What was Paul's outline when he unpacked the Gospel for unbelievers?

BrotherJJ · Nov 8, 2021

Fred Akers said:
I don't see how Romans 10 is connected

I hoped (MY NOTE) on Rom 10:9-10-11 highlighted how.

I'll give extra context here

Rom 10:
8 The word is near you, even in your mouth, & in your heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach
(MY NOTE: The word of Faith is in your mouth/confession)

9 If you will confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord, & and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
(MY NOTE: ""Confess" out loud your belief/Faith that Jesus is Lord/Messiah/Sin Savior. ""Believe"" with all your being that Christ was ""Raised"" from the dead)

10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(NOTE: Our belief/faith in Christ leads to our righteousness/right standing before God. Our public confession leads to salvation/eternal life)

11 For the scripture says, Whoever believes on Jesus shall not be ashamed.
(Whoever BELIEVES! Places their FAITH & CONFESSION in Jesus sin atoning work!)

12 There is no difference between the Jew & the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him
(MY NOTE: Paul's gospel is applicable to Jew or non-Jew)

13 Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
(NOTE: Confess that Jesus died for your sins & that God raised him from the grave & you shall/will be saved)

I also shared Rom 3:25 ,1 Jn 4:10 & 1 Cor 15:1-4 with my 1st reply

Fred Akers · Nov 8, 2021

d taylor said:
You are missing the point of this verse, this verse is not an evangelical verse to unbelievers. But a verse stating that to be able to know God a person must first become a believer (born again child of God). Then this believer is in a position to know God in their experience (on a personal level) by abiding in Jesus.

The reason this is an evangelical verse is that Jesus directly ties knowing him and knowing his Father with salvation.

d taylor · Nov 8, 2021

Fred Akers said:
Aren't you forgetting the verses that talk about demons once being a part of God and then making the choice to rebel against him? What you may be saying may be true, but is it the entire truth for all demons for all times?

I believe you are seeing demons as fallen angels.

I do not believe this, i believe fallen angels are fallen angels who gave birth to the nephilim in Genesis 6. The spirits of the nephilim who died in the flood are demons. Demons were never part of God, they were born fallen as they were offspring of the fallen angels.

Fred Akers · Nov 8, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
I hoped (MY NOTE) on Rom 10:9-10-11 highlighted how.

I'll give extra context here

Rom 10:
8 The word is near you, even in your mouth, & in your heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach
(MY NOTE: The word of Faith is in your mouth/confession)

9 If you will confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord, & and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
(MY NOTE: ""Confess" out loud your belief/Faith that Jesus is Lord/Messiah/Sin Savior. ""Believe"" with all your being that Christ was ""Raised"" from the dead)

10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(NOTE: Our belief/faith in Christ leads to our righteousness/right standing before God. Our public confession leads to salvation/eternal life)

11 For the scripture says, Whoever believes on Jesus shall not be ashamed.
(Whoever BELIEVES! Places their FAITH & CONFESSION in Jesus sin atoning work!)

12 There is no difference between the Jew & the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him
(MY NOTE: Paul's gospel is applicable to Jew or non-Jew)

13 Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
(NOTE: Confess that Jesus died for your sins & that God raised him from the grave & you shall/will be saved)

Ok, the verses are all well and good. Demons have confessed Jesus was Lord, demons believe that Jesus was raised from the dead . . . demons don't believe that they are being saved by their belief leading to righteousness and a right standing before God . . . what I am saying is that Romans 10:9-13 does not give us a full picture of salvation anymore than Matthew 26:47-56 gives a full picture of Jesus' arrest. We need Mark 14:43-52, Luke 22:47-53, and John 18:2-12 to give us all the information of Jesus' arrest. Likewise, Jesus and the Holy Spirit scatter several verses on acceptable things that must accompany a person's salvation (Luke 9:23, John 17:3, 1 John 4:7-8 along with a host of other verses saying the same things).

I appreciate your contribution to my question . . . . please see my above post. I am wanting to discuss with those who accept my premise that salvation must include verses like Luke 9:23 as a pre-requisite for salvation as well as John 17:3. My question centers around an initial gospel message that will lead people not only to believe in Jesus but have a love for him as well which will separate us from merely the same belief demons have.

Fred Akers · Nov 8, 2021

d taylor said:
I believe you are seeing demons as fallen angels.

