God, not convinced.

Tellyontellyon said:

Hi, I've been thinking about what I find difficult about Theistic religions... And it's God. Basically, I don't believe in a creator God.

I grew up with a very scientifically orientated way of thinking and always dismissed the possibility of God, or anything spiritual, out of hand. I was open to the possibility of psychic experiences though.

As an adult, I had some stressful times and got into meditation and then Buddhism.

Although Buddhism includes being open to things like, rebirth and karma, invisible beings of various sorts, heaven, hell, demons and suchlike... it's possible to get by without believing those things...

However, over the years I find myself able to believe in this things in a way a strict materialist never would!

So... what stops me believing in God? What reason do I have for continuing to dismiss that possibility? I know it's not a Buddhist belief, but that's not a good reason not to believe in it. Buddhism tells us we shouldn't be attached to our own opinions, so I need to keep an open mind about this...

I think the old materialist part of me still holds sway, at least in the God area, and this is because I haven't heard a good argument about why it ought to be true?

I'm not looking for an argument, or asking you to 'convince me' in some cocky way, where I'm out to prove you wrong... but I do need to be convinced and to hear the best arguments for the existence of God.

So... um... come on... Convince me!

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It simply comes down to "need".
I need to believe in a Creator and you do not need to belive in a Creator.
Kind of basic but true.
Blessings.

Tellyontellyon said:

Maybe I do need to believe in a creator, but haven't had it convincingly put to me yet?

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A full glass is better than a glass that is half full or half empty. Our humanity has two sides , one physical and one spiritual. How can one live the fullness of life when they only exist in half measures? God gave us His fullness. We either take what He has given us or we reject it. God knows your heart and knows you seek Him diligently.

Tellyontellyon said:

So... what stops me believing in God? What reason do I have for continuing to dismiss that possibility? I know it's not a Buddhist belief, but that's not a good reason not to believe in it. Buddhism tells us we shouldn't be attached to our own opinions, so I need to keep an open mind about this...

I think the old materialist part of me still holds sway, at least in the God area, and this is because I haven't heard a good argument about why it ought to be true?

Click to expand...

I think you're onto something there. I would point to the idea of a Primary Cause or Prime Mover to appeal to your rational side, and ask you what your objection is to this, but it's still not enough to bridge the gap from materialism to faith.

Faith in my experience is very much internal, and experienced as sense perception, provides an experiential basis for belief and knowledge of the existence of the divine. You have to be willing to move toward empiricism, away from rationalism and materialism, to approach the things that are described in the texts of christianity.

What convinces you that God exists is a personal thing, and there are various reasons why people come to the realization that God exists. Your point of clarity on God's existence is most likely unique to you.

I'll tell you what solidified it for me. It wasn't the impossible complexity of our known reality. It wasn't the beauty of nature. God didn't speak to me directly, or appear in front of me.

Two things happened that convinced me that God exists.

1. When my father passed away, what should have been grief and despair turned into the deepest love I've ever felt in my life. There was no reason for that love to well within me. In my father I saw the man who raised me, who made me the man I am. Of course I loved my father, but this was something different. It was like all I could feel was love at the time, and it greatly overshadowed any grief. It was life-changing. I can only attribute what I felt to a supernatural event. I truly believe that God was with me during that time, despite the fact I was not a professing Christian. I believe God showed me utmost love, so that I would understand Him when the time game some 8 years later.
2. After my father's death, I began to look more into the meaning of life. I searched for proof of God in places I knew the Christian God wouldn't be, so that if there was some other explanation, I would find it. Each place I looked and vetted only pointed farther down a narrowing path toward belief in the existence of God, even though I didn't recognize it at the time. The epiphany came when I realized the extent to which Satan has gone to enslave the world. Freedom is an illusion. Entertainment is satanic indoctrination. A satanic agenda moves forward no matter what political party is in power, no matter what President is the figurehead. The way Satan has a grip on this world is shockingly complete. Not only the ongoing agenda, but the blatant worship of Satan by the powers that be and people who achieve great success and fame. The realization of these things point to Satan's existence, therefore, God exists. Once I came to this conclusion, and surrendered myself to God (full belief, in prayer), the floodgates of the understanding that God had been working in my life, even when I did not profess Him, became apparent.

Whatever it is that convinces you that God exists I can't say. The Bible says to seek and you will find. To knock and the door will be opened to you. If you do these things, with a sincere heart, I have no doubt that you will find the answers you seek, in the time God has appointed for it to happen.

You can not get something from nothing. science is the study of creation.

Tellyontellyon said:

So... um... come on... Convince me!

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No

I hear that with Buddhism as well as it's parent religion of Hinduism that a person can be all of the major deistic positions/theologies of religion: polytheism, pantheism, monotheism etc. even atheism. Is that you an atheistic Buddhist?

Study the creation and it will reveal the creator. Of course this requires intellectual honesty.

"What's a slug got to do to achieve a higher level of consciousness, lay down a perfect line of slime?" MIB

Freth said:

What convinces you that God exists is a personal thing, and there are various reasons why people come to the realization that God exists. Your point of clarity on God's existence is most likely unique to you.

I'll tell you what solidified it for me. It wasn't the impossible complexity of our known reality. It wasn't the beauty of nature. God didn't speak to me directly, or appear in front of me.

Two things happened that convinced me that God exists.

1. When my father passed away, what should have been grief and despair turned into the deepest love I've ever felt in my life. There was no reason for that love to well within me. In my father I saw the man who raised me, who made me the man I am. Of course I loved my father, but this was something different. It was like all I could feel was love at the time, and it greatly overshadowed any grief. It was life-changing. I can only attribute what I felt to a supernatural event. I truly believe that God was with me during that time, despite the fact I was not a professing Christian. I believe God showed me utmost love, so that I would understand Him when the time game some 8 years later.
2. After my father's death, I began to look more into the meaning of life. I searched for proof of God in places I knew the Christian God wouldn't be, so that if there was some other explanation, I would find it. Each place I looked and vetted only pointed farther down a narrowing path toward belief in the existence of God, even though I didn't recognize it at the time. The epiphany came when I realized the extent to which Satan has gone to enslave the world. Freedom is an illusion. Entertainment is satanic indoctrination. A satanic agenda moves forward no matter what political party is in power, no matter what President is the figurehead. The way Satan has a grip on this world is shockingly complete. Not only the ongoing agenda, but the blatant worship of Satan by the powers that be and people who achieve great success and fame. The realization of these things point to Satan's existence, therefore, God exists. Once I came to this conclusion, and surrendered myself to God (full belief, in prayer), the floodgates of the understanding that God had been working in my life, even when I did not profess Him, became apparent.

Whatever it is that convinces you that God exists I can't say. The Bible says to seek and you will find. To knock and the door will be opened to you. If you do these things, with a sincere heart, I have no doubt that you will find the answers you seek, in the time God has appointed for it to happen.

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You wrote, "The epiphany came when I realized the extent to which Satan has gone to enslave the world. Freedom is an illusion. Entertainment is satanic indoctrination. A satanic agenda moves forward no matter what political party is in power, no matter what President is the figurehead. The way Satan has a grip on this world is shockingly complete. Not only the ongoing agenda, but the blatant worship of Satan by the powers that be and people who achieve great success and fame. The realization of these things point to Satan's existence, therefore, God exists."

I find this both wrong and depressing.

1) Freedom is most definitely not an illusion. Galatians 5:1a, "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free."
2) What is your basis that "Entertainment is satanic indoctrination"? There is much entertainment, including Christian music, that is not satanic indoctrination. Would you classify a symphony by Brahms, for example, as Satanic?
3) A satanic agenda moves forward no matter what political party is in power? Why does the Bible not mention this? Paul wrote "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended." Romans 13:1-7
4) There is no basis for your opinion that "the blatant worship of Satan by the powers that be and people who achieve great success and fame". Neither the powers that be or those who achieve great success and fame are blatant worshipers of Satan. That is sheer jealousy IMHO. Even though they're not perfect, democracies are created and maintained by the people, including the US Christians. Great success and fame are generally achieved by exceptional vision and hard work, including by Christians.
5) "The realization of these things point to Satan's existence, therefore, God exists." Satan exists, therefore God exists? There is no logic in that statement.

