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LoveGodsWord

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I never said it was "always used" in the past. But it IS the generally used PAST tense form.
You missed the point. The aroist is not used to point out time in the subjunctive mood.
LoveGodsWord wrote: “Because this is the basic genius of the aorist, it can have a phenomenally wide range of usage. You can be looking at the action as a whole but paying special attention to the beginning (“ingressive”) or to the end (“consummative”). It can describes something that simply is regardless of any time reference (“gnomic”). But my favorite is to proleptic (futuristic) use of the aorist. Because time is secondary, the aorist can describe a future event and emphasize the certainty of the action. It is not a common usage, but it does show how we need to keep the idea of “time” in its proper place. Sometimes we will go to translate an aorist as a past tense and the result is just silly. Rev 10:7 says, “But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trump et the mystery of God will be accomplished (ἐτελέσθη), just as he announced to his servants the prophets” (NIV, NRSV is also future). ἐτελέσθη is aorist, but it obviously does not describe a past event. The NASB and HCSB go with the present, “is finished.” The ESV weakens it to the subjunctive, “would be fulfilled.” But my all-time favorite is the voice from heaven at Jesus’ baptism. “This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased (εὐδόκησα)” (Matt 3:17. NRSV). The aorist is not saying that God “was” pleased with Jesus (perhaps implying he was no longer pleased — that would be heresy), but that the sum total of his life, perhaps culminating in his humble submission to a sinner’s baptist, was pleasing to the Father.” (Source: Bill Mounce)
Your response here...
<yawn> Yep, I've got Mounce. I also have Wallace's WAY MORE complete "Greek Grammar" text.
Good then perhaps reading them should be helpful to our discussion. You did not respond to anything in this section of the post. It was posted because you seemed to be of the view that everytime you see an aroist use of a verb it means past tense when we were talking present tense application of John 3 and John 5 application to believing or not believing as a requirement to receiving everlasting life or not receiving everlasting life as shown in John 3:16-18; John 3:36; John 5:24.
There is no such thing as a "subjunctive aorist", as you presume.
No one said that there was. The subjunctive mood aorist is the verb form that is used to explore a hypothetical situation. I posted you a link in the last post did you read it? The subjunctive mood primarily refers to hypothetical actions in the present or the future, i.e., in the same time covered by the primary tenses of verbs. There are only three tenses of the subjunctive, each of which expresses aspect, not time. As shown earlier in the post you ignored the application of the aorist in the subjunctive mood is the same used in John 4:14 "whoever drinks".
The "subjunctive" deals with the MOOD, not the tense. Totally different. This is why it is hard to take you seriously. You claim things from ignorance.
Why try and twist what I am saying to something I have never said or perhaps you have a misunderstanding I do not know. The subjunctive however does deal with the mood and it does have application of course to the the tenses used (see previous section). As posted in the link provided earlier, the subjunctive mood primarily refers to HYPOTHETICAL actions in the PRESENT or FUTURE, i.e., in the same time covered by the PRIMARY tenses of verbs. There are only three tenses of the subjunctive, each of which expresses ASPECT, not time: PRESENT - ongoing aspect; AORIST - simple aspect; PERFECT - completed aspect. Since the subjunctive mood always refers to hypothetical events, it never has an augment.
What babble! The aorist is used to describe a simple point in time action. Do you understand what that means? It means to simply take a drink. That is a point in time action.
Not always and not in the subjunctive mood. Can you tell me what is the difference between the indicative mood's meaning and use of an aorist and the subjunctive meaning and use of an aroist? John 4:14 is not indicative to time but to hypothetical aspect.
And Jesus used the aorist with the water He gives to point out that from that SINGLE POINT IN TIME "drink" (or belief in Him) there will be NO MORE THIRST.
Here is where your mistake is. The subjunctive mood of the aorist is not in relation to time but to hypothetical aspect. The hypothetical aspect the aroist is being used in John 4:14 is to"whoever drinks" of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst"; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Jesus used the aorist to teach eternal security, just as He taught eternal security from John 10:28.
John 10:28 does not support once saved always saved. The context you leave out shows that those who those who receive eternal life are those who "believe and follow" what Gods' Word says. It is not saying that those who do not believe and follow what God's Word says receive eternal life. That interpretation of the scripture in a contradiction of the scriptures that warn us not to depart the faith and return to unbelief and known unrepentant sin in Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 3:8-19.
Again, there is NO SUCH THING AS A SUBJUNCTIVE AORIST. That is just plain ignorance.
No one said there was. As posted earlier the aorist used in John 4:14 is in the subjunctive mood to the verb. Do you know the meaning of the use of the aroist when used in the subjunctive mood? What is the difference between the subjunctive mood and the indicative mood?
And, there is NO SUCH THING as a "middle person". There is, however, a "middle voice", but apparently you have no knowledge of Greek grammar. your errors with Greek grammar sink your boat. Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm having none of it. If you "learned" about a "subjunctive aorist" or a "middle person" from Mounce, you need to quit reading him and find an actual scholar.
Look I am getting quite tired with your false claims and accusations to what I am saying to you which is simply a distraction to the discussion. I am not saying anything in regards to what your saying here so please do not pretend that I am as it is misrepresenting what I am saying which is dishonest and disrespectful. I am sure you understood when I typed middle I left off "3rd" to person I was referring to the voice and not a "middle person" as I provided a link to V-FIM-3S which is the verb - Future indicative Middle - 3rd person singular. So let's be honest here. If your not sure on what I am saying just ask. It is obviously you that does not know Greek but I am not interested in silly arguments with you so prove what you say otherwise there is no point in continuing this discussion if your going to try and twist and misrepresent what is being shared with you here.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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FreeGrace2 said:
That's all very nice, but doesn't make clear what specifically must be followed to be saved, since you have repeatedly used this phrase in the context of salvation.

Well, there you go. As I thought, you are UNABLE to define what "follow God's Word" for salvation. Typical of those involved in a works-salvation theology.


How hypocritical of you. I have asked you several questions and you have repeatedly failed to answer them.

First, you basically admitted at the beginning of this post that you "have nothing to add" to answer my question about defining exactly what "follow God's Word" means for salvation.

Second, you won't answer my question about WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life. Why don't you know?


Thanks for reminding me. You also conflate justification and sanctification, demonstrating your own ignorance of Scripture.
Perhaps you just did not like the answers shared with you from the scriptures that disagree with your teachings. Anyhow since your not interested in discussing my posts and the scriptures shared in them and the questions asked of you that disagree with your teachings we might have to agree to disagree. Nice talking to you. I pray our conversation may be a blessing to you and give you something to think and pray about. The take home message is that according to the scriptures, no one receives eternal life if they do not believe and follow what God's Word says. If we choose to depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin we will not receive everlasting life *Hebrews 10:26-31. Only those who are believing (present tense) have Gods Word abiding in them who receive God's promise of everlasting life. Those who are not believing do not see life according to John 3:36.

Take Care :wave:
 
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FreeGrace2

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Did you notice that your post here actually does not address anything in the post you are quoting from in post # 236 linked that shows from the scriptures and the Greek along with all the other posts and scriptures that have been shared with you that there is nothing that you have provided here in this thread, that says we can choose to "depart the faith" and return to unbelief and sin and still receive everlasting life?
Your question here is bogus. There is NO verse that says those who depart the faith will have eternal life taken away. So what is your point here? You can't prove your own claim.

What I've proven from Scripture is that those who have received eternal life shall never perish. And you STILL haven't answered my question about WHEN a person does receive eternal life. Why are you stalling and not answering?
 
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FreeGrace2

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You missed the point. The aroist is not used to point out time in the subjunctive mood.
No, you keep missing the point. The aorist NEVER "points out time". It's not a difficult concept.

And then you mentioned a "middle person", which isn't even a thing.

No one said that there was. The subjunctive mood aorist is the verb form that is used to explore a hypothetical situation. I posted you a link in the last post did you read it? The subjunctive mood primarily refers to hypothetical actions in the present or the future, i.e., in the same time covered by the primary tenses of verbs. There are only three tenses of the subjunctive, each of which expresses aspect, not time. As shown earlier in the post you ignored the application of the aorist in the subjunctive mood is the same used in John 4:14 "whoever drinks".
Quote your source for your claim about hypotheticals? Was it Mounce? Was he the guy who taught you about those phony "middle persons", or "subjunctive aorists", neither of which even exist.