I do not believe this, i believe fallen angels are fallen angels who gave birth to the nephilim in Genesis 6. The spirits of the nephilim who died in the flood are demons. Demons were never part of God, they were born fallen as they were offspring of the fallen angels.

Satan is from the Nephilim?

d taylor · Nov 8, 2021

Fred Akers said:
Satan is from the Nephilim?

never said that.

Fred Akers · Nov 8, 2021

d taylor said:
never said that.

Well would love to get in deeper with you on this question, but it is not what I want to discuss on this post. Will look for another post to discuss with you on this. Could you direct me to such a post? Thank you for your response.

d taylor · Nov 8, 2021

Fred Akers said:
Well would love to get in deeper with you on this question, but it is not what I want to discuss on this post. Will look for another post to discuss with you on this. Could you direct me to such a post? Thank you for your response.

There have been quite a few discussions on this subject at christian forums, not sure which one to really direct you to.

But hear is a link to a article about this subject.

The Sons of God and Great Wickedness (Genesis 6:1-8; 2 Peter 2:4) – Grace Evangelical Society

Fred Akers · Nov 8, 2021

RDKirk said:
As @Royal Faith pointed out, Paul used the context of his audience.

I believe that the early chapters of Romans is a text version of the debates he had in Jewish synagogues with people who already knew the Old Testament and believed in the God of Abraham.

Acts 17 gives us a clue to how he approached total pagans who knew nothing about the God of Abraham. Paul used his knowledge of certain of their own poets and philosophers who had stumbled upon monotheism through their observation of creation (as, apparently, did Job).

Paul did not spend any time trying to change their pagan creation theories, however, before he got right to "Christ, and Him crucified." As shown in Acts 17, Paul went immediately to Christ...be he started with the truth that they could see in nature.

That's why it's important as well to consider John 6:44, John 6:45, and Romans 1:18-25. The gospel is not going to be accepted by everyone regardless how much you debate them, and it will be accepted by everyone who is enabled by the Father to accept it without much debate.

It's not necessary to make anyone believe in Genesis before giving them the gospel.

Ok, yes, I totally agree with everything you have here. I come from a faith tradition that says, if it meant to be it is up to me, and it has taken me many years to break myself emotionally from that in my evangelism, although there is a strain of that thought that still persists. Your scriptures are spot on and your comments are well said and I thank you.

I am struck by Paul's use of nature in reaching those outside of the orbit of scripture influence as you mention in Acts 17. Do you have some sources I could look at in using nature to communicate the gospel? Also, could we say that the biblical definition of the gospel is deeper than just good news, that it is Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection? This is ringing true to me per 1 Cor 15:1-4. The Gospel strictly defined as good news never was fully adequate for me in capturing its meaning. Jesus death, burial, and resurrection has the promise to me of much more meaning and more befitting of a classic definition of such an important term as 'The Gospel'. The gospel certainly is good news, but the quality of the phrase 'good news' speaks to me more of as the result of the content (DBR) being understood in men's hearts rather than being the shallow content that the simple phrase 'good news' portends. Many things are good news, but there is only one Death, Burial, and Resurrection as defined by our Lord and Savior.

This is quite honestly why I have come to this forum. I would like to develop better content in my gospel presentation, ideally to pattern it after Paul's content delivery.

Fred Akers · Nov 8, 2021

d taylor said:
There have been quite a few discussions on this subject at christian forums, not sure which one to really direct you to.

But hear is a link to a article about this subject.

The Sons of God and Great Wickedness (Genesis 6:1-8; 2 Peter 2:4) – Grace Evangelical Society

Ok perfect, thank you, I will check it out.

klutedavid · Nov 8, 2021

Fred Akers said:
I am saying there has to be a differentiation explained between our belief in God and the demons belief in God and that differentiation is our belief must be coupled with the knowledge of Jesus that leads us to loving Jesus . . . 1 John 4:7-8 (Knowing Jesus, Loving Jesus, and being born again are synonymous to John). Back to my question . . . I think Paul's message got people to yes, believe Jesus, but to also come to know him to the point of loving him. I want to discuss what that message might have been to achieve that.

I know exactly what your saying.

Is this your fundamental doctrine, the platform on which you stand?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Just answer yes/no.

klutedavid · Nov 8, 2021

Fred Akers said:
John 17:3 and 1 John 4:7-8 is the reason for my salvation which encompasses Romans 10:9-11 as a pre-requisite. 80% of the people I meet believe in Jesus. Very few of those follow Jesus and are his disciples. Back to my question that is getting laser focused thanks to these discussions, what is the message Paul preached to get people to believe Jesus, know Jesus, and to love Jesus, differentiating their belief from demonic belief?

Your confused.

The gospel, 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 10:9-11, is the reason any Christian will be saved.

The qualification is that lifelong belief in Jesus. Everything else is the icing on the cake, not the reason for our salvation. Jesus died on the cross to reconcile you, to forgive you. It is only through the blood of Christ that we can be transferred to heaven.

Fred Akers · Nov 8, 2021

klutedavid said:
I know exactly what your saying.

Is this your fundamental doctrine, the platform on which you stand?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Just answer yes/no.

Dont believe coming to know jesus or loving jesus is a work . . .so yes, we are saved by grace alone which is accessed by saving faith . . . My answer is orthodoxy

Fred Akers · Nov 8, 2021

klutedavid said:
Your confused.

The gospel, 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 10:9-11, is the reason any Christian will be saved.

The qualification is that lifelong belief in Jesus. Everything else is the icing on the cake, not the reason for our salvation. Jesus died on the cross to reconcile you, to forgive you. It is only through the blood of Christ that we can be transferred to heaven.

I am not confused.

Scripture says we are saved by obeying the gospel. The scripture also says the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of jesus christ. I am almost to the point where somehow to obey the gospel, we need to somehow obey the death, burial, and resurrection of jesus christ, but I'm not exactly sure what that would mean. This is what I think I need to learn, hence asking questions here.

klutedavid · Nov 8, 2021

Fred Akers said:
I am not confused.

Scripture says we are saved by obeying the gospel. The scripture also says the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of jesus christ. I am almost to the point where somehow to obey the gospel, we need to somehow obey the death, burial, and resurrection of jesus christ, but I'm not exactly sure what that would mean. This is what I think I need to learn, hence asking questions here.

You can't obey the deeper instruction of the apostles, until you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You must receive the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, to embark on a life of love.

You cannot receive the Holy Spirit until you first believe in Jesus.

It is a step by step process.

Yet the gospel remains the same and always will be Romans 10:9-11 and 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:14
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

prophecy_uk · Nov 9, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
I believe Paul's outline is that it was Jesus faithful obedient sin atoning work that paid for & conquered sin. And our faith place in it/Him whereby a believer is forgiven/saved

Rom 3:25 “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”

1 Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by "faith of Jesus Christ" unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(NOTE: The Faith "OF" Christ)

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the "faith of the Son of God", who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(NOTE: We live by the faith "OF" the Son of God, who loved us, and gave himself as a sin sacrifice for us)

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by "faith of Jesus Christ" might be given to them that believe.
(NOTE: The promise by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ. Then our Faith placed in Christ's work)

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by "faith of Jesus Christ" unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(NOTE: The Faith "OF" Christ)

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the "faith of the Son of God", who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(NOTE: We live by the faith "OF" the Son of God, who loved us, and gave himself as a sin sacrifice for us)

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by "faith of Jesus Christ" might be given to them that believe.
(NOTE: The promise by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ. Then our Faith placed in Christ's work)

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but "that which is through the "faith of Christ", the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(NOTE: Not by our own righteousness obtained thru law keeping. BUT thru the faith "OF" Christ)

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but "the just shall live by his faith".
(NOTE: The just live by "HIS" faith!)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the "faith of Jesus Christ", even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the "faith of Christ" and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(NOTE: It's the Faith "OF" Christ & thru the righteousness of Christ's obedient works. That when we place our faith in Him & His work. Christ becomes the Lord our righteousness (Jer 23:6 & 33:16). And God judicially justifies us ="Declares us Righteous in His sight)

Not all men have faith to place in Christ, faith is given to every man when God gives the gift of grace and faith..

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

prophecy_uk · Nov 9, 2021

Fred Akers said:
I am not confused.

Scripture says we are saved by obeying the gospel. The scripture also says the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of jesus christ. I am almost to the point where somehow to obey the gospel, we need to somehow obey the death, burial, and resurrection of jesus christ, but I'm not exactly sure what that would mean. This is what I think I need to learn, hence asking questions here.

Loosing our life is finding it again. John 12:24-26.

Jesus left Heaven to come to the earth, ( but the Son of man was always in Heaven, ( John 3:13) that is loosing the position of Heaven to be made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death for us all, and prayed to return to the glory which He had with the Father.

So God was then manifested to the world in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, ( the just Lord does no iniquity but the unjust knows no shame, ( Zephaniah 3:5) and the Spirit did greater than the flesh ) angels ministering unto Him and the little ones saw Him, God was preached unto the Gentiles, to be believed on in the world, and received up to glory, glorified with the glory which He had always wit the Father, as the Son and the Father are one and the Son was crowned with glory and honour and by the grace of God tasted death for every man, and they then taste His death and resurrection..

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

prophecy_uk · Nov 9, 2021

RDKirk said:
As @Royal Faith pointed out, Paul used the context of his audience.

I believe that the early chapters of Romans is a text version of the debates he had in Jewish synagogues with people who already knew the Old Testament and believed in the God of Abraham.

Acts 17 gives us a clue to how he approached total pagans who knew nothing about the God of Abraham. Paul used his knowledge of certain of their own poets and philosophers who had stumbled upon monotheism through their observation of creation (as, apparently, did Job).

Paul did not spend any time trying to change their pagan creation theories, however, before he got right to "Christ, and Him crucified." As shown in Acts 17, Paul went immediately to Christ...be he started with the truth that they could see in nature.

That's why it's important as well to consider John 6:44, John 6:45, and Romans 1:18-25. The gospel is not going to be accepted by everyone regardless how much you debate them, and it will be accepted by everyone who is enabled by the Father to accept it without much debate.

It's not necessary to make anyone believe in Genesis before giving them the gospel.

Paul spoke to Pagans, who like the Jews, had a feeling toward the God who created the world.

This is because the ones who sought not the Lord, found the Lord, as it is by grace.

Paul cannot use his knowledge of Pagans as anything to do with Gods grace, it is example of the opposite, how by grace alone they were being called, to do like Matthew, James and John and Peter, to drop all they had, all they were, and to follow Jesus.

Hearing the word of faith, when the time to give the faith, has the people who hear, believe, because the Spirit which is given for them to believe with gives life, and light, gives the heart to understand, and to know all the previous stuff they were compared to, now are nothing.

prophecy_uk · Nov 9, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
I hoped (MY NOTE) on Rom 10:9-10-11 highlighted how.

I'll give extra context here

Rom 10:
8 The word is near you, even in your mouth, & in your heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach
(MY NOTE: The word of Faith is in your mouth/confession)

9 If you will confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord, & and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
(MY NOTE: ""Confess" out loud your belief/Faith that Jesus is Lord/Messiah/Sin Savior. ""Believe"" with all your being that Christ was ""Raised"" from the dead)

10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(NOTE: Our belief/faith in Christ leads to our righteousness/right standing before God. Our public confession leads to salvation/eternal life)

11 For the scripture says, Whoever believes on Jesus shall not be ashamed.
(Whoever BELIEVES! Places their FAITH & CONFESSION in Jesus sin atoning work!)

12 There is no difference between the Jew & the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him
(MY NOTE: Paul's gospel is applicable to Jew or non-Jew)

13 Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
(NOTE: Confess that Jesus died for your sins & that God raised him from the grave & you shall/will be saved)

I also shared Rom 3:25 ,1 Jn 4:10 & 1 Cor 15:1-4 with my 1st reply

But Godliness is a mystery, it is answered in knowing the words of the faith, such as, how do they believe without hearing, and not all obeyed the Gospel.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God, and calling is by a hearing ear and seeing eyes, and with the right Spirit ( of truth) to call with, not the false one they swear with and do iniquity with..

Psalm 145:18 The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

Isaiah 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Fred Akers · Nov 9, 2021

klutedavid said:
You can't obey the deeper instruction of the apostles, until you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You must receive the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, to embark on a life of love.

You cannot receive the Holy Spirit until you first believe in Jesus.

It is a step by step process.

Yet the gospel remains the same and always will be Romans 10:9-11 and 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:14
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Yes to be safe we need to believe in the gospel but to be safe we also need to obey the gospel

klutedavid said:
You can't obey the deeper instruction of the apostles, until you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You must receive the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, to embark on a life of love.

You cannot receive the Holy Spirit until you first believe in Jesus.

It is a step by step process.

Yet the gospel remains the same and always will be Romans 10:9-11 and 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:14
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Yes to be saved we need to believe in the gospel. But we all need to obey the gospel as well. Since the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus how do you obey the death burial and resurrection of Jesus?

What was Paul's outline when he unpacked the Gospel for unbelievers?

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