I agree with your final paragraph...

Whatever it is that convinces you that God exists I can't say. The Bible says to seek and you will find. To knock and the door will be opened to you. If you do these things, with a sincere heart, I have no doubt that you will find the answers you seek, in the time God has appointed for it to happen.

... even though it stands in great contrast to the negative thoughts that precede it.

As far as the OP goes... @Tellyontellyon will be convinced of the existence of God through continual reading of the Bible, prayer, a willingness to follow the teachings of God, and practicing loving God and loving their neighbor.

Palmfever said:

"What's a slug got to do to achieve a higher level of consciousness, lay down a perfect line of slime?" MIB

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Lol. Maybe the lower realms are meant to teach their occupants to 'go with the flow'? Perhaps, it's not so much about what is done, but what is left undone. Sort of like Purgatory in Roman Catholicism, where merit can no longer be obtained.

If you reject creation and the creator and you reject God! If you reject God in this life, you won't be spending the next life in eternity with Him, so the only other alternative is eternity in hell. Rejecting Him is also rejecting the price He paid for you on the cross, which is punished by eternity in hell. The only way to get out of hell is not to go there in the first place. Hell is for all eternity, it never ends. You don't just cease to exist! Read your bible and find out.

Also read Romans 1:19-22 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shown it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the World are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

As someone has already indicated to you, there is a choice to be made. Make sure that you know what you are choosing. Not choosing God is automatically choosing the alternative. You either choose to spend eternity with God, or eternity with the Devil in the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:10 & Revelation 20:15).

pescador: 1) Freedom is most definitely not an illusion. Galatians 5:1a, "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free."

pescador: 2) What is your basis that "Entertainment is satanic indoctrination"? There is much entertainment, including Christian music, that is not satanic indoctrination. Would you classify a symphony by Brahms, for example, as Satanic?


pescador: 3) A satanic agenda moves forward no matter what political party is in power? Why does the Bible not mention this?


pescador: 4) There is no basis for your opinion that "the blatant worship of Satan by the powers that be and people who achieve great success and fame".


pescador: 5) "The realization of these things point to Satan's existence, therefore, God exists." Satan exists, therefore God exists? There is no logic in that statement.

Tellyontellyon said:

Hi, I've been thinking about what I find difficult about Theistic religions... And it's God. Basically, I don't believe in a creator God.

I grew up with a very scientifically orientated way of thinking and always dismissed the possibility of God, or anything spiritual, out of hand. I was open to the possibility of psychic experiences though.

As an adult, I had some stressful times and got into meditation and then Buddhism.

Although Buddhism includes being open to things like, rebirth and karma, invisible beings of various sorts, heaven, hell, demons and suchlike... it's possible to get by without believing those things...

However, over the years I find myself able to believe in these things in a way a strict materialist never would!

So... what stops me believing in God? What reason do I have for continuing to dismiss that possibility? I know it's not a Buddhist belief, but that's not a good reason not to believe in it. Buddhism tells us we shouldn't be attached to our own opinions, so I need to keep an open mind about this...

I think the old materialist part of me still holds sway, at least in the God area, and this is because I haven't heard a good argument about why it ought to be true?

I'm not looking for an argument, or asking you to 'convince me' in some cocky way, where I'm out to prove you wrong... but I do need to be convinced and to hear the best arguments for the existence of God.

So... um... come on... Convince me!

Click to expand...

Materialism is a self defeating proposition, because it is an idea, and ideas are not made of matter. So I can see why you’ve moved away from it. However, we are all prone to cling to what we grew up with, so I can see why it still holds influence in your thoughts.

The best I can offer is that nothing can make itself, so everything we see must have been made by something, and the more complicated something is, the more intelligence is required to make it. You are very intelligent! All mankind is—compare to any other creature you know. So a much more intelligent being would be required to make mankind. We’ll call that intelligent being “God”. If mankind can love each other (even though there is also hate in the world), then the God, our maker, must also know how to love. Can we see His live in action? Yes, in numerous ways, like having day and night cycles for activity and rest, or rainy and dry periods for watering and working the land so we can grow food and be sustained, or having trees and vines and plants and animals that can be harvested for food.
Would God talk to us? Or walk with us? He did and he does, but you may have to have a little faith in him before you recognize his attempts. One of the most obvious is the Bible, where people have recorded many of those times where God has walked with and talked to mankind.

