Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Timtofly

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I agree, the time of Jacob's trouble wasn't the Babylonian captivity. The best pointer to that time is here:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It happened at a time when MANY but not all of them that slept in the dust awoke. That happened here:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
The OD was the same week. Why would Jesus only be focused on that week as being great tribulation?

Daniel 12 was only partially fulfilled, which is the whole point of more than one resurrection. Only the OT saints came out of Abraham's bosom. The rest at that point would have to wait 3000 years.

If one is not going to allow for more than one resurrection, how does the resurrection at the Cross fit?
 
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Bob_1000

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LOL. How? Just because you say?
Jeremiah said so. In the day of Jacobs trouble is when God raised up David their king.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Of course it is if a person dies still in a saved state, not in a fallen state instead, or that they are still in a saved state, not a fallen state instead, when Christ returns. Salvation is eternal in their case, no doubt about it. Not everyone might still be in a saved state when they die though, or when Christ returns, thus NOSAS. I already know what the argument likely is. Ppl like I'm describing, they were never saved to begin with.

Matthew 24 states that he that shall endure to the end shall be saved. Most things have to have an opposite. What is the opposite of that? He that shall not endure to the end shall not be saved, thus NOSAS. I take the end to be meaning the end of one's life or the 2nd coming, whichever one might happen in each person's case.

For these reasons alone the first resurrection can't be meaning something that spiritually happens to someone in this age. If one falls away, thus loses their salvation, thus, don't endure to the end, this contradicts pretty much everything recorded in Revelation 20:6, such as being blessed and holy, those who have part in the first resurrection.
David, are you blessed and holy right now?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

If you understand that this verse applies to all Christians then you would acknowledge that you are blessed and holy right now, as are all Christians. But, despite currently being blessed and holy, you wouldn't be blessed and holy any longer if you lost your salvation, right? So, that proves what you said above that "the first resurrection can't be meaning something that spiritually happens to someone in this age" is clearly false.

Such as the 2nd death having no power over you.
Does the second death have power over you right now? If not, then why would you try to say that it can't refer to "something that spiritually happens to someone in this age"?
Such as being priests to God and Christ.
Are you not a priest to God and Christ right now (Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9)? If you believe what verses like Revelation 1:5-6 and 1 Peter 2:9 say then you would know that you are. So, why would you say that can't be "meaning something that spiritually happens to someone in this age"?

The problem here is that you are assuming that having part in the first resurrection means you can't lose your part in the first resurrection and that's why you think believing in NOSAS isn't compatible with Amil. But, where does Revelation 20:6 say that someone can't lose their part in the first resurrection? You are only assuming that. There are some verses that say we HAVE eternal life because of having faith in Christ, such as John 3:36 and John 5:24. So, do verses like those disprove NOSAS since they say we have eternal life through faith in Christ and they don't indicate that someone can lose their faith and salvation? If not, then how can a verse like Revelation 20:6 prove that someone can't lose their part in the first resurrection?

How can all of those things apply to someone one day and the next day they no longer do, meaning if they fall away?
Why wouldn't they? They all apply to you and I right now. If we fall away tomorrow they would not apply to us anymore. What is hard to understand about that? From the Amil perspective, saying that someone has part in the first resurrection today, but not tomorrow is no different than saying that someone can be saved today and not saved tomorrow.

You think that NOSAS can't be compatible with Amil only because of assumptions that you make about what Revelation 20:6 is saying. But, you don't make similar assumptions about verses like John 3:36 and John 5:24 when it comes to salvation. Why is that? You're not being consistent with how you interpret scripture.

As it relates to OSAS vs. NOSAS, you don't draw conclusions from just one verse, but when it comes to Premil vs Amil, you're drawing conclusions from just one verse, Revelation 20:6, without taking any other scripture into account. Drawing conclusions the way you do about Revelation 20:6 is no different than if someone drew the conclusion that NOSAS is impossible because of what it says in John 3:36 without taking any other scripture into account.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Jeremiah said so. In the day of Jacobs trouble is when God raised up David their king.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

It was talking about captivity in that day and looking forward to Christ. That was a repeated OT expectation.
 
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Bob_1000

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The OD was the same week. Why would Jesus only be focused on that week as being great tribulation?

Daniel 12 was only partially fulfilled, which is the whole point of more than one resurrection. Only the OT saints came out of Abraham's bosom. The rest at that point would have to wait 3000 years.