Nonsense. Why try and twist what I am saying to something I have never said or perhaps you have a misunderstanding I do not know.
So far, all misunderstanding has been demonstrated on your side. As I keep pointing out.

The subjunctive however does deal with the mood and it does have application of course to the the tenses used (see previous section). As posted in the link provided earlier, the subjunctive mood primarily refers to HYPOTHETICAL actions in the PRESENT or FUTURE, i.e., in the same time covered by the PRIMARY tenses of verbs. There are only three tenses of the subjunctive, each of which expresses ASPECT, not time: PRESENT - ongoing aspect; AORIST - simple aspect; PERFECT - completed aspect. Since the subjunctive mood always refers to hypothetical events, it never has an augment.
Again, I don't believe your claim. Quote your source please.

Not always and not in the subjunctive mood. Can you tell me what is the difference between the indicative mood's meaning and use of an aorist and the subjunctive meaning and use of an aroist? John 4:14 is not indicative to time but to hypothetical aspect.
So what? What does a hypothetical have to do with anything?

Here is where your mistake is. The subjunctive mood of the aorist is not in relation to time but to hypothetical aspect.
Oh, would you please stop this madness? There is no such thing as a subjunctive mood of the aorist. Where do you get your strange ideas?

Tense, voice, and mood stand alone. Tense doesn't change the voice, or mood. same for all of them.

The hypothetical aspect the aroist is being used in John 4:14 is to"whoever drinks" of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst"; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
So what is your point here? So what? How does the hypothetical support your claims or refute mine? You haven't shown either.

John 10:28 does not support once saved always saved.
If you are competent in the English language, you wouldn't say that. Jesus said those given eternal life shall never perish. Did you notice there are NO conditions attached, other than simply receiving eternal life?

And you STILL won't answer my question about WHEN the gift of eternal life is given.

I know why. It proves eternal security and you don't want to go there.

The context you leave out shows that those who those who receive eternal life are those who "believe and follow" what Gods' Word says.
How about reading v.27 again? There is NOTHING that equals conditions for receiving eternal life. If you want the condition for receiving eternal life, you have to go to John 5:24.

It is not saying that those who do not believe and follow what God's Word says receive eternal life.
Please just answer my question of WHEN a person receives eternal life. Do you even know the answer?

That interpretation of the scripture in a contradiction of the scriptures that warn us not to depart the faith and return to unbelief and known unrepentant sin in Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 3:8-19.
There is no "interpretation" here. John 10:28 is straightforward for those who are competent in the English language. Those who receive eternal life shall never perish.

So, WHEN does a person receive eternal life?

No one said there was. As posted earlier the aorist used in John 4:14 is in the subjunctive mood to the verb. Do you know the meaning of the use of the aroist when used in the subjunctive mood?
Nonsense. The aorist tense isn't "used in the subjunctive mood". That is pure absurdity. The aorist tense can be used with any of the moods. But it's NEVER "used IN the subjunctive mood".


What is the difference between the subjunctive mood and the indicative mood?

Look I am getting quite tired with your false claims and accusations to what I am saying to you which is simply a distraction to the discussion.
Oh, this is rich. You're the one claiming there is a "middle person" in Greek grammar, that there is a subjunctive aorist. All this is totally false.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Perhaps you just did not like the answers shared with you from the scriptures that disagree with your teachings.
Your claims disagree with Scripture itself. As I've pointed out many times.

The take home message is that according to the scriptures, no one receives eternal life if they do not believe and follow what God's Word says.
But you can't even tell me WHEN a person does receive eternal life, so who are you to make ANY claim about receiving eternal life, since you don't even know WHEN that occurs.

If we choose to depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin we will not receive everlasting life
This is why I keep hammering my question. You keep making these sweeping claims but don't even know WHEN a person does receive eternal life.

From your sweeping claims, I suspect you think the gift is given at the end of a person's life, or even after it.

Your grasp of Greek grammar is atrocious. You need to get a better grammar text.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No, you keep missing the point. The aorist NEVER "points out time". It's not a difficult concept. And then you mentioned a "middle person", which isn't even a thing.
Not at all. It is you who is missing the point dear friend. I was not the one claiming that the aorist was pointing out time in John 4:14 that was what you were trying to do. I was simply correcting you like I did earlier in the discussion in regards to your claims in regards to John 3:18 and John 5:24. I am sure you understood what I meant about the middle person (voice).
Quote your source for your claim about hypotheticals? Was it Mounce? Was he the guy who taught you about those phony "middle persons", or "subjunctive aorists", neither of which even exist.
Goodness. Your not even reading my posts and the links provided in them are you and seem to only be interested in trying to twist what I share with you which is not what I have said whatsoever.
So far, all misunderstanding has been demonstrated on your side. As I keep pointing out.
Sorry I do not believe you.
Again, I don't believe your claim. Quote your source please.
You are free to believe as you wish. My sources have already been provided your responses here only show your not reading my posts to you.
So what? What does a hypothetical have to do with anything?
I see someone does not understand the subjunctive mood in the Greek or in John 4:14.
Oh, would you please stop this madness? There is no such thing as a subjunctive mood of the aorist.
This seems to be a waste of my time with you as your not following my posts or the discussion here in the posts I have provided to you while seeking to twist what I am saying to you. I am discussing the verb used in "may drink" which is subjunctive mood in John 4:14 which is the verb that is "aorist subjunctive mood active - 3rd person singular" (V-ASA-3S). Look if you don't want to discuss this just say so. All you seem to be doing is trying to twist what I say to you even after I have clarified what I am talking about with you.
Where do you get your strange ideas? Tense, voice, and mood stand alone. Tense doesn't change the voice, or mood. same for all of them.
No one said they did. Please stop pretending I am saying things I have not said.
So what is your point here? So what? How does the hypothetical support your claims or refute mine? You haven't shown either.
It is the water that we receive from Jesus that "remains in us" that becomes a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14) refutes your claim because it the water of life does not remain in us it does not become a well of water springing up into everlasting life. This also, agrees with 1 John 3:9 which says [9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; FOR HIS SEED REMAINS IN HIM: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (the seed here is the Word of God - Luke 8:11). If God's seed or water of life (Jesus the Word of God) does not remain in us we do not have everlasting life. This is also in agreement with Hebrews 10:26-27 that says if we choose to "depart the faith" there remains no more sacrifice for sins but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come. We receive the water of life and God's seed that remains in us as we believe and follow Gods' Word. If we depart the faith and choose to return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin the water of life of God's seed does not remain in us because we no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says therefore we are no longer believers but have now become an unbeliever. Now seriously think about your argument. Are you seriously going to try and argue that we can believe God and depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life
If you are competent in the English language, you wouldn't say that. Jesus said those given eternal life shall never perish. Did you notice there are NO conditions attached, other than simply receiving eternal life?
According to the context your disregarding here. Those who Jesus gives eternal life according to the scriptures are those who believe and follow God's Word which is the context of John 10:28 written in John 10:26-27. Those who hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him are the ones that Jesus gives eternal life. Your disregarding scripture context to who Jesus gives this promise to. Jesus is not giving this promise to those who do not believe and follow His Word now does he?
And you STILL won't answer my question about WHEN the gift of eternal life is given. I know why. It proves eternal security and you don't want to go there.
Already answered you (see post # 233 linked). It seems you just did not like the answer. This is why I also asked you if you know the difference between justification and sanctification which you simply ignored. I asked these questions because it is relevant to my answer and your question because it proved that God's salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says. There is no such thing as once saved always saved otherwise we would not be warned against departing the faith (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31).
How about reading v.27 again? There is NOTHING that equals conditions for receiving eternal life. If you want the condition for receiving eternal life, you have to go to John 5:24.
Lets do it.

You posted John 5:24 which says [24], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. Now go look up the believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) it is a verb that is present participle active and means present tense active to "believing" so the scripture says "he that hears my words and is believing on him that sent me has everlasting life. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. Have a look at John 3:36 [36], He that believes believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.
There is no "interpretation" here. John 10:28 is straightforward for those who are competent in the English language. Those who receive eternal life shall never perish.
Here let me add the context back in that you have left out here that defines who God's promise of eternal life is to...

