Is God out to get us?

Saint Steven

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@Saint Steven I'm not doubting your salvation. I don't know. But if I may so ask, have you been born-again?
Yes, I have been born again. Born of the Spirit.
I've walked with the Lord nearly 60 years now. Thanks for asking.

I suppose all this UR "nonsense" sounds foreign to you. I get it. I was surprised and resistant when I first heard about it. So, your reaction is typical. You need to ask some questions.

Someone on this forum that I have a lot of respect for mentioned that he didn't believe in a forever burning hell. This was an issue in my family at the time it came up. So I wanted to know more.

I fought it initially, but was then encouraged to do my homework to understand it. Next thing I knew, I was defending it.

At this point I won't go back to the way I was. Life is much better on this side of God's love.

Let me know if you have more questions, thanks.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin
 
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Saint Steven

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I always wondered about that.
Did the very next guy that arrived find it empty?
"Wait!.... Hold the bus!!!"

But I suspect places like these are a bit "outside of time"
I suppose they did find it empty. - lol
That's a very interesting observation. Talk about missing your bus. Wow.
As you will recall, even the graves in Jerusalem were opened and the dead were revived and walked around. Something HUGE was going on. (the Temple veil was torn as well - top to bottom - wonder how they knew that?)

Saint Steven said:
Are you familiar with what is called the "Harrowing of Hell"?
 
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Petros2015

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(the Temple veil was torn as well - top to bottom - wonder how they knew that?)

Probably someone like Nicodemus; he might have even witnessed that I suppose or inspected it in the aftermath.

As you will recall, even the graves in Jerusalem were opened and the dead were revived and walked around.

Yes, I was talking with someone on another thread about the IELF™. But my brain eventually exploded. Feel free to jump in, just take some aspirin ahead of time ;) It does head some interesting places.

Has the transformation of physical bodies already happened?
 
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Mclachlan

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I suppose all this UR "nonsense" sounds foreign to you. I get it. I was surprised and resistant when I first heard about it. So, your reaction is typical. You need to ask some questions.
You have accurately expressed my feelings, 'typical.'
As you say it does sound nonsense, and I'm surprised and resistant to such a doctrine. Contrary to what you say, I do not need to ask any more questions about this doctrine— I'm confident in the gospel God has graciously handed to me.

Given the fact that we are in the unorthodox theology section of the board it is appropriate to doubt the legitimacy of your convictions, and so even you are entitled to doubt the doctrine I present, and reject it.

Either one of us are on the wrong side of Paul's words in Galatians 1.
I'll draw back now and God will reveal what he is willing to reveal to me and you in time.

May he have mercy on both of us, sinners.
 
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Saint Steven

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May he have mercy on both of us, sinners.
Indeed.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
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Either one of us are on the wrong side of Paul's words in Galatians 1.

That would be the Gospel as expressed in 1 Cor 15, would it not? The one that crescendos in v.28, the most futuristic prophecy in all of scripture.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I never understood why it's so hard for ppl to see that God's glory consists in ALL creation worshipping Him. There just has to be a whole pile of losers, doesn't there?

Well, he who thinks he stands best beware lest he fall.
 
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Clare73

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Pharaoh had the hardening of the heart (Rom 9:17-18), but why? For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:32). Jesus has the keys Clare, and holds the seven stars in his hand.

It's the relentless and unstoppable love of the Hound of Heaven. Don't be barking up the wrong tree with ECT.
I note the "might". . .sounds conditional to me. . .not like John 3:18 and John 3:36,
where "already" and "remains" are not "might."

According to the NT, it's not me that is barking up the wrong tree.

Let's not abuse "The Hound of Heaven" with such contra-NT doctrine.
 
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Andrewn

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What a comically sadistic fate that would be. God waking up the dead, only to deliver them to a fate far worse.
And this is exactly what the Lord said would happen:

Joh 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

By the way, no one doubts that the expression "to the ages of the ages" means "forever" in the following verse:

Rev 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Why assume that it means something different in the following verse:

Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
 
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I note the "might". . .sounds conditional to me. . .not like John 3:18 and John 3:36,
where "already" and "remains" are not "might."

Come on Clare, I urge you be strong in the Lord and in the power of His 'might.'
 
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Clare73

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Come on Clare, I urge you be strong in the Lord and in the power of His 'might.'
I'm so sorry the wrong meaning of words has to be employed to keep your doctrine afloat.

But a fella's gotta' do what a fella's gotta' do. :wave:
 
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And this is exactly what the Lord said would happen:

Joh 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

I don't see anything except you and some dodgy translators making assumptions.

The resurrection of judgment. Condemnation is a bit of an overreach on 'krisis', especially as Jesus continues to explain his judgment is just etc.