If one is not going to allow for more than one resurrection, how does the resurrection at the Cross fit?
The resurrection at the cross was the only resurrection needed because the resurrection had nothing to do with raising dead earthy bodies. The resurrection was the raising of souls from the condition we're born in (dead) to eternal life. 1 Corinthians 15 explains how the soul and not the body is raised in the resurrection.

That's why in Daniel 12 and Matthew 27 only SOME that slept in the dust of the earth arose. I'm pretty sure the reason for that was because God is merciful and he gave the Jews every sign and miracle possible to help them see. And it was also a very clever way to hide what the real resurrection was all about.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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There have been millions if not billions of different resurrections since Jesus made that promise.
This statement right here tells us all we need to know about you. You don't have a clue.

Scripture is clear that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead unto bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:20;22, Acts 26:23, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). No one else has been raised unto bodily immortality yet. Scripture is VERY CLEAR that the dead in Christ will all be raised to bodily immortality at His second coming which will occur at the last trumpet.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Sorry, but the millions or billions that you think have already been resurrected are still dead. They will be resurrected at Christ's future second coming at the last trumpet.
 
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Bob_1000

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This statement right here tells us all we need to know about you. You don't have a clue.

Scripture is clear that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead unto bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:20;22, Acts 26:23, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). No one else has been raised unto bodily immortality yet. Scripture is VERY CLEAR that the dead in Christ will all be raised to bodily immortality at His second coming which will occur at the last trumpet.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Sorry, but the millions or billions that you think have already been resurrected are still dead. They will be resurrected at Christ's future second coming at the last trumpet.
Timtofly's waaaaay more right than you are. Christians NEVER DIE. There is no such thing as the dead in Christ AFTER the cross. Timtofly may not know it but he's speaking of the translation of the believer into the glorified body just prior to the death of this earthly body.
 
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sovereigngrace

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If you don't believe the words of Jeremiah there's nothing more I can say.

In your opinion:

· When did/does the old covenant end?
· When did/does the new covenant begin?
· When did/does "the last days" begin?
· When will "the last days" finish?
· When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
· What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?
· When is the "end of the age"?
· When is the day of redemption?
· When did/does "this age" arrive?
· When did/does "this age" end?
· When did/does the new heavens and new earth arrive?
· When did the kingdom of God begin?
· When did/does "the age to come" arrive?
· Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
· Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
· Is the judgment of all a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?

· Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?
 
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Bob_1000

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I don't believe what you are attributing to it. Notably you totally sidestepped the evidence above.
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
You say this was the Babylonian captivity.

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
You say this is the Babylonian captivity.

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
This is a continuation of the statement in verse 8, why does this go forward to the first advent of Christ? Is there something in the grammar that makes you think this? If so what is it?
 
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Bob_1000

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In your opinion:

· When did/does the old covenant end?
· When did/does the new covenant begin?
· When did/does "the last days" begin?
· When will "the last days" finish?
· When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
· What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?
· When is the "end of the age"?
· When is the day of redemption?
· When did/does "this age" arrive?
· When did/does "this age" end?
· When did/does the new heavens and new earth arrive?
· When did the kingdom of God begin?
· When did/does "the age to come" arrive?
· Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
· Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
· Is the judgment of all a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?

· Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?
I’m not here to discuss what I believe I’m here to discuss the Bible.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I’m not here to discuss what I believe I’m here to discuss the Bible.

What most of us believe is actually taken from the Bible. If that is not your case then we obviously differ on a lot.
 
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Timtofly

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I'm not sure what you're getting at, I didn't say Revelation 20 was about Jesus dying on the cross in that post. In my opinion Rev 20:4 is a view of Abraham's bosom at the time the OT saints were raised from the dead with Christ. All of that happened before God came against Gog and Magog. God came against Gog just prior to here:

Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD

Obviously that's a reference to Pentecost.
The point of the Cross is about Jesus Christ, not the resurrection that just happened after Armageddon.

Yes there was a resurrection because of the Cross. So Revelation 20:4 cannot be the resurrection at the time of the Cross. Jesus just came riding on a white horse. That is not literal nor figurative of dying on the Cross. Armageddon is not Gog Magog. Not even close.
 
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Timtofly's waaaaay more right than you are. Christians NEVER DIE. There is no such thing as the dead in Christ AFTER the cross. Timtofly may not know it but he's speaking of the translation of the believer into the glorified body just prior to the death of this earthly body.
It looks like you have no clue of what you're talking about, either. Where do you guys get your doctrine from? It's certainly not taught anywhere in scripture.

