Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

DavidPT

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John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

This passage indicates that those who believe in Christ have crossed over from death (being spiritually dead in sins) to life (spiritual life).

Now, compare that passage to this verse:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Would you agree that in the case of those who believe in Christ and have crossed over from spiritual death (being dead in sins) to life, the second death has no power over them?


No I wouldn't agree, and one reason why I wouldn't is because a lot of things can happen after that. Such as, one could fall away, thus NOSAS. How can the 2nd death have no power over someone initially saved then they fall away, and still have no power over them? You're of the NOSAS camp. I would think you should grasp my point then. I don't expect anyone of the OSAS camp to grasp my point, but you are not of that camp, though.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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For the saved at either their resurrection or at the rapture.

For the unsaved at the Great White Throne Judgement.
Jesus said both happen at the end of the age. You are just completely ignoring what He said in favor of what you want to be the case.

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I guarantee that you did not read this passage carefully at all because in no way, shape or form did Jesus indicate that the unsaved will be judged long after the saved receive eternal life. Instead, He said that both will happen at the end of the age.

Look at verses 47 and 48. Jesus tells a parable about a fishing net being put into the water and it caught all kinds of fish. Only when it was full was it pulled up to shore. It was full with all of the fish in it, good and bad. You apparently ignored that part. The time that the net becomes full equates to the end of the age. It is only at that time (and not at that time as well as 1000+ years later as you believe) that the wicked are thrown into the blazing furnace, which is the same event as Revelation 20:15 while the righteous are rewarded with inheriting the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus clearly indicated that these things will happen at the same time because His parable talks about the fish being collected all at the same time with the good fish being collected in baskets which equates to the righteous/saved inheriting the kingdom, and the bad fish being thrown away which represents the unsaved/wicked being cast into the blazing furnace.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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No I wouldn't agree, and one reason why I wouldn't is because a lot of things can happen after that. Such as, one could fall away, thus NOSAS. How can the 2nd death have no power over someone initially saved then they fall away, and still have no power over them?
I'm not talking about that. Once again, you're failing to see the point. I'm talking about what is the case while someone is saved and while someone's soul is in heaven and whether or not the second death has power over someone in those cases.

You're of the NOSAS camp. I would think you should grasp my point then. I don't expect anyone of the OSAS camp to grasp my point, but you are not of that camp, though.
I did have a feeling you would bring this up, but you once again are missing the point. I'm talking about the reality of someone who is currently saved. You and I are currently saved, right? Does the second death currently have power over us or not?

And what about those who are dead and whose souls are in heaven with Christ now. The OSAS vs. NOSAS debate has nothing to do with them since their destinies are sealed, right? So, does the second death have any power over them right now? No, right? How could it? It's not like there's still a chance that they could fall away. So, doesn't that mean they've already had part in the first resurrection? I believe so.

It's clear to me that Revelation 20:6 implies that one MUST have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them. That lines up well with Amil, but not with Premil since Amil believes that all believers have part in the first resurrection while Premils don't believe that all believers have part in the first resurrection.
 
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Douggg

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I guarantee that you did not read this passage carefully at all because in no way, shape or form did Jesus indicate that the unsaved will be judged long after the saved receive eternal life. Instead, He said that both will happen at the end of the age.
You restated and misunderstood what I wrote.

What I wrote was...

"For the saved at either their resurrection or at the rapture.

For the unsaved at the Great White Throne Judgement."

_______________________________________________

There are three resurrections unto eternal life that will involve Christians. (1)(2)(3) below.

But only one resurrection of the unsaved, which will be for the Great White throne Judgement (3).


(1) The rapture/resurrection event - before the great tribulation begins.
(2) The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

---------the millennial rule of Christ---------------------------

(3) The resurrection of everyone who do not take part in (1) or (2).
for the Great White Throne Judgment.

_________________________________________________________

You can make the resurrection question even more complicated by asking what about infants, and children, and them who never heard the gospel, and them not mentally competent?

All of those will be resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgement - and will receive eternal life, because of their situation makes them unaccountable.

I am sure that you believe that God is fair and merciful and doesn't judge unjustly.
 
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jeffweedaman

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I did have a feeling you would bring this up, but you once again are missing the point. I'm talking about the reality of someone who is currently saved. You and I are currently saved, right? Does the second death currently have power over us or not?

And what about those who are dead and whose souls are in heaven with Christ now. The OSAS vs. NOSAS debate has nothing to do with them since their destinies are sealed, right? So, does the second death have any power over them right now? No, right? How could it? It's not like there's still a chance that they could fall away. So, doesn't that mean they've already had part in the first resurrection? I believe so.