John 10:26-28 says [26], But you believe (G4100 πιστεύων V-PIA-2P believing) not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. [27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28], And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Note here who are God's sheep and who are not God's sheep? Those who believe not and do not follow what God's Word says are not God's sheep *John 10:26. While we are told in John 10:27 God's sheep hear His voice (the Word of God) and they follow it and in John 10:28 it is those who believe (believing) God gives eternal life not those who depart the faith to become "unbelieving".
Nonsense. The aorist tense isn't "used in the subjunctive mood". That is pure absurdity. The aorist tense can be used with any of the moods. But it's NEVER "used IN the subjunctive mood".
Your wrong. Googles your friend here if you do not know about the aorist subjunctive tense. You do know that when referring to an aorist tense we are referring to a verb tense right? If you do why are you pretending I am saying things I am not saying?

Subjunctive Active. Vivid Future Conditions.

313. The time expressed by the present and aorist subjunctive is generally future, the present expressing the action as going on or repeated, the aorist expressing simply its occurrence, as ἐὰν κωλύῃ, if he shall be hindering, or if he shall hinder (habitually), but ἐὰν κωλύσῃ, simply if he shall hinder.

Aorist Active Subjunctive Of λύω

First Person Singular λύσω
Second Person Singular λύσῃς
Third Person Singular λύσῃ
Second Person Dual λύση-τον
Third Person Dual λύση-τον
First Person Plural λύσω-μεν
Second Person Plural λύση-τε
Third Person Plural λύσωσι

John 4:14 is to"whoever drinks" of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst"; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

the verb used in "may drink" which is subjunctive mood in John 4:14 which is the verb that is "aorist subjunctive mood active - 3rd person singular" (V-ASA-3S).

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Your question here is bogus. There is NO verse that says those who depart the faith will have eternal life taken away. So what is your point here? You can't prove your own claim.

What I've proven from Scripture is that those who have received eternal life shall never perish. And you STILL haven't answered my question about WHEN a person does receive eternal life. Why are you stalling and not answering?

The following do not even include; post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5 linked that show what happens to those who choose to depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin and shows that our salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says as shown from the scriptures in post # 7.

HEBREWS 10:26-31[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions; [33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used. [34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35], (5) CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], (6) FOR YOU HAVE NEED OF PATIENCE, THAT, AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, YOU MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith:(7) BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) (7) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEMSELVES AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY THEMSELVES THE SUN OF GOD AFRESH AND PUT HIM TO OPEN SHAME. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHO'S END IS TO BE BURNED.

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times SOME WILL DEPART FROM THE FAITH BY DEVOTING THEMSELVES TO DECEITFUL SPIRITS AND TEACHINGS OF DEMONS.

JOHN 3:36, He that is BELIEVING ON THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE: and he that is BELIEVING NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD STAYS ON HIM.

ROMANS 2:6-9 [6], Who will render to every man according to his deeds: [7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: [8], BUT TO THEM THAT ARE CONTENTIOUS, AND DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, BUT OBEY UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, INDIGNATION AND WRATH, [9], TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH, ON EVERY SOUL OF MAN THAT DOES EVIL, OF THE JEW FIRST, AND ALSO OF THE GENTILE.

MATTHEW 24:10-13 AND THEN MANY WILL FALL AWAY AND BETRAY ONE ANOTHER AND HATE ONE ANOTHER. AND MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL ARISE AND LEAD MANY ASTRAY. And BECAUSE LAWLESSNESS WILL BE INCREASED, THE LOVE OF MANY WILL GROW COLD. BUT HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:5-12 [5] NEVERTHELESS, WITH MOST OF THEM GOD WAS NOT PLEASED, FOR THEY WERE OVERTHROWN IN THE WILDERNESS. [6] NOW THESE THINGS TOOK PLACE AS EXAMPLES FOR US, THAT WE MIGHT NOT DESIRE EVIL AS THEY DID. [7] DO NOT BE IDOLATERS AS SOME OF THEM WERE; AS IT IS WRITTEN, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK AND ROSE UP TO PLAY.” [8] WE MUST NOT INDULGE IN SEXUAL IMMORALITY AS SOME OF THEM DID, AND TWENTY-THREE THOUSAND FELL IN A SINGLE DAY. [9] WE MUST NOT PUT CHRIST TO THE TEST, AS SOME OF THEM DID AND WERE DESTROYED BY SERPENTS, [10] NOR GRUMBLE, AS SOME OF THEM DID AND WERE DESTROYED BY THE DESTROYER. [11] NOW THESE THINGS HAPPENED TO THEM AS AN EXAMPLE, BUT THEY WERE WRITTEN DOWN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION, ON WHOM THE END OF THE AGES HAS COME. [12] Therefore LET ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT HE STANDS TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL.

2 PETER 3:16-17 [16], As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. [17], YOU THEREFORE, BELOVED, SEEING YOU KNOW THESE THINGS BEFORE, BEWARE LEST YOU ALSO, BEING LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS.

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 For THE TIME IS COMING WHEN PEOPLE WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND TEACHING, BUT HAVING ITCHING EARS THEY WILL ACCUMULATE FOR THEMSELVES TEACHERS TO SUIT THEIR OWN PASSIONS, AND WILL TURN AWAY FROM LISTENING TO THE TRUTH AND WANDER OFF INTO MYTHS.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

MATTHEW 7:19-23 EVERY TREE THAT DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT IS CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, 'LORD, LORD,' WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT ONLY HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO WORK INIQUITY.

MATTHEW 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

MATTHEW 24:9-13 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH AND WILL BETRAY AND HATE EACH OTHER, AND MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL APPEAR AND DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

LUKE 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. HE WILL CUT HIM TO PIECES AND ASSIGN HIM A PLACE WITH THE UNBELIEVERS.

LUKE 13:6-9 “Then he told this parable: A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! IF NOT, THEN CUT IT DOWN.

JOHN 8:31-32 “To the Jews WHO HAD BELIEVED HIM, Jesus said, IF YOU HOLD TO MY TEACHING, YOU ARE REALLY MY DISCIPLES. THEN YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

JOHN 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. HE CUTS OFF EVERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARS NO FRUIT, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. REMAIN IN ME, AND I WILL REMAIN IN YOU. NO BRANCH CAN BEAR FRUIT BY ITSELF; IT MUST REMAIN IN THE VINE. NEITHER CAN YOU BEAR FRUIT UNLESS YOU REMAIN IN ME. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED

ROMANS 11:20-22 …But THEY WERE BROKEN OFF BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

1 TIMOTHY 1:18-20 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight HOLDING ON TO FAITH AND A GOOD CONSCIENCE. SOME HAVE REJECTED THESE AND SO HAVE SHIPWRECKED THEIR FAITH. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.”

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH AND FOLLOW DECEIVING SPIRITS AND THINGS TAUGHT BY DEMONS.

HEBREWS 3:12-14 SEE TO IT, BROTHERS, THAT NONE OF YOU HAS A SINFUL, UNBELIEVING HEART THAT TURNS AWAY FROM THE LIVING GOD. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, SO THAT NONE OF YOU MAY BE HARDENED BY SIN'S DECEITFULNESS. We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END the confidence we had at first.”

REVELATION 3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL, LIKE THEM, BE DRESSED IN WHITE. I WILL NEVER BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

REVELATION 22:19 And IF ANYONE TAKES WORDS AWAY FROM THIS BOOK OF PROPHECY, GOD WILL TAKE AWAY FROM HIM HIS SHARE IN THE TREE OF LIFE AND IN THE HOLY CITY, WHICH ARE DESCRIBED IN THIS BOOK.

It seems God's Word disagrees with you dear friend.

Take Care.
 
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Not at all. It is you who is missing the point dear friend. I was not the one claiming that the aorist was pointing out time in John 4:14 that was what you were trying to do.
Well, you are wrong again! I never said the aorist "was pointing out time". The aorist describes an action as a point IN time. Do you comprehend what this means?

I was simply correcting you like I did earlier in the discussion in regards to your claims in regards to John 5:24. I am sure you understood what I meant about the middle person (voice).
Since there isn't any such thing as a "middle person", how would anyone understand your erroneous wordings?