Paul clearly was talking about a future event in the following passage. Something that would obviously happen AFTER the cross.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If you can't even discern that Paul was talking about a future event in the passage above then you must be completely lacking in discernment.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Timtofly's waaaaay more right than you are. Christians NEVER DIE. There is no such thing as the dead in Christ AFTER the cross. Timtofly may not know it but he's speaking of the translation of the believer into the glorified body just prior to the death of this earthly body.

Heb 9
but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Romans 8:23
And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body.

2Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Also see post 296
 
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Bob_1000

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The point of the Cross is about Jesus Christ, not the resurrection that just happened after Armageddon.

Yes there was a resurrection because of the Cross. So Revelation 20:4 cannot be the resurrection at the time of the Cross. Jesus just came riding on a white horse. That is not literal nor figurative of dying on the Cross. Armageddon is not Gog Magog. Not even close.
There's only one resurrection and it happened on the LAST DAY. Daniel 12 tells us that the LAST DAY was when MANY but NOT ALL that slept in the dust of the earth awoke. This is pretty straight forward. The last day was the last day Jesus was in the heart of the earth.

As far as Gog and Magog goes, the book of Revelation is very cryptic and can only be understood from other parts of the bible. Gog and Magog is an attack against Jerusalem. God was finished with Jerusalem and the nation of Israel forever when Christ came, and in 70 AD Jerusalem was destroyed... Gog and Magog CAN NOT happen after 70 AD.
 
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Bob_1000

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It looks like you have no clue of what you're talking about, either. Where do you guys get your doctrine from? It's certainly not taught anywhere in scripture.

Paul clearly was talking about a future event in the following passage. Something that would obviously happen AFTER the cross.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If you can't even discern that Paul was talking about a future event in the passage above then you must be completely lacking in discernment.
Paul is taking about both a future event and a past event, he's giving a summary of the translation of the believer.

The past part was the translation of the OT saints into their heavenly bodies. They died in their sins and could not receive the inheritance. They were the DEAD IN CHRIST.

The future part is the translation of NT saints when it's time for us to leave this earthly body. NT testament saints do not experience death in any way shape or form.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I'm trying to explain to you that the DEAD IN CHRIST can only be those who died BEFORE Christ came because NT Christians NEVER DIE.... Do you believe this?
 
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Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching. That is because the tenses expose Premil.

Jesus is reigning now

For example, Scripture shows that Jesus is reigning now over creation, His people and all His enemies. It is shown to be in the present ongoing tense. Most Premillennialists reject this as it messes with their belief-system. However, 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 states: he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. “

Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death, when Jesus comes!

Ephesians 1:20-22 tells us that God hath raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet.”

Here is a very important passage that again confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high, until the occasion when He finally makes them His footstool – namely His one final future all-consummating Coming. God hath now “put all things (not some) under his feet.” And so as to leave no ambiguity to the reader, we find Paul explaining the fact that Christ’s rule includes both the whole natural and spiritual realm: “all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

Hebrews 2:7-8 says, Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 'Thou hast put all things in subjection' (aorist active indicative) under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection (aorist active indicative) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Jesus is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority.

Believers are reigning now

Another example (of many) how Premillennialists reject the tenses in the original Greek, involves the redeemed currently functioning as kings and priests. The Bible shows God’s people reigning now. Ephesians 2:4-6 says, God … hath raised us up together (aorist active indicative), and made us sit together (aorist active indicative) in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Believers are citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21). They are seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:4-6, 11-14, 3:1). They now rule and reign with Him in life and in death.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows what we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” – which is reigning in delegated authority will be realized in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s Coming. The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvelous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realized these heavenly privileges.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying,they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth (v. 9).

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice and intercede for the people. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

Revelation 20:4-5 says, And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (aorist active indicative) unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

The dead in Christ are therefore no longer in Abraham’s bosom since the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven reigning with Christ. Basically, as Satan was banished and the elect were welcomed.

Believers are already partaking in the first resurrection

A final example will reinforce my thesis. John is describing the current reality of believers already partaking in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The first
resurrection is shown elsewhere throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5). The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

The duplicity of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used, Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

We see victory over the second death in this age through the new birth. Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It wins us victory over eternal death. It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.

Yes, great thread! Lot's of good points! (Some of which I didn't know / hadn't looked up.)
 
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