Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Der Alte

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What I'd like to know is...what is the difference between a "hobgoblin" and a mere goblin?
In similar fashion, we have "hell," aka hel, helle, hella, hille, hella, hellja, heljar and halja. The 1611 KJV has "hel" and "hell." "Beowulf has "hell," "hel" and "hella." Since "Beowulf" is set in Denmark, it is logical to look to the mythology of the pagan Norse and Danes for the origins of "hell." This easily found in the personage of "Hel," a goddess or ogress who was said to rule over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" (House of Hel). It was said to be where you went for eternity if you failed to die in battle and thus did not rate going to Valhalla. The threat of damnation goes all the way back, and it is not a pretty picture.
Again, about UR, what's not to like?
Not really relevant. What a word might have meant in another country, another culture, another language does not necessarily mean it has the same meaning in English. For example the word "hell" same spelling, same pronunciation in German means "bright" The word for hell in German is Hölle the ö sounds like the "e" in her.
Here is another word for illustration. When we hear "truck" we think of a large boxy vehicle for hauling heavy loads. "Truck" originally meant vegetables.
 
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Saint Steven

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What would you do with Hermeneutics and Exegesis since they're part and parcel of everything we Christians do when reading the Bible? You make it sound as if they're somehow magically dispensable, which is rather surprising since they're descriptively part and parcel of your neurological functions within your brain and an outcrop of the structures of human communication.
I'm not sure if that's an insult or a compliment. - lol
 
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Ceallaigh

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And we know that a lot of religious people make things up, don't we?

So, how should we deal with that? Throw away the benefits of education?

If not, you might need to say so because it almost sounds like that's the direction you're leaning toward.

I was only explaining what three words mean in layman's terms.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Not really relevant. What a word might have meant in another country, another culture, another language does not necessarily mean it has the same meaning in English. For example the word "hell" same spelling, same pronunciation in German means "bright" The word for hell in German is Hölle the ö sounds like the "e" in her.
Here is another word for illustration. When we hear "truck" we think of a large boxy vehicle for hauling heavy loads. "Truck" originally meant vegetables.

Same stock answer I have seen before, but your "The word for hell in German is Hölle the ö sounds like the "e" in her." would surely be very close to "helle" in my list of "hell" words. In contrast to what you say, some words seem to be recognizable as far back as we can trace them, such as "blood."
 
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Yeah, I already know it's much more than that. But, I'm not seeing your progressive exegetical steps in interpreting here. To me, it seems like you're just kind of sporadically reaching for and fitting together pieces of Scriptures to build your own little personal lego set castle. What are your steps in exegesis and hermeneutics by which you've reached your conclusions in regard to Pharisaical hypocrisy directly applying to those who hold to ECT (or any other view)?

The exegetical steps are as follows.
1. God promises Abraham that all the nations of the earth will be blessed (now that's a big one).
2. God promises Cyrus that every knee will bow and every tongue confess (another biggie, but played down by trad western theology - despite being reiterated twice by St Paul).
3. God sends in the Last Adam to reveal that He was never against us, and as representative of mankind whatever falls in Adam is raised up in Christ (that's the lifetime guarantee, sealed in holy blood - better than the folding stuff to Jews).
4. God actually does deliver in Kingdom come by resurrecting the dead in the final judgment, where the last enemy (death) will be defeated (leaving life remaining) and all things made new.
5. Rejoicing in plowshares and the riches of His Grace.

There's your Omega Plan lifecycle rollout: manufacture, supply, test, warranty, recall and repair. Good as gold, all in all. More than conquerors. All glory to the one true living God.

Now there's your reason to look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.
 
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Hmm

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What do I not like about UR? ...one thing is that it doesn't seem like it puts a important value upon the idea of repentance. It almost sounds like the ultimate 'get out of hell' free card for single people (men mainly) who can't get over their addictions. That, or it's the last pit stop for those already on their way out of the Christian Faith because they're just barely hanging on anyway.

That's is because you haven't got the hermeneutics right. Too much eisegesis. This strawman was addressed back in #1510 when we were young and optimistic:

Strawman: Universalists think that all roads lead to God
This is to confuse universalism (the view that God will one day save all people through Christ) with pluralism (the view that there are many paths to God and that Jesus is simply one of them). But Christian universalists deny pluralism. They insist that salvation is found only through the atoning work of Christ. Without Jesus nobody would be redeemed.

Now there is a disagreement between Christians, not only Universalists, about whether you need to have explicit faith in Jesus to be saved. Some Christians, called exclusivists, say Yes and others, called inclusivists, say No. So, for inclusivists you can be saved even if, for instance, you have never heard the gospel. Inclusivists would say that if someone responds in love and faith to the truncated divine revelation that they have received then God can unite them to Christ.

But we need to be careful not to confuse the discussion between exclusivists and inclusivists with the issue of universalism. Many people make that mistake. The former debate concerns how people can experience the salvation won by Christ while the latter concerns how many people will be saved. Two different questions.
 
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Ceallaigh

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What do I not like about UR? ...one thing is that it doesn't seem like it puts a important value upon the idea of repentance. It almost sounds like the ultimate 'get out of hell' free card for single people (men mainly) who can't get over their addictions. That, or it's the last pit stop for those already on their way out of the Christian Faith because they're just barely hanging on anyway.

By contrast that sounds like the only reason for repentance is to receive a get into heaven card - which seems to be the case with a lot of Christians. One thing I note about that is all the repentance that took place in the Old Testament, even though there's not a single mention of punishment of the soul in the afterlife in the OT that I know of
 
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Hmm

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By contrast that sounds like the only reason for repentance is to receive a get into heaven card - which seems to be the case with a lot of Christians. One thing I note about that is all the repentance that took place in the Old Testament, even though there's not a single mention of punishment of the soul in the afterlife in the OT that I know of

I agree, repentance, if it's sincere, is not about trying to secure a place in heaven. It's a turning away from sin and towards God. If you can do that in this life it's a great blessing but that doesn’t mean that God is going to lose anyone because eventually He will be all in all. That doesn’t that judgment is going to be pleasant. Repentance in this life can feel like hell. It's hard to learn to let go of your control and desire and hard to realise your own guilt. We don’t know what hell will be like but the Bible is clear, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord.
 
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I agree, repentance, if it's sincere, is not about trying to secure a place in heaven. It's a turning away from sin and towards God. If you can do that in this life it's a great blessing but that doesn’t mean that God is going to lose anyone because eventually He will be all in all. That doesn’t that judgment is going to be pleasant. Repentance in this life can feel like hell. It's hard to learn to let go of your control and desire and hard to realise your own guilt. We don’t know what hell will be like but the Bible is clear, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

What about my afterlife fire insurance policy? So what am I tithing for?
 
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Hmm

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What about my afterlife fire insurance policy? So what am I tithing for?

You are tithing for fire protection in this life. It's well worth the cost but if you are foolish and decide not to take it out you will be given the opportunity to take out the policy in the next. Please note, this may be at a much higher premium because of intensive fire damage sustained in this life so we advise you to act now
 
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You are tithing for fire protection in this life. It's well worth the cost but if you are foolish and decide not to take it out you will be given the opportunity to take out the policy in the next (which may be at a higher premium)

I had certainly better spend up on that gold refined in the fire and make the sacrifices of righteousness less I be trodden underfoot. Good to know we have total cover in the blood of Christ assurance policy.
 
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Hmm

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I had certainly better spend up on that gold refined in the fire and make the sacrifices of righteousness less I be trodden underfoot. Good to know we have total cover in the blood of Christ assurance policy.

Indeed. And the cost is light, just being nice to people for a change and entering into a loving relationship with God. What's not to like?
 
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Saint Steven

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I had certainly better spend up on that gold refined in the fire and make the sacrifices of righteousness less I be trodden underfoot. Good to know we have total cover in the blood of Christ assurance policy.
That reminds me of a joke you guys may have heard already. cc: @Hmm

A rich man made a deal with God to allow him to bring a suitcase into the afterlife with him. He was a good man, so God granted this exception. On his death bed the man gripped the suitcase tightly as he went into the other realm. He found himself standing at the Pearly Gates facing St. Peter at the entrance. "Something to declare?", Peter quipped. "Yes, God allowed me to bring one suitcase.", the man explained. "Let's see what you brought.", Peter said. The rich man proudly opened the suitcase to reveal that it was stuffed with gold bars of the highest quality. Peter sighed as he said, "You could have brought anything, but you chose to bring PAVEMENT! ???"
 