You are free to believe as you wish. My sources have already been provided your responses here only show your not reading my posts to you.
Your sources are what has led you so far astray, what with your 'middle person' and "aorist subjunctive", neither of which exists.

I see someone does not understand the subjunctive mood in the Greek or in John 4:14.
Yes, you certainly are "seeing things". You are just very confused. The subjunctive mood is the mood of potential. That's all. it's nothing of which you are trying to force it.

This seems to be a waste of my time with you as your not following my posts or the discussion here in the posts I have provided to you while seeking to twist what I am saying to you. I am discussing the verb used in "may drink" which is subjunctive mood in John 4:14 which is the verb that is "aorist subjunctive mood active - 3rd person singular" (V-ASA-3S). Look if you don't want to discuss this just say so. All you seem to be doing is trying to twist what I say to you even after I have clarified what I am talking about with you.
I'm tired of all your erroneous claims regarding Greek grammar.

So, explain what a "aorist subjunctive" is and means.

Are you seriously going to try and argue that we can believe God and depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life
How come you won't answer my question about WHEN a person receives the gift of ternal life?

According to the context your disregarding here. Those who Jesus gives eternal life according to the scriptures are those who believe and follow God's Word which is the context of John 10:28 written in John 10:26-27.
Then prove your claim by quoting both verses AND highlighting the wording that shows conditionality for receiving eternal life. I DARE you.

Those who hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him are the ones that Jesus gives eternal life
Prove it from John 10:27,28 by highlighting the 'conditional' words.

Your disregarding scripture context to who Jesus gives this promise to.
Rather, you are seriously disregarding the plain words of Scripture.

I am anxiously awaiting your "proof" that v.27 is a condition for v.28. Can't wait.

Jesus is not giving this promise to those who do not believe and follow His Word now does he?
Then just tell me WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life.

Quit stalling and dodging.

Already answered you (see post # 233 linked). It seems you just did not like the answer. This is why I also asked you if you know the difference between justification and sanctification which you simply ignored.
you're the one who doesn't read posts. I asked you to explain the words and how they are the same or different. Where is your answer?

You posted John 5:24 which says [24], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. Now go look up the believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) it is a verb that is present participle active and means present tense active to "believing" so the scripture says "he that hears my words and is believing on him that sent me has everlasting life. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. Have a look at John 3:36 [36], He that believes believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.
You have just demonstrated your contempt for Scripture, and a very poor comprehension of plain English.

Here let me add the context back in that you have left out here that defines who God's promise of eternal life is to...
I KNOW to WHOM eternal life is promised. That's NOT my question. It is WHEN the gift is received. Why do you continue to dodge the answer?

John 10:26-28 says [26], But you believe (G4100 πιστεύων V-PIA-2P believing) not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. [27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28], And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Note here who are God's sheep and who are not God's sheep? Those who believe not and do not follow what God's Word says are not God's sheep *John 10:26. While we are told in John 10:27 God's sheep hear His voice (the Word of God) and they follow it and in John 10:28 it is those who believe (believing) God gives eternal life not those who depart the faith to become "unbelieving".
This doesn't answer the WHEN question, now does it. Why can't you answer it?

Your wrong. Googles your friend here if you do not know about the aorist subjunctive tense. You do know that when referring to an aorist tense we are referring to a verb tense right? If you do why are you pretending I am saying things I am not saying?
You are saying garbage. There is no such verb as an "aorist subjunctive". Who told you there was such a thing?

Subjunctive Active. Vivid Future Conditions.

313. The time expressed by the present and aorist subjunctive is generally future, the present expressing the action as going on or repeated, the aorist expressing simply its occurrence, as ἐὰν κωλύῃ, if he shall be hindering, or if he shall hinder (habitually), but ἐὰν κωλύσῃ, simply if he shall hinder.

Aorist Active Subjunctive Of λύω

First Person Singular λύσω
Second Person Singular λύσῃς
Third Person Singular λύσῃ
Second Person Dual λύση-τον
Third Person Dual λύση-τον
First Person Plural λύσω-μεν
Second Person Plural λύση-τε
Third Person Plural λύσωσι
None of this is relevant to anything.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Your question here is bogus. There is NO verse that says those who depart the faith will have eternal life taken away. So what is your point here? You can't prove your own claim.

What I've proven from Scripture is that those who have received eternal life shall never perish. And you STILL haven't answered my question about WHEN a person does receive eternal life. Why are you stalling and not answering?
The following do not even include; post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5 linked that show what happens to those who choose to depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin and shows that our salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says as shown from the scriptures in post # 7.
Why can't or won't you answer my questions?

HEBREWS 10:26-31[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions; [33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used. [34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35], (5) CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], (6) FOR YOU HAVE NEED OF PATIENCE, THAT, AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, YOU MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith:(7) BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) (7) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEMSELVES AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY THEMSELVES THE SUN OF GOD AFRESH AND PUT HIM TO OPEN SHAME. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHO'S END IS TO BE BURNED.

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times SOME WILL DEPART FROM THE FAITH BY DEVOTING THEMSELVES TO DECEITFUL SPIRITS AND TEACHINGS OF DEMONS.

JOHN 3:36, He that is BELIEVING ON THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE: and he that is BELIEVING NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD STAYS ON HIM.

ROMANS 2:6-9 [6], Who will render to every man according to his deeds: [7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: [8], BUT TO THEM THAT ARE CONTENTIOUS, AND DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, BUT OBEY UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, INDIGNATION AND WRATH, [9], TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH, ON EVERY SOUL OF MAN THAT DOES EVIL, OF THE JEW FIRST, AND ALSO OF THE GENTILE.

MATTHEW 24:10-13 AND THEN MANY WILL FALL AWAY AND BETRAY ONE ANOTHER AND HATE ONE ANOTHER. AND MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL ARISE AND LEAD MANY ASTRAY. And BECAUSE LAWLESSNESS WILL BE INCREASED, THE LOVE OF MANY WILL GROW COLD. BUT HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:5-12 [5] NEVERTHELESS, WITH MOST OF THEM GOD WAS NOT PLEASED, FOR THEY WERE OVERTHROWN IN THE WILDERNESS. [6] NOW THESE THINGS TOOK PLACE AS EXAMPLES FOR US, THAT WE MIGHT NOT DESIRE EVIL AS THEY DID. [7] DO NOT BE IDOLATERS AS SOME OF THEM WERE; AS IT IS WRITTEN, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK AND ROSE UP TO PLAY.” [8] WE MUST NOT INDULGE IN SEXUAL IMMORALITY AS SOME OF THEM DID, AND TWENTY-THREE THOUSAND FELL IN A SINGLE DAY. [9] WE MUST NOT PUT CHRIST TO THE TEST, AS SOME OF THEM DID AND WERE DESTROYED BY SERPENTS, [10] NOR GRUMBLE, AS SOME OF THEM DID AND WERE DESTROYED BY THE DESTROYER. [11] NOW THESE THINGS HAPPENED TO THEM AS AN EXAMPLE, BUT THEY WERE WRITTEN DOWN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION, ON WHOM THE END OF THE AGES HAS COME. [12] Therefore LET ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT HE STANDS TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL.

2 PETER 3:16-17 [16], As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. [17], YOU THEREFORE, BELOVED, SEEING YOU KNOW THESE THINGS BEFORE, BEWARE LEST YOU ALSO, BEING LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS.

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 For THE TIME IS COMING WHEN PEOPLE WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND TEACHING, BUT HAVING ITCHING EARS THEY WILL ACCUMULATE FOR THEMSELVES TEACHERS TO SUIT THEIR OWN PASSIONS, AND WILL TURN AWAY FROM LISTENING TO THE TRUTH AND WANDER OFF INTO MYTHS.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

MATTHEW 7:19-23 EVERY TREE THAT DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT IS CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, 'LORD, LORD,' WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT ONLY HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO WORK INIQUITY.

MATTHEW 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

MATTHEW 24:9-13 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH AND WILL BETRAY AND HATE EACH OTHER, AND MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL APPEAR AND DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

LUKE 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. HE WILL CUT HIM TO PIECES AND ASSIGN HIM A PLACE WITH THE UNBELIEVERS.