What is mankind’s biggest problem? I would suggest that it is death, something the Bible tells us was not part of God’s original creation, but started when mankind chose to ignore what God told them to do—we call this sin. But then God made a way for mankind to defeat his biggest enemy, death.
God’s method of defeating death shows his great love for us, in that while we were powerless to stop death from happening, God sent his only son, Jesus Christ, who was with God when he made the universe, to become a humble and limited man, and then to die, even though he always did what God told him to. Because of that obedience, and the fact that he was not deserving of death, when he died, he was brought back to life a few days later, and the same power over death is promised to those who believe what I’ve written above.

Tellyontellyon said:

But surely, if you give thanks to God for it then it glorifies God? Give God the glory for it... recognise that God made it possible... Even a beautiful piece of music.

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This is a slippery slope. I could thank God for video games, then justify my enjoyment of them. Aside from the thanks I gave to God, the games themselves do not glorify God, and most likely have me breaking commandments in-game, like killing, for instance. Killing virtually for entertainment.

Granted, a classical piece of music has no such reference point to go on, aside from the music itself, and the composer's intent (secular, most likely). But then, we're told not to love the world (1 John 2:15). What is safe and what is not? What is truly glorifying God and what is not? Each person must decide.

I have a large music collection that I don't listen to, because I can't justify it.

Tellyontellyon said:

Hi, I've been thinking about what I find difficult about Theistic religions... And it's God. Basically, I don't believe in a creator God.

I grew up with a very scientifically orientated way of thinking and always dismissed the possibility of God, or anything spiritual, out of hand. I was open to the possibility of psychic experiences though.

As an adult, I had some stressful times and got into meditation and then Buddhism.

Although Buddhism includes being open to things like, rebirth and karma, invisible beings of various sorts, heaven, hell, demons and suchlike... it's possible to get by without believing those things...

However, over the years I find myself able to believe in these things in a way a strict materialist never would!

So... what stops me believing in God? What reason do I have for continuing to dismiss that possibility? I know it's not a Buddhist belief, but that's not a good reason not to believe in it. Buddhism tells us we shouldn't be attached to our own opinions, so I need to keep an open mind about this...

I think the old materialist part of me still holds sway, at least in the God area, and this is because I haven't heard a good argument about why it ought to be true?

I'm not looking for an argument, or asking you to 'convince me' in some cocky way, where I'm out to prove you wrong... but I do need to be convinced and to hear the best arguments for the existence of God.

So... um... come on... Convince me!

Click to expand...

science cannot prove God and neither can it disprove God. God is set in a place outside of the boundaries of the universe and the physical since he is the author of these things so science cannot see God.

With that in mind, there is no physical or scientific evidence that will prove God but at best we can point to a spot that science can't answer to show a place where God has interjected like for example the cause behind the big bang.

This is my interpretation but you seem to approach faith, in your case Buddhism, transactionally. You take what you want from it and reject the other parts that don't serve you and because on some level, it allows this you keep going in this direction. If this is the case then faith is no more than a pill; a prescription to make life easier or more tolerable or scratch some sort of itch but outside of this faith has no purpose. Christianity in this case has no value to you because it requires a commitment to accept a biblical presentation of Christ. Christ instructs us "whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves" (Mat 16:24). for you to deny yourself would mean to lay down your hesitations of Jesus and follow him anyways. How do you follow him? Start by reading the gospels and ask yourself if this is true what can I do to obey this? If you refuse to "deny yourself" then this posture is incompatible with following Jesus.

When we consider that the universe had a beginning, then someone or something must have caused it to begin. Who or what began it? And who or what began what began it? Eventually, there's going to be someone or something that didn't have a beginning, and had the power to set all this in motion. This would function as God does for us. Must it be powerful? Of course. Intelligent enough to design things? Yes, unless you want to claim that it's random chance, which is at least as much of a leap of faith as it is to believe in our God. Could it be several gods working together? Logically possible, but I believe that the world and universe we have is too ordered for that.