most amazing and mind-blowing things in Scripture is: Jesus does not keep all this power and authority to Himself. He shares it with His people.

Jesus said in Mark 13:34: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority (exousia) to his servants."

This word interpreted “authority” here is the exact same word that is used to describe God’s authority and Christ authority in the New Testament. Again, like we learned last week, this is the Greek word exousia.

· It is divine authority.
· It is heavenly authority.
· It is supernatural authority.
· It is spiritual authority.

Luk 19:12 A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.


Amazingly, God has ordained that He will reveal Himself through people like you and me. We carry His favour, blessing authority in a fallen world. He’s placed a light within us that liberates the blind and which the kingdom of darkness cannot deal with. All we need to do is let it shine. What is that light? It is Jesus.

The reference in this parable to the “nobleman” who “went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return” clearly relates to the Lord Jesus Christ and His ascension into heaven. In verse 12 it affirms, that He is going “to return” and in verse 13 we see the instruction, “Occupy till I come.” We are not here to play defense, we are here to play offense. We are here to invade the darkness with the glorious light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

This is extraordinary. The power and authority that Jesus possesses He has given to us.

Think about this: when we align with Jesus, when we let Jesus move, work and speak through us, what chance does Satan have?

The power and authority that Jesus gives us is spiritual and delegated. It is from God, it is supernatural and spiritual. What is more, it is delegated. To delegate means to act for another. It means to authorize and send (another person) as one's representative. It means to commit or entrust to another or delegate a task to a subordinate.

so when does the nobleman reward the servants for their work with authority, when he leaves or when he returns in Luke 19.
 
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claninja

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What kind of question is this? Do you think it's referring to a literal altar and that Christ sits on a literal throne in heaven? I don't. Heaven itself is His throne (Isaiah 66:1). I believe the altar and His throne are only symbolic references and not literal.

no, I believe both situations a are symbolic, however, they are still both completely different symbolic situations for the saints.

but I still have to ask, you believe the souls of the saint being symbolically under the alter, crying out and resting for a little while longer is the same as the souls of the saints living and Reigning with Christ?

I did the next best thing, but I guess you don't care about that.

right, next best thing, but not what I asked..


I never agreed that Ephesians 2:6 and Revelation 20:4 are about the same thing, so you must have misunderstood me.

on another thread you agreed my position that revelation 20:4 was and allusion to Ephesians 2:6. Maybe that is where my misunderstanding is. If so I apologize.

so it seem you believe Ephesians 2:6 is simply spiritual and revelation 20:4 is the literal as a result.

while i disagree still, i won’t push this any further.
 
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Bob_1000

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absolutely agree Jesus reigns now. He is nobleman who went to a far away country to receive a kingdom. However, My goal here is to address when the servants receive authority for the works they have done. In Luke 19:12 it’s when the nobleman returns, not when he leaves.
You do realize that the nobleman that went to a far country is God the father, not God the son. When the time of the fruit drew near God the Father sent his Son and they KILLED his son when he came.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
 
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ShineyDays2

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It is not "my" future millennium. It is what is in the bible.
The word "millennium" is not anywhere in the Bible. The 1,000 years in Rev. 20 is representative of a period of a thousand years when calculated from the traditional date of the birth of Christ. There are other OT uses that indicates a figurative usage of "a thousand"....

"Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, (Deu 7:9)

"He is mindful of his covenant for ever, of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
(1 Ch 16:15)

"He is mindful of his covenant for ever, of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,(Psa 105:8)

"If one wished to contend with him, one could not answer him once in a thousand times. (Job 9:3)
For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.
(Psa 50:10)

"With mighty chariotry, twice ten thousand, thousands upon thousands, the Lord came from Sinai into the holy place. (Psa 68:17)

"For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand elsewhere. (Psa 84:10)

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.
(Psa 90:4)

"A thousand shall flee at the threat of one, at the threat of five you shall flee, till you are left like a flagstaff on the top of a mountain, like a signal on a hill. (Isa 30:17)

"But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba'al." (Rom 11:4)

"But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2Pe 3:8)

And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, (Rev 7:4)

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, (Rev 20:2)
Clearly, "a thousand" year "millennium" has already passed.
 
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claninja

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You do realize that the nobleman that went to a far country is God the father, not God the son. When the time of the fruit drew near God the Father sent his Son and they KILLED his son when he came.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

interesting perspective. But didn’t Christ receive the kingdom when he ascended to God?
 
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claninja

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I can't comment on that because it leads to conclusions that are not allowed on this forum.

lets try this.

1.) did the disciples see Christ ascend to heaven?

2.) did Christ “sit down on a throne” when he went to heaven?

3.) Did Christ say he would return?
 
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Bob_1000

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Spiritual Jew

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It is not "my" future millennium. It is what is in the bible.

Christians do not do animal sacrifices now, and will not do them in the millennium.
So, why do you believe that Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled in the future then? It refers to the requirement of keeping the feast of tabernacles and that involves performing animal sacrifices.
 
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claninja

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sovereigngrace

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so when does the nobleman reward the servants for their work with authority, when he leaves or when he returns in Luke 19.

I believe the reward of ruling over particular cities is spiritual and relates to the eternal state. It is not talking about ruling over the nations now. That occurs at the second coming. I have showed evidence above how we are seated in heavenly places now and reign in life and in death. That is because we are in Christ. He is the head we are the body.
 
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Bob_1000

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so why wouldn’t that be the nobleman going to a far away country to receive a kingdom?




John 14:3, acts 1:11
The son is DOES NOT go to a far away country, the Father does. While the Father is off on a his journey he sends his Son and the servants kill the Father's son.

I can't comment on those passages because someone here complained about my posts and I was sent an Email advising me that the speech I was using is not allowed on this forum and I will respect that.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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no, I believe both situations a are symbolic, however, they are still both completely different symbolic situations for the saints.

but I still have to ask, you believe the souls of the saint being symbolically under the alter, crying out and resting for a little while longer is the same as the souls of the saints living and Reigning with Christ?
Of course those activities are not the same, but as I said before, I see no reason why they can't both be reigning with Christ and waiting for Him to avenge their blood. I don't believe it's saying they are just resting in the sense that they're just up there laying around doing nothing while waiting for Christ to avenge their blood, but that seems to be the way you interpret it.

right, next best thing, but not what I asked..
I did say that I didn't know of any verses that described the same thing in the same exact words. But, you don't seem to even appreciate that I made the effort to do the next best thing by showing verses that did have similar wording to part of Ephesians 2:6. That makes me wonder why I even bother talking to you.

on another thread you agreed my position that revelation 20:4 was and allusion to Ephesians 2:6. Maybe that is where my misunderstanding is. If so I apologize.
Please show me what I said exactly if you can. And give me a link to the post if you can. If you don't have that handy, don't worry about it.

so it seem you believe Ephesians 2:6 is simply spiritual and revelation 20:4 is the literal as a result.
Yes.
I believe Ephesians 2:6 is about the same thing described in Ephesians 2:4-5, which relates to spiritual salvation while we're still alive. I believe the souls of those who are spiritually saved when they physically die go to be with Christ in heaven and reign with Him there and that is what Rev 20:4 is about.

while i disagree still, i won’t push this any further.
Good. I'm not interested in continuing to talk about this any longer, anyway.
 
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The son is DOES NOT go to a far away country, the Father does. While the Father is off on a his journey he sends his Son and the servants kill the Father's son.
No, the nobleman is the Son and He goes to a far country, heaven, to receive a kingdom from the Father. Why can't you discern that it's talking about Jesus ascending to heaven to receive His kingdom?

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
 
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Timtofly

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The millennial kingdom is for believers in Christ, who else would be doing the sacrifices?
The church is reigning now. That is the fault with Amil. The Millennium is not about the church at all. The Millennium will not prohibit the church reigning in Paradise. Paradise will not be on earth until after the 1000 years, and comes to earth as the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is not on earth during the Millennium iron rod rule of the Messiah the Prince.

Any sacrifices will be on earth by humanity living on earth, not the church still in Paradise.

Can any Amil explain how the church has non stop served in the Heavenly temple that has an alter day and night where obviously humans do not need sacrifices in Paradise?

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

This has been ongoing since the Cross.
 
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Douggg

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Clearly, "a thousand" year "millennium" has already passed.
"a thousand" year "a thousand year" millennium.

There are 395 instances of a thousand in the bible.

There are two instances of a thousand years in the bible. Neither of which support the Amil position.

The 70 years of Jeremiah 25 is biblical proof that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 are literal.
 
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Douggg

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The millennial kingdom is for believers in Christ, who else would be doing the sacrifices?
The kingdom of God will be the ruling kingdom over the nations (other kingdoms). Which Jesus will be ruling with a rod of iron.

It is debatable if and why animal sacrifices of the Mt. Sinai covenant will be done at that time.

There will be persons living in the 1000 years who are not Christians. That after the thousand years end, a great multitude comes up against the camp of the saints - Israel - deceived by Satan one last time to do so. That suggests the number of non-Christians in the world during the millennium, borne into the world during the thousand years, will be very large.
 
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Douggg

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So, why do you believe that Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled in the future then? It refers to the requirement of keeping the feast of tabernacles and that involves performing animal sacrifices.
The Jews (Judaism) observe the feast of tabernacles right now. While the temple is not standing, prayers replace the animal sacrifices, is what their position is based on some verses in the bible.

Whether animals sacrifices will be done or not in the future feast of tabernacles is not stated in Zechariah 14.
 
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