LUKE 13:6-9 “Then he told this parable: A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! IF NOT, THEN CUT IT DOWN.

JOHN 8:31-32 “To the Jews WHO HAD BELIEVED HIM, Jesus said, IF YOU HOLD TO MY TEACHING, YOU ARE REALLY MY DISCIPLES. THEN YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

JOHN 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. HE CUTS OFF EVERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARS NO FRUIT, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. REMAIN IN ME, AND I WILL REMAIN IN YOU. NO BRANCH CAN BEAR FRUIT BY ITSELF; IT MUST REMAIN IN THE VINE. NEITHER CAN YOU BEAR FRUIT UNLESS YOU REMAIN IN ME. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED

ROMANS 11:20-22 …But THEY WERE BROKEN OFF BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

1 TIMOTHY 1:18-20 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight HOLDING ON TO FAITH AND A GOOD CONSCIENCE. SOME HAVE REJECTED THESE AND SO HAVE SHIPWRECKED THEIR FAITH. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.”

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH AND FOLLOW DECEIVING SPIRITS AND THINGS TAUGHT BY DEMONS.

HEBREWS 3:12-14 SEE TO IT, BROTHERS, THAT NONE OF YOU HAS A SINFUL, UNBELIEVING HEART THAT TURNS AWAY FROM THE LIVING GOD. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, SO THAT NONE OF YOU MAY BE HARDENED BY SIN'S DECEITFULNESS. We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END the confidence we had at first.”

REVELATION 3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL, LIKE THEM, BE DRESSED IN WHITE. I WILL NEVER BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

REVELATION 22:19 And IF ANYONE TAKES WORDS AWAY FROM THIS BOOK OF PROPHECY, GOD WILL TAKE AWAY FROM HIM HIS SHARE IN THE TREE OF LIFE AND IN THE HOLY CITY, WHICH ARE DESCRIBED IN THIS BOOK.
It is clear to me that you do not believe what Jesus said. If ANYONE in the above verses has ever received the gift of eternal life, Jesus said they shall never perish.

So all your ridiculous claims are wrong and are contrary to what Jesus said.

It seems God's Word disagrees with you dear friend.
Hardly. God's Word clearly disagrees with your wild claims.

If eternal life can be lost, just quote your single best and most clear verse that says so.
 
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LoveGodsWord said: The following do not even include; post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5 linked that show what happens to those who choose to depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin and shows that our salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says as shown from the scriptures in post # 7.

HEBREWS 10:26-31[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions; [33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used. [34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35], (5) CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], (6) FOR YOU HAVE NEED OF PATIENCE, THAT, AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, YOU MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith:(7) BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) (7) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEMSELVES AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY THEMSELVES THE SUN OF GOD AFRESH AND PUT HIM TO OPEN SHAME. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHO'S END IS TO BE BURNED.

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times SOME WILL DEPART FROM THE FAITH BY DEVOTING THEMSELVES TO DECEITFUL SPIRITS AND TEACHINGS OF DEMONS.

JOHN 3:36, He that is BELIEVING ON THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE: and he that is BELIEVING NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD STAYS ON HIM.

ROMANS 2:6-9 [6], Who will render to every man according to his deeds: [7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: [8], BUT TO THEM THAT ARE CONTENTIOUS, AND DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, BUT OBEY UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, INDIGNATION AND WRATH, [9], TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH, ON EVERY SOUL OF MAN THAT DOES EVIL, OF THE JEW FIRST, AND ALSO OF THE GENTILE.

MATTHEW 24:10-13 AND THEN MANY WILL FALL AWAY AND BETRAY ONE ANOTHER AND HATE ONE ANOTHER. AND MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL ARISE AND LEAD MANY ASTRAY. And BECAUSE LAWLESSNESS WILL BE INCREASED, THE LOVE OF MANY WILL GROW COLD. BUT HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:5-12 [5] NEVERTHELESS, WITH MOST OF THEM GOD WAS NOT PLEASED, FOR THEY WERE OVERTHROWN IN THE WILDERNESS. [6] NOW THESE THINGS TOOK PLACE AS EXAMPLES FOR US, THAT WE MIGHT NOT DESIRE EVIL AS THEY DID. [7] DO NOT BE IDOLATERS AS SOME OF THEM WERE; AS IT IS WRITTEN, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK AND ROSE UP TO PLAY.” [8] WE MUST NOT INDULGE IN SEXUAL IMMORALITY AS SOME OF THEM DID, AND TWENTY-THREE THOUSAND FELL IN A SINGLE DAY. [9] WE MUST NOT PUT CHRIST TO THE TEST, AS SOME OF THEM DID AND WERE DESTROYED BY SERPENTS, [10] NOR GRUMBLE, AS SOME OF THEM DID AND WERE DESTROYED BY THE DESTROYER. [11] NOW THESE THINGS HAPPENED TO THEM AS AN EXAMPLE, BUT THEY WERE WRITTEN DOWN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION, ON WHOM THE END OF THE AGES HAS COME. [12] Therefore LET ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT HE STANDS TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL.

2 PETER 3:16-17 [16], As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. [17], YOU THEREFORE, BELOVED, SEEING YOU KNOW THESE THINGS BEFORE, BEWARE LEST YOU ALSO, BEING LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS.

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 For THE TIME IS COMING WHEN PEOPLE WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND TEACHING, BUT HAVING ITCHING EARS THEY WILL ACCUMULATE FOR THEMSELVES TEACHERS TO SUIT THEIR OWN PASSIONS, AND WILL TURN AWAY FROM LISTENING TO THE TRUTH AND WANDER OFF INTO MYTHS.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

MATTHEW 7:19-23 EVERY TREE THAT DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT IS CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, 'LORD, LORD,' WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT ONLY HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO WORK INIQUITY.

MATTHEW 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

MATTHEW 24:9-13 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH AND WILL BETRAY AND HATE EACH OTHER, AND MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL APPEAR AND DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

LUKE 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. HE WILL CUT HIM TO PIECES AND ASSIGN HIM A PLACE WITH THE UNBELIEVERS.

LUKE 13:6-9 “Then he told this parable: A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! IF NOT, THEN CUT IT DOWN.

JOHN 8:31-32 “To the Jews WHO HAD BELIEVED HIM, Jesus said, IF YOU HOLD TO MY TEACHING, YOU ARE REALLY MY DISCIPLES. THEN YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

JOHN 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. HE CUTS OFF EVERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARS NO FRUIT, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. REMAIN IN ME, AND I WILL REMAIN IN YOU. NO BRANCH CAN BEAR FRUIT BY ITSELF; IT MUST REMAIN IN THE VINE. NEITHER CAN YOU BEAR FRUIT UNLESS YOU REMAIN IN ME. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED

ROMANS 11:20-22 …But THEY WERE BROKEN OFF BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.”

1 TIMOTHY 1:18-20 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight HOLDING ON TO FAITH AND A GOOD CONSCIENCE. SOME HAVE REJECTED THESE AND SO HAVE SHIPWRECKED THEIR FAITH. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.”

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH AND FOLLOW DECEIVING SPIRITS AND THINGS TAUGHT BY DEMONS.”

HEBREWS 3:12-14 SEE TO IT, BROTHERS, THAT NONE OF YOU HAS A SINFUL, UNBELIEVING HEART THAT TURNS AWAY FROM THE LIVING GOD. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, SO THAT NONE OF YOU MAY BE HARDENED BY SIN'S DECEITFULNESS. We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END the confidence we had at first.”

REVELATION 3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL, LIKE THEM, BE DRESSED IN WHITE. I WILL NEVER BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

REVELATION 22:19 And IF ANYONE TAKES WORDS AWAY FROM THIS BOOK OF PROPHECY, GOD WILL TAKE AWAY FROM HIM HIS SHARE IN THE TREE OF LIFE AND IN THE HOLY CITY, WHICH ARE DESCRIBED IN THIS BOOK.
Your response here...
FreeGrace2 said:
Your question here is bogus. There is NO verse that says those who depart the faith will have eternal life taken away. So what is your point here? You can't prove your own claim.

What I've proven from Scripture is that those who have received eternal life shall never perish. And you STILL haven't answered my question about WHEN a person does receive eternal life. Why are you stalling and not answering?

Why can't or won't you answer my questions?


It is clear to me that you do not believe what Jesus said. If ANYONE in the above verses has ever received the gift of eternal life, Jesus said they shall never perish.

So all your ridiculous claims are wrong and are contrary to what Jesus said.


Hardly. God's Word clearly disagrees with your wild claims.

If eternal life can be lost, just quote your single best and most clear verse that says so.

The above post you are quoting from are God's Words not my words that you disagree with your words that are not God's Word.

Take Care
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Well, you are wrong again! I never said the aorist "was pointing out time". The aorist describes an action as a point IN time. Do you comprehend what this means?
Well that claim is not true at all. As posted already the "subjunctive mood" does not describe an action as a point in time. Jesus says everyone that drinks or is drinking normal water will thirst again and needs to drink normal water again right? It is the context to the hypothetical here that is important because the aorist used in “whoever drinks or whoever may drink” is subjunctive mood middle voice -third third person singular (V-ASA-3S). This means that the tenses of the subjunctive reflect the aspect or condition, not time. (Ancient Greek pressbooks).

So what this means in John 4:13-14 is that “whoever drinks” (condition) [14] where the aorist is used in the subjunctive form is talking about “present tense” of a hypothetical event to the condition of receiving and drinking spiritual water (the Word of God) that Jesus gives us (subjunctive here is hypothetical). This water (the Word) it says “will be” (Future indicative active middle voice – 3rd person) which is conditional to being “in him” (the Word in us; by faith; believing) a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The scripture therefore is “conditional” to receiving the spiritual water (the Word of God – Jesus and his words) and this spiritual water remaining “in us”. So your claims here in John 4:13-14 use of the subjunctive aorist does not support your view that we can "depart the faith" return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life when the scriptures teach the opposite in Hebrews 10:26-31.

The scripture here in John 4:13-14 say nowhere that we can receive Gods’ Word yesterday, and “depart the faith” today so that God’s Word no longer “remains in us” and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life. As eternal life according to the scriptures is conditional on believing and following what Gods’ Word says. No one receives eternal life by not believing and following what Gods' Word says. This teaching is not biblical and according to James is the dead faith of devils in James 2:17-26
Since there isn't any such thing as a "middle person", how would anyone understand your erroneous wordings? Your sources are what has led you so far astray, what with your 'middle person' and "aorist subjunctive", neither of which exists.
You have already been corrected on your misunderstandings here and false accusations in earlier posts (see bottom section in post 241 linked). Now that you have been corrected it would be appreciated if you could stop misrepresenting our discussion by claiming thing no one believes.
How come you won't answer my question about WHEN a person receives the gift of ternal life?
Already answered with a detailed scripture response provided in the second section of post # 221 linked or post # 225 and elsewhere. It seems you did not like the answer. There is no point in continuing this as you cannot even tell me what the difference between justification and sanctification and how this relates to your question which was provided in the answer I provided from the scriptures in the linked posts above.
Then prove your claim by quoting both verses AND highlighting the wording that shows conditionality for receiving eternal life. I DARE you.
Conditional salvation has already been demonstrated from the scriptures throughout this thread. Please see post # 7 linked and post # 247 linked. What is it in all these scriptures that prove that salvation is conditional to believing and following what God’s Word says (present tense) that you do not believe?
Prove it from John 10:27,28 by highlighting the 'conditional' words.
I did not need to. I proved it to you by showing the context you disregarded in John 10:26-27 that shows that the promise of eternal life is made to those who are believing and following what Gods’ Word says. The promise of eternal life is not being made to those who are not believing and not following what Gods Word says. Jesus says that those who do not believe and do not follow are not Gods sheep therefore the promise is not made to them. Your disregarding scripture context. Conditional salvation has already been demonstrated from the scriptures already posted in post # 7 linked and post # 247 linked.

Take care dear friend.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I asked you when you think the gift of eternal life is given, and you haven't answered yet.

Could you point me to the place where it specifies WHEN eternal life is given? Thanks.


Jesus was clear that he gives eternal life. So the question is, when does He?

There is a biblical answer.





Are you not asking a question without knowledge and understanding.



Jesus in John 10 says He will give unto the sheep eternal life and they never perish.

It is not everlasting life that causes them to not perish, it is the knowledge of salvation.



The Apostles here express what they saw in Jesus, of the Word of life, and the life was manifested, and they saw Him, and show unto us that eternal life, which was with the Father ( the Son was with the Father) and now declared to us so we can have fellowship with the Apostles of the Lord, as their fellowship was truly with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ....



1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.





This is told why the Son visited us, to give us His light to guide us into His way of peace and out of the way of darkness, giving the knowledge of salvation by the remission of our sins..




Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.





Jesus speaks of the gift of God to the Samaritan woman, which is the Word of life, the living word and how Jesus would give her living waters...




John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.





John 10 tells of the eternal life to be given to the sheep, and how this causes them to never perish...



John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.





Jesus here in John 17 explains what this eternal life is, how it is not being made immortal, but it is knowing the only true God ( fellowship with the Apostles and with the Father and with the Son) and to know Jesus Christ who the Father sent ( to give knowledge of salvation by the remission of our sins)...



John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.





Back to where the Apostles were speaking from, and the belief is to know that the Son of God came and gave us an understanding, to know Him that is true ( to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent) to be in Him that is true ( Him that is true and the only true God is His Son Jesus Christ) and that is the true God and eternal life.

Eternal life is God, it is not man.

Gods truth is seeking the gift that Jesus gave, of laying your life down, it is not in seeking for yourselves..




1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The above post you are quoting from are God's Words not my words that you disagree with your words that are not God's Word.
You couldn't be more wrong. And confused.

Take Care[/QUOTE]
The only thing I'm waiting for now is your answer as to WHEN a person actually receives the GIFT of eternal life. I still do not know, and therefore, cannot respond to much of what you post.

I need to know WHEN you think a person receives the GIFT so that I can properly respond to your posts.

Thanks.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Well that claim is not true at all. As posted already the "subjunctive mood" does not describe an action as a point in time.
What in the world is wrong with you??!! I NEVER even hinted at such total nonsense.

The "subjunctive mood" isn't even a verb, for heaven's sake. It is clear you aren't really interested in a serious discussion or you wouldn't be making such horrendous errors as seen here.

The "mood" generally describes the verbal action with reference to its actuality (reality) or potentiality (possibility).

Wallace identifies 4 "moods":
1. indicative mood - the mood of actuality or reality
2. subjunctive mood - the mood of potential or possibility.
3. optative mood - when the speaker wishes to portray an action as possible. The optative is becoming absorbed by the subjunctive in the Koine.
4. imperative mood - the mood of command.

Jesus says everyone that drinks or is drinking normal water will thirst again and needs to drink normal water again right?
Right. iow, drinking literal water presently doesn't mean thirst won't occur again. But your claim is that believing in Christ must continue in order for salvation to continue. But Jesus' example of present tense drinking refutes your claim.

It is the context to the hypothetical here that is important because the aorist used in “whoever drinks or whoever may drink” is subjunctive mood middle voice -third third person singular (V-ASA-3S). This means that the tenses of the subjunctive reflect the aspect or condition, not time. (Ancient Greek pressbooks).
This means nothing without further explanation.

So what this means in John 4:13-14 is that “whoever drinks” (condition) [14] where the aorist is used in the subjunctive form is talking about “present tense” of a hypothetical event to the condition of receiving and drinking spiritual water (the Word of God) that Jesus gives us (subjunctive here is hypothetical).
Uh, NO, absolutely NOT!! You clearly don't know what you are taking about!!

The subjunctive only means potential or possibility. And your ridiculous leap from the aorist to the present tense is hilarious, at least.

Jesus is making the point that from believing in Him (drinking) as a possibility means the person WILL NEVER THIRST AGAIN. But your eyes are closed to the truth of Scripture.

You deny what Jesus was teaching. Basically, He taught that from the MOMENT of belief in Him, they would NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 says exactly that.

So your claims here in John 4:13-14 use of the subjunctive aorist does not support your view that we can "depart the faith" return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life
OK, so why haven't you answered my question about WHEN a person DOES receive eternal life? I cannot comment on your sentence above UNTIL I know what you think about WHEN a person receives the gift.

when the scriptures teach the opposite in Hebrews 10:26-31.
This passage does NOT teach loss of salvation. It teaches divine discipline.

The scripture here in John 4:13-14 say nowhere that we can receive Gods’ Word yesterday, and “depart the faith” today so that God’s Word no longer “remains in us” and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life.
OK, there's that phrase you like to use: "and STILL receive eternal life". When are you going to figure out WHEN a person actually DOES receive the gift?

I cannot comment on your statements UNTIL I understand your view of WHEN a person DOES receive the gift.

As eternal life according to the scriptures is conditional on believing and following what Gods’ Word says.
Please share any verse that tells us WHEN a person DOES receive the gift.

No one receives eternal life by not believing and following what Gods' Word says.
Please just explain WHEN a person DOES receive the gift of eternal life. Because I cannot comment on such claims UNTIL I know your answer.

This teaching is not biblical and according to James is the dead faith of devils in James 2:17-26
Please read the text again. James said NOTHING about "dead faith of devils". You aren't even close to what James was describing. Such ignorance is appalling.

Conditional salvation has already been demonstrated from the scriptures throughout this thread.
Well, of course salvation is conditional. The single condition is trust in Christ for it. Acts 16:31

Please see post # 7 linked and post # 247 linked. What is it in all these scriptures that prove that salvation is conditional to believing and following what God’s Word says (present tense) that you do not believe?
Again, I cannot comment on your claims here UNTIL you tell me WHEN a person actually DOES receive the gift of eternal life. Do you know or do you NOT know?

I did not need to. I proved it to you by showing the context you disregarded in John 10:26-27 that shows that the promise of eternal life is made to those who are believing and following what Gods’ Word says.
Again, you are just horribly confused about those verses. There is NO WORDING that indicates that v.27 forms a condition for receiving eternal life. We do find the condition for receiving eternal life in John 5:24 however.

The promise of eternal life is not being made to those who are not believing and not following what Gods Word says.
I never said otherwise. However, I still cannot comment on your statement here until you tell me WHEN a person actually DOES receive the gift of eternal life.

I'm not talking about the "promise" of eternal life. I'm talking about WHEN a person actually DOES possess the gift. Do you know or not?

Jesus says that those who do not believe and do not follow are not Gods sheep therefore the promise is not made to them.
Please stop trying to move the goal posts. I'm not talking about a promise. I'm talking about the ACTUALL possession of the gift.

Jesus said in John 10:28 "I GIVE THEM eternal life". So, do you know WHEN He does that, or do you not have a clue as to WHEN He does that?
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I asked you when you think the gift of eternal life is given, and you haven't answered yet.

Could you point me to the place where it specifies WHEN eternal life is given? Thanks.

Jesus was clear that he gives eternal life. So the question is, when does He?

There is a biblical answer.
Are you not asking a question without knowledge and understanding.
This appears to be a silly question. When a person asks a question, it is because they ARE without knowledge and understanding. That's WHY they ask the question. Why don't you understand that?

Jesus in John 10 says He will give unto the sheep eternal life and they never perish.
Corrrect.

It is not everlasting life that causes them to not perish, it is the knowledge of salvation.
You are really confused. Of course it is the possession of ETERNAL LIFE that prevents them from perishing. iow, having eternal life means they cannot die.

It is the knowledge of salvation that results in possessing eternal life. Did you really not understand that?

You quoted a lot of Scripture, but I was unable to figure out what your point was. Or even how you understood what you quoted.

So I am unable to comment on much of your post.
 
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You couldn't be more wrong. And confused. The only thing I'm waiting for now is your answer as to WHEN a person actually receives the GIFT of eternal life. I still do not know, and therefore, cannot respond to much of what you post. I need to know WHEN you think a person receives the GIFT so that I can properly respond to your posts. Thanks.

This is repetition here of your words that disagree with the scriptures that are Gods Word that disagree with your teachings without showing why you disagree. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29) so I guess we will agree to disagree.
 
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What in the world is wrong with you??!! I NEVER even hinted at such total nonsense.
Then why argue that the aroist in John 4:14 proves that you cannot lose your salvation when the scriptures contexts are conditional to receiving Gods' Word and Gods' Word remaining "in us" that believe it and try and claim the aroist use in John 4:14 proves we cannot depart the faith into unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life when the scriptures teach the exact opposite *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8)?
The "subjunctive mood" isn't even a verb, for heaven's sake. It is clear you aren't really interested in a serious discussion or you wouldn't be making such horrendous errors as seen here.
Goodness more misrepresentation? No one has ever said to you that the "subjunctive mood" is a verb. If no one has ever said this to you why pretend that they have? Misrepresentation seems to be becoming a habit of yours in our discussion.
The "mood" generally describes the verbal action with reference to its actuality (reality) or potentiality (possibility).

Wallace identifies 4 "moods":
1. indicative mood - the mood of actuality or reality
2. subjunctive mood - the mood of potential or possibility.
3. optative mood - when the speaker wishes to portray an action as possible. The optative is becoming absorbed by the subjunctive in the Koine.
4. imperative mood - the mood of command.
Agreed and your point here is? - You did not make one. I already posted on the subjunctive mood from the start showing its use in John 4:14 is conditional and hypothetical.
But your claim is that believing in Christ must continue in order for salvation to continue. But Jesus' example of present tense drinking refutes your claim.
No not at all but let me explain why from the scriptures. According to the scriptures, we must continue "believing" and "following" God's Word to the end in order to receive eternal life. The scriptures do not teach anywhere that we can choose to "depart the faith" and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and receive everlasting life. This is because those doing this are no longer "believers" who are "believing" but are now "unbelievers" who are "unbelieving". This was already pointed out to you in over 100+ scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of John 4:4 (see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199).

John 4:14 states that “whoever drinks” (condition) [14] where the verb is used in the subjunctive form is talking about “present tense” of a hypothetical event to the condition of receiving and drinking spiritual water (the Word of God) that Jesus gives us (subjunctive here is hypothetical). This water (the Word) it says “will be” (Future indicative active middle voice – 3rd person) which is conditional to being “in him” (the Word in us; by faith; believing) a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The scripture therefore is “conditional” to receiving the spiritual water (the Word of God – Jesus and his words) and this spiritual water remainingin us”. So your claims here in John 4:13-14 use of the aorist does not support your view that we can "depart the faith" return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life when the scriptures teach the opposite in Hebrews 10:26-31.

If the water of life does not remain in us it does not become a well of water springing up into everlasting life. This also, agrees with 1 John 3:9 which says [9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; FOR HIS SEED REMAINS IN HIM: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (the seed here is the Word of God - Luke 8:11). If God's seed or water of life (Jesus the Word of God) does not remain in us we do not have everlasting life. This is also in agreement with Hebrews 10:26-27 that says if we choose to "depart the faith" there remains no more sacrifice for sins but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come. We receive the water of life and God's seed that remains in us as we believe and follow Gods' Word. If we "depart the faith" and choose to return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin the water of life of God's seed does not remain "in us" because we are no longer believing and following what Gods' Word says therefore we are no longer believers but have now become an unbeliever.

Now seriously, think about your argument. Are you seriously going to try and argue that we can believe God and depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life? This teaching is not biblical or is it supported in the scriptures.
Uh, NO, absolutely NOT!! You clearly don't know what you are taking about!! The subjunctive only means potential or possibility. And your ridiculous leap from the aorist to the present tense is hilarious, at least. Jesus is making the point that from believing in Him (drinking) as a possibility means the person WILL NEVER THIRST AGAIN. But your eyes are closed to the truth of Scripture. You deny what Jesus was teaching. Basically, He taught that from the MOMENT of belief in Him, they would NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 says exactly that.
More misrepresentation? As shown earlier and in the previous section of this post, your disregarding context and application to the hypothetical. I have already posted that the subjunctive means hypothetical possibility from the start. The difference between the present and aorist subjunctive is one of aspect rather than of time this is my point in regards to John 4:14. The subjunctive mood is the verb form used to explore a hypothetical situation, (cause and effect) it is not based on time. Another words "if you do this, this will happen" which is a conditional action. I do not know why you cannot see this to be honest.
OK, so why haven't you answered my question about WHEN a person DOES receive eternal life? I cannot comment on your sentence above UNTIL I know what you think about WHEN a person receives the gift.
This was answered with a detailed scripture response on justification and sanctification in post # 221 linked or post # 225 and elsewhere. This is why I asked you do you know the difference between justification and sanctification according to the scripture that you refused to respond to. I asked you this question because our understanding of this subject matter addresses your question. All of God's promises are "conditional" to believing and following what Gods Word says (scripture support already provided; here and here linked). In justification we receive God's forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God as a free gift of Grace through faith and the promise of eternal life the moment we believe what God's Word says at this stage we are babes in Christ justified and forgiven for our sins because of our faith in Jesus who paid the penalty for our sins with his death so that we can be forgiven for our sins and be reconciled to God. Sanctification however is the work of a lifetime of Christian growth of believing and following what God's Word says and keeping our salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says. As we grow in grace and faith through a knowledge of God's Word we learn of Jesus through his Word, and take His yoke upon us following what his Word says *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30; John 17:17. As posted earlier if at any stage in our Christian walk we choose to "depart the faith" and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin we are no longer "believers believing" but have become "unbelievers not believing" and according to John 3:36 "unbelievers not believing" do not receive eternal life (see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199). Sanctification therefore is a work of a lifetime of believing and following what God's Word says and only those who endure temptation to the end receive everlasting life *James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:9; Matthew 10:22.
This passage does NOT teach loss of salvation. It teaches divine discipline.
Of course Hebrews 10:26-31 and Hebrews 6:4-8 "whose end is to be burned" teaches loss of salvation. Divine discipline to the unbelieving and the wicked is the loss of eternal life. The scriptures have already been provided in some detail in here in post # 5 linked. The scriptures provided in the linked post show that those who live in unbelief and sin do not receive everlasting life according to the scriptures. You may want to also have a read of Hebrews 3:8-19 which also warns us not to return to unbelief and sin.
Well, of course salvation is conditional. The single condition is trust in Christ for it. Acts 16:31
If you claim here that salvation is conditional (which I agree and have already shown from the scriptures) how can you say a "believer" can "depart the faith" (Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8) and return to unbelief becoming an "unbeliever" continuing in known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life? Is this person who has "departed the faith" in order to return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin trusting in God in your view?
Again, you are just horribly confused about those verses. There is NO WORDING that indicates that v.27 forms a condition for receiving eternal life. We do find the condition for receiving eternal life in John 5:24 however. Please stop trying to move the goal posts. I'm not talking about a promise. I'm talking about the ACTUALL possession of the gift. Jesus said in John 10:28 "I GIVE THEM eternal life". So, do you know WHEN He does that, or do you not have a clue as to WHEN He does that?
Well there is no truth to those claims whatsoever. Of course it matters. As shown through the scriptures earlier your disregarding the scripture context of John 10:28 which points out who Jesus gives eternal life to. John 10:26-27 shows that the promise of eternal life is only given to those who "believe and follow" him. Those who believe not are not God's sheep. Those who believe and follow are Gods' sheep and it is those who believe and follow that God gives eternal life to. This is not very hard. If we are not believing and following what God's Word says we do not receive eternal life because we are not God's sheep.

Take Care dear friend.
 
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This is repetition here of your words that disagree with the scriptures that are Gods Word that disagree with your teachings without showing why you disagree. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29) so I guess we will agree to disagree.
So I guess you actually don't know WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life.

Otherwise, you'd have provided an answer to the question.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Then why argue that the aroist in John 4:14 proves that you cannot lose your salvation when the scriptures contexts are conditional to receiving Gods' Word and Gods' Word remaining "in us" that believe it and try and claim the aroist use in John 4:14 proves we cannot depart the faith into unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life when the scriptures teach the exact opposite *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8)?
Your very long sentence here is totally unbiblical.

None of the verses you cite or quote even say what you keep claiming.

If the gift of eternal life could be (subjunctive) removed, there would be a verse that actually says so. And you haven't shown any. So why believe your claims?

According to the scriptures, we must continue "believing" and "following" God's Word to the end in order to receive eternal life.
Well, this seems to be the closest you've yet come to actually providing an answer to my question. And now we have your answer.

And, as I expected, not even close to what the Bible says.

this is what you said: "we must continue believing and following God's word TO THE END in order to receive life".

You couldn't be more wrong. Your comment shows that you believe that the gift of eternal life is received AT THE END OF one's life.

Well, your opinion is in direct contradiction to what Jesus said in John 5:24.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Since you love the Greek present tense so much, you should really love this verse.

The verb "believes" is a present tense, and the words "has eternal life" is also present tense.

But, apparently you have no ide what that all means, since you think the gift is given at the END of one's life.

Well, those who believe POSSESS etenal life. That's what Jesus said. That means the very MOMENT a person puts their faith in Christ for salvation, they POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE.

And you can't prove otherwise. So John 10:28 refers to believers, who are the ones who receive the gift of eternal life. And so from the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life and shall never perish.

The scriptures do not teach anywhere that we can choose to "depart the faith" and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and receive everlasting life.
Where you keep going off the rails with your unbiblical opinions, is that a believer receives and possesses eternal life WHEN they believe on Christ.That is exactly what John 5:24 says.

This is because those doing this are no longer "believers" who are "believing" but are now "unbelievers" who are "unbelieving".
More unsubstantiated opinion. Where does the Bible describe a former believer as an unbeliever? But it doesn't matter. We know from John 5:24 that from the MOMENT one believes they POSSESS eternal life. And therefore, they shall never perish, as Jesus said in John 10:28.

This was already pointed out to you in over 100+ scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of John 4:4 (see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199).
You shot yourself in the foot when you claimed that eternal life is received at the end.

No, it's not. It is received WHEN a person believes in Christ. John 5:24

Now seriously, think about your argument.
You need to do that with your own failed argument. And since you have finally answered my question, we all know your answer is in direct contrast with Scripture.

The gift of eternal life is received when one believes.


Are you seriously going to try and argue that we can believe God and depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life?
My view is that a person receives the gift of eternal life WHEN they believe, as John 5:24 clearly shows.

This teaching is not biblical or is it supported in the scriptures.
That would be your teaching.

how can you say a "believer" can "depart the faith" (Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8) and return to unbelief becoming an "unbeliever" continuing in known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life?
Eternal life is received WHEN one believes in Christ for it. That's the point.

Thanks for finally revealing your answer to the question of when a person receives the gift of eternal life.

And I've shown from John 5:24 that your view is totally unbiblical.

Eternal life is NOT received at the end of their life. It's received the MOMENT they believe.

iow, the MOMENT one becomes a Christian, they shall never perish.
 
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So I guess you actually don't know WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life. Otherwise, you'd have provided an answer to the question.

Well that is not true your question was answered with a detailed scripture response in regards to justification and sanctification. I guess you just did not like the answers and the questions that were provided that disagree with your teachings from post # 221 linked or post # 225 and once again in post # 257 linked. This is why I asked you do you know the difference between justification and sanctification according to the scripture that you refused to respond to. I asked you this question because our understanding of this subject matter addresses your question. All of God's promises are "conditional" to believing and following what Gods Word says (scripture support already provided; here and here linked). In justification we receive God's forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God as a free gift of Grace through faith and the promise of eternal life the moment we believe what God's Word says at this stage we are babes in Christ justified and forgiven for our sins because of our faith in Jesus who paid the penalty for our sins with his death so that we can be forgiven for our sins and be reconciled to God. Sanctification however is the work of a lifetime of Christian growth of believing and following what God's Word says and keeping our salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says. As we grow in grace and faith through a knowledge of God's Word we learn of Jesus through his Word, and take His yoke upon us following what his Word says *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30; John 17:17. As posted earlier if at any stage in our Christian walk we choose to "depart the faith" and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin we are no longer "believers believing" but have become "unbelievers not believing" and according to John 3:36 "unbelievers not believing" do not receive eternal life (see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199). Sanctification therefore is a work of a lifetime of believing and following what God's Word says and only those who endure temptation to the end receive everlasting life *James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:9; Matthew 10:22.

Take Care dear friend.
 
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