It's clear to me that Revelation 20:6 implies that one MUST have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them. That lines up well with Amil, but not with Premil since Amil believes that all believers have part in the first resurrection while Premils don't believe that all believers have part in the first resurrection.

I knew he would bring this up as he has in the past.
You dealt with it wonderfully well.
God bless.
 
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Douggg

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You and I are currently saved, right? Does the second death currently have power over us or not?
No. It does not.

It's clear to me that Revelation 20:6 implies that one MUST have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them.
What is written in Revelation 20:4-6, has no bearing on whether the second death has power over you, as an existing Christian.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Op Note

This has been a very one-sided discussion so far. I think it is fair to say: the evidence presented is irrefutable. That is because it is water-tight Scripture that can never be changed that proves the current unfolding of Revelation 20. All Premils can do here is avoid the obvious or complain about the original text. They have nothing else to work with.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No I wouldn't agree, and one reason why I wouldn't is because a lot of things can happen after that. Such as, one could fall away, thus NOSAS. How can the 2nd death have no power over someone initially saved then they fall away, and still have no power over them? You're of the NOSAS camp. I would think you should grasp my point then. I don't expect anyone of the OSAS camp to grasp my point, but you are not of that camp, though.

Simple! Because eternal salvation is biblical.
 
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Douggg

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Op Note

This has been a very one-sided discussion so far. I think it is fair to say: the evidence presented is irrefutable. That is because it is water-tight Scripture that can never be changed that proves the current unfolding of Revelation 20. All Premils can do here is avoid the obvious or complain about the original text. They have nothing else to work with.
The text says...

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

.... the ones that are the first resurrection are them who will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast, nor his image, nor taking his mark - expressly, them being resurrected.

The opening post copies and pastes the passage - but then totally ignores the text - and does not say one thing about it being expressly, or even casually, them who will be beheaded during the great tribulation.
 
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DavidPT

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Simple! Because eternal salvation is biblical.


Of course it is if a person dies still in a saved state, not in a fallen state instead, or that they are still in a saved state, not a fallen state instead, when Christ returns. Salvation is eternal in their case, no doubt about it. Not everyone might still be in a saved state when they die though, or when Christ returns, thus NOSAS. I already know what the argument likely is. Ppl like I'm describing, they were never saved to begin with.

Matthew 24 states that he that shall endure to the end shall be saved. Most things have to have an opposite. What is the opposite of that? He that shall not endure to the end shall not be saved, thus NOSAS. I take the end to be meaning the end of one's life or the 2nd coming, whichever one might happen in each person's case.

For these reasons alone the first resurrection can't be meaning something that spiritually happens to someone in this age. If one falls away, thus loses their salvation, thus, don't endure to the end, this contradicts pretty much everything recorded in Revelation 20:6, such as being blessed and holy, those who have part in the first resurrection. Such as the 2nd death having no power over you. Such as being priests to God and Christ. How can all of those things apply to someone one day and the next day they no longer do, meaning if they fall away? Premil does not have this problem. Everyone who have part in the first resurrection is meaning everyone that endures to the end. It is not meaning anyone that falls away.

NOSAS and Amil is not compatible. But I have already done a thread involving that subject in the past. NOSAS and Premil is compatible.
 
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Timtofly

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I will take your refusal to say as an admission that you or no Premils have addressed the Op.
I will take your refusal to answer all my post in this thread as the same admission to not having an answer in response.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes, and as a result one is not hurt by the final judgment.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.



REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


The Lords word doesnt contradict itself
Revelation 20:4 is a physical birth, not a physical resurrection then.
 
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Timtofly

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You completely missed his point. I think he already did a good job of making the point, but you apparently need it completely spelled out to you, so I'm going to try to do that.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

This passage indicates that those who believe in Christ have crossed over from death (being spiritually dead in sins) to life (spiritual life).

Now, compare that passage to this verse:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Would you agree that in the case of those who believe in Christ and have crossed over from spiritual death (being dead in sins) to life, the second death has no power over them?

There is a parallel between these passages. The way in which someone will not be judged (condemned) and in which the second death has no power over someone is after they have crossed over from spiritual death to spiritual life. So, that means sharing in (having part in) the first resurrection must be related to believing in Christ and passing over from spiritual death to spiritual life.

In the Premil way of looking at Revelation 20:6, it implies that someone must be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them. Is that true? No. The second death already has no power over those who are in Christ. People don't have to wait until they are bodily resurrected at His return in order for the second death to not have power over them. Do you understand that? That will already be the case long before that. That is the case for all who are in Christ, whether dead or alive, right now.
The point is that the verb tense starts in Revelation 1:12. Why compare the present with the whole book of Revelation. That is preterism.

The second birth is to spiritual life. The second birