Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

claninja said:

revelation associates the giving of authority to the overcoming believer with Christ’s coming:

Revelation 2:25-26
25Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,

Christ stated rewards are given at his coming

revelation 22:12
Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

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The Righterzpen said:

The question raised was about Revelation 3:21 and this is the answer / (clarification of question) I gave:



So.... "will give" and "to sit" isn't even called a "reward" in that passage. That passage is about when does a believer who's overcome "given" "to sit"? That happens at death. (They sit because the work is done.) That was the answer I gave you. That was not my opinion. That's what the text says.

And to that, this was the answer you gave:



And I addressed when does this stuff happen. (The text (Revelation 3:21) doesn't use the word "reward".) And here's the answer I gave to your response:



And to this, you asked:



And here's the answer I gave you; (The answer was to the question of when does a believer "sit down" because they overcame. And this passage in Matthew addresses "siting down" and that's why I quoted it.



And to this, you responded:





And to that, I responded:





And to that, this was your response:



Now were you just confused as to the direction of the conversation between us; because there were so many other people / directions in this thread?

Again though, Revelation 3:21 never uses the word "reward", nor does it talk about "authority over nations". I addressed "will give" and "to sit" and therefore I gave you other verses that also talk about "will give" and "to sit".

Now as to your quote of Revelation 22:12? That passage isn't talking about the reward a believer receives. Just like God told Abram "I'm your shield and your exceeding great reward"; The reward Christ gets are the people he atoned for. That passage "I come and my reward with me"; is speaking of Christ coming in His glory and the people who've already died, He's bringing with Him, so when their bodies are raised, they become whole entities again.

Now "to give each one according as he has done"?

In the Greek, this has an interesting rendering. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." The phrase "to give" is 2nd aorist active infinitive. (Which is the same verb tense as "to give" in "to sit" in Revelation 3:21.) "Shall be" is future indicative, yet the Greek word "shall be" is also translated "will be", "shall have" and "shall come to pass". So what "shall come to pass" is the work that the believer does.

Now because Jesus is addressing believers who are on earth and who haven't died yet; the "as his work" that "shall be" is future tense. That "work" "shall come to pass".

Now, the way the verb tenses are; this does not appear to be a "reward" for "work" believers "did". The work believers are given to do while on earth, is the work of Christ. Which I think is what is accounted for in the odd phrasing "... to give every man according as his work shall be". The work individual believers do, is assigned by Christ. And because Jesus is addressing believers still on earth who "will over come" the "...according as his work shall be" is rendered in future tense, because "the work" is performed in the context of "will over come". And so thus of those who've already died; Jesus's reward is with Him, which He brings "with Him" on Judgement Day.

Now Revelation 4:4 talks about 24 elders who receive gold crowns which verse 10 says that they cast those crowns before God's throne saying: "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Which makes contextual sense with Revelation 22:12 Jesus brings His reward with Him.

Now as to your quote of Revelation 2:25-26?

This also is addressing people who are still alive on earth when Christ returns in glory. Yet the portion of this phrase "And to the one who overcomes and continues in my work until the end". Again, the context here is that they are still bound by time; because time on earth hasn't ended yet. This is why Jesus says: "until the end". Up until the end; believers have "authority over nations".

Now what does that mean? It means believers have "authority over nations" "until the end"; because in preaching the gospel, people come out of the kingdom of Satan, into the Kingdom of God. Their "coming into the Kingdom of God" though; is happening when they are still alive. They too then; "have authority over nations", because they too now are preaching the gospel and other people are coming out of the kingdom of Satan and into the Kingdom of God.

Their "reward" isn't "authority over nations" because they possess that while alive on earth through preaching the gospel. Note verses 27 and 28.

27 And he shall rule them (nations) with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

Now what do these verses mean? Compare them to Revelation 12:5. That verse talks about the "man child" who was "to rule the nations with a rod of iron". Thus the phrase in Revelation 2:27 "...even as I have received of my Father." Again, the work believers do is given to them by Christ; (who had received his own "marching orders" from the Father). When does Jesus "break the nations with a rod of iron"? Again, the work given to believers; which is to plunder the kingdom of Satan by preaching the gospel that sinners come to repent and believe.

Now what does "I will give him the morning star." mean? "Give" here is also translated "grant", "deliver up", "commit". It entails the idea of to grant authority over. Give here is also in the future tense, as is "shall rule". They are both future active indicative. Which again is predicated on "overcome and keep my works to the end". (The end of what? = the end of time as it relates to the life of the individual believer. Despite the "return with His reward" is at the recreation of the cosmos. I.E. "that" end.)

So who is the "morning star" that's "delivered up" to the believer by Christ? Now Revelation 22:16 Jesus calls Himself "the bright and morning star". But in the context of this "breaking the nations"; I don't believe He is referring to Himself.

Isaiah 14:12 is often referred to as Lucifer being the Hebrew for "morning star". Which is interesting that "morning star" reference is used for both Jesus and Satan. Now why that is? I'm not 100% sure; I haven't dove down that "Bible rabbit hole". Although I suspect there is more than one answer to that question; as there appears to be some connection to Adam created in the image of God (Jesus) related to the fall of Satan. Assuming Lucifer was the "covering cherub" to be "the cover" of the "darkness that was upon the face of the deep"; meaning it was his original job to protect creation from being invaded by "the darkness". Yet when Lucifer decided to utilize the power of the darkness for his own glorification; he was "ripped off" as the "covering cherub" and cast into that pit. And now Jesus who is the Redeemer from sin that resulted from that escaping "darkness" has now become the "cover" for sin. (At least that to me, is what appears to be the connection; although, like I said; I suspect there's more than one answer to why they are both called "morning star".)

So Jesus being the "covering" for sin; gives authority to believers over Satan to plunder his kingdom. And this seems to be a logical conclusion, as to what Revelation 2:28 means.

So the amillennial says:
The "reward" believers receive (which is "to see Him as He is" because they've been freed from their sin and fallen nature in death. I.E. the "reward" they receive in (context of "seeing Him as He is") upon death is Christ; despite the fact that they've previously "received" him unto salvation while yet alive. Thus why He told Abram "I'm your shield" (in this life) "and your exceeding great reward" (in the next).

The premillennial says: "at the resurrection". What does the Scripture say?
I think more importantly, what does the Scripture define as "the reward"? (Think I've pretty well covered that!) One thing I find... maybe ironic?? A lot of people tend to perceive "rewards" in a carnal context of "what they did for Christ". When in reality; the work believers do; they do because Christ has ordained it predicated upon Him have atoned for their sin. Thus casting their crowns to the throne of God because He is worthy.

After all; this was all "His gig" to begin with!

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claninja said:

Absolutely agreed.




as a preterist, I absolutely agree.




Right, we were spiritually blessed in past tense, because we were chose before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence.

While we were predestined for adoption as sons, the adoption of sons was still future for Paul

ephesians 1:5-6 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Here are some present tense spiritual blessings we have received because of the Cross. We can confirm with other scriptures, that our sins have been forgiven and we been redeemed already.

Ephesians 1:7-8 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ

In the same paragraph, Paul claims we have obtained an inheritance, and yet it is still future until we acquire possession of it.

Ephesians 1:11-14 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Notice, that Paul states we have been translated into the kingdom of the son, and when does Christ state the saints take possession of the kingdom?

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

**My point being, the promises and inheritance have been guaranteed by the Spirit until we take possession. In other words, Christ, as mankind's new representative has claimed the promises/inheritance and sent the spirit as our guarantee of these promises until he comes to reward the faithful saints that overcome. THUS, paul talks about the promises in the past tense (in that Christ, the new head of mankind replacing adam, has obtained them and sent the spirit) and future (while guaranteed these promises, we await for him to reward the faithful, overcoming saints at the resurrection).



Agreed. But when do we actually attain possession of "sitting" in heaven with Christ on His throne, and reigning over the nations?





Right, but Christ was bodily resurrected and ascended to heaven to sit on throne. So when does that happen to the believer?

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claninja said:

right, but when are we actually awarded with sitting down on Christ’s throne and reigning over the nations?

Christ received all authority over heaven and earth AFTER his resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 18And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Christ was given all authority and dominion and power and glory, and was seated in heaven AFTER his resurrection.

Ephesians 1:20-21
20that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.


Christ received the kingdom AFTER his resurrection.

Luke 19:12
12He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

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DavidPT said:

Is what Amils, such us yourself, basically saying, that once Jesus returns all this power He was given, He no longer uses it after He has returned, but only uses it from the time it was given to Him to the time He returns?

Per the parable in Luke 19 involving giving authority over cities, in your view is that something He does before the time of the GWTJ or after that time? Try to not ignore this question I just asked since it is a valid question. If before the time of the GWTJ, where does He do this, since Amils, such as yourself, literally have the entire earth engulfed in flames, therefore no habital place for Him to even return to.

What is the point of giving authority over cities, whatever that might mean, if there are no cities remaining when He returns because they were burned up with the rest of the planet? What are meant by cities in this parable? Why is one being given authority over cities, not while He is away, but once He returns?

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