And the judgment is restorative not retributive. It may feel like retributive punishment for the punishee (like the Rich Man of the Lazarus parable/ story fame), but it's there to purify the sin and produce repentance and overcoming. In the extreme case it might well destroy the entire false identity of the sinner, but the spirit will be saved. That's kinda the point. If you can't settle on the road, you get out of jail after you've paid the uttermost farthing, saved though as through fire. Even Sodom and Gomorrah get a second chance to repent - but woe to you Capernaum.

By the way, no one doubts that the expression "to the ages of the ages" means "forever" in the following verse:

Rev 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Why assume that it means something different in the following verse:

Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Sure, I can't deny the plain sense of Rev 20:10 is that the devil and his homies never get paroled. Still, it doesn't stop me thinking that the scripture does not entirely close the door on the ultimate salvation of the the devil, as God makes 'all things new' so as to be 'all in all'...except you and you and you lol.

Why is it do you think that so many professing Xtians reject the idea that the victory of Christ consists in total conversion rather than total destruction of those who hate him?
 
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I'm so sorry the wrong meaning of words has to be employed to keep your doctrine afloat.

But a fella's gotta' do what a fella's gotta' do. :wave:

So you're telling me God wills but might not?
 
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Saint Steven

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... Given the fact that we are in the unorthodox theology section of the board it is appropriate to doubt the legitimacy of your convictions, and so even you are entitled to doubt the doctrine I present, and reject it. ...
No, this NOT the "unorthodox theology section", this is the Controversial Christian Theology area. This is a safe zone for discussions of Universalism according to the rules which state:

Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):
  • Annihilationism
  • Full Preterism
  • Open Theism
  • Universalism
Statement of Purpose - Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose
 
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I'm telling you what the text states.

Thanks, but I prefer to get the straight juice rather than the delinquent misinterpretation.

It is God's will that all shall be saved. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Isa 45:23; Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10; John 3:16-17; John 12:32; Eph 1:10)...the list goes on and on and on.
 
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Andrewn

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I don't see anything except you and some dodgy translators making assumptions. The resurrection of judgment. Condemnation is a bit of an overreach on 'krisis', especially as Jesus continues to explain his judgment is just etc. And the judgment is restorative not retributive.
So, you agree that some people are resurrected to judgment and that it was out of place for you to write, "What a comically sadistic fate that would be. God waking up the dead, only to deliver them to a fate far worse." And just in case you still hesitate to confess that there is judgment after resurrection of the body, I'll quote more verses:

Mat 10:28 Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he shall also drink the wine of God’s fury, poured full strength into the cup of His wrath. And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. Those who worship the beast and its image and those who receive the mark of his name have no rest day or night.”

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

Rev 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Sure, I can't deny the plain sense of Rev 20:10 is that the devil and his homies never get paroled.
So, you agree that there is nothing in the scripture to support your belief in salvation of the devils.
 
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So, you agree that some people are resurrected to judgment and that it was out of place for you to write, "What a comically sadistic fate that would be. God waking up the dead, only to deliver them to a fate far worse."

Divine judgment is not a fate worse than death. It is, as revealed in Christ, a judgment on death, a resurrection to the life aioniosness, potentially by way of kolasis. When was the last time you read the Book of Judges? They were the saviors and saviorettes of Israel.

Mat 10:28 Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

But He has every hair on your head counted, you're more valuable than a pair of wood ducks. By all means fear God, for there is none like Him and none above Him.

Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he shall also drink the wine of God’s fury, poured full strength into the cup of His wrath. And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. Those who worship the beast and its image and those who receive the mark of his name have no rest day or night.”

That's the big warning - worship the beast you'll get no rest, only toil and tribulation. Lesson? Don't believe the lie. Repent. And if you read on, you'll see even these fools get saved come Rev 21 and 22.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

That would be the Refiner's Fire, the Great Physician's final remedy. Hence the nations and kings of the earth return cleansed and repentant in Rev 21:24 for healing in Rev 22:2. The Pearly Gates stand ever-open for those who've washed in the ultimate laver (of which the Molten Sea and Pool of Bethesda are types), their scarlet sins white as wool after a good scrub with fuller's soap, all the nations singing 'We have overcome, by the blood of the Lamb!'

Rev 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

The death of cowardice, unbelief, abomination, murderous intent, immorality, sorcery and idolatry, and then the last enemy to be destroyed will be death itself as God makes everything new.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:27-28)

See how it all works together for the good?

So, you agree that there is nothing in the scripture to support your belief in salvation of the devils.

I agree. The devil doesn't get saved, a fallen angel repents. For God is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
 
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Clare73

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Thanks, but I prefer to get the straight juice rather than the delinquent misinterpretation.

It is God's will that all shall be saved. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Isa 45:23; Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10; John 3:16-17; John 12:32; Eph 1:10)...the list goes on and on and on.
What kind of juice is that pesky little situation of God having a will for Pharaoh other than the one he revealed to Pharaoh.
 
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