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Hmm

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That reminds me of a joke you guys may have heard already. cc: @Hmm

A rich man made a deal with God to allow him to bring a suitcase into the afterlife with him. He was a good man, so God granted this exception. On his death bed the man gripped the suitcase tightly as he went into the other realm. He found himself standing at the Pearly Gates facing St. Peter at the entrance. "Something to declare?", Peter quipped. "Yes, God allowed me to bring one suitcase.", the man explained. "Let's see what you brought.", Peter said. The rich man proudly opened the suitcase to reveal that it was stuffed with gold bars of the highest quality. Peter sighed as he said, "You could have brought anything, but you chose to bring PAVEMENT! ???"

:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:
 
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EmethAlethia

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Perhaps you are reading something into the text that isn't there? You obviously have a preconception of what it should mean.


Mat 25:46 "TheseG3778 will goG565 awayG565 into eternalG166 punishmentG2851, but the righteousG1342 into eternalG166 lifeG2222."


Mat 25:46  καιG2532 CONJ απελευσονταιG565 V-FDI-3P ουτοιG3778 D-NPM ειςG1519 PREP κολασινG2851 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF οιG3588 T-NPM δεG1161 CONJ δικαιοιG1342 A-NPM ειςG1519 PREP ζωηνG2222 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF 

Explain to me which αιωνιον is temporary and which is temporary in Greek and how you know the difference when used of heaven and hell in the exact same sentence? Here I thought elephant meant elephant, especially if used in the exact same sentence. Who knew it also meant pen?

Pick one single meaning for the exact same word. Are both heaven and hell eternal or are they both temporary. Perhaps you are reading meaning meaning into one and out of the other because you just don't like the truth of the singular meaning either way.
 
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Saint Steven

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Mat 25:46 "TheseG3778 will goG565 awayG565 into eternalG166 punishmentG2851, but the righteousG1342 into eternalG166 lifeG2222."


Mat 25:46  καιG2532 CONJ απελευσονταιG565 V-FDI-3P ουτοιG3778 D-NPM ειςG1519 PREP κολασινG2851 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF οιG3588 T-NPM δεG1161 CONJ δικαιοιG1342 A-NPM ειςG1519 PREP ζωηνG2222 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF 

Explain to me which αιωνιον is temporary and which is temporary in Greek and how you know the difference when used of heaven and hell in the exact same sentence? Here I thought elephant meant elephant, especially if used in the exact same sentence. Who knew it also meant pen?

Pick one single meaning for the exact same word. Are both heaven and hell eternal or are they both temporary. Perhaps you are reading meaning meaning into one and out of the other because you just don't like the truth of the singular meaning either way.
Here's what little I know about that.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
 
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Saint Steven

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Explain to me which αιωνιον is temporary and which is temporary in Greek and how you know the difference when used of heaven and hell in the exact same sentence? Here I thought elephant meant elephant, especially if used in the exact same sentence. Who knew it also meant pen?

Pick one single meaning for the exact same word. Are both heaven and hell eternal or are they both temporary. Perhaps you are reading meaning meaning into one and out of the other because you just don't like the truth of the singular meaning either way.
I agree that there should only be only one meaning for the same word. (not two)

And I imagine that you have the same concerns I had when I realized that if "hell" wasn't eternal, then neither is life eternal. The good news is that one age follows another. The age of restoration will end. But the ages of life will continue. As I understand it. Does that help?
 
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EmethAlethia

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Why?
How many ages are needed for correction? (hopefully only one will be needed)
How many ages are needed for heaven? (hopefully one age will lead to the next)

Saint Steven said:
That's a great point.
Here's what I know about that. Both will be for an age. However the correction will only be for one age. Life will go on for endless ages. One age follows another. Since the age of correction can be completed, it will end.

Sorry. Where do you get that. If one is for one age, so is the other. Changing meaning within the same sentence making one mean "one" period of time and the other a "different" number of periods of time is not in the text.

Enos or monocleno would be used as a clarifier of one or "single" if there were a difference.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm not sure if that's an insult or a compliment. - lol

It's neither. It's just a descriptive statement that applies to all of us.

But then again, Skeptic that I am, you can feel free to question it and show me how wrong I am.
 
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I was only explaining what three words mean in layman's terms.

I'm kind of think'n that you rely upon this "laymen's shield" a bit too much ...

... C'mon out of the box, MMXX! It's ok to step out into the sunlight of further education every now and then. ;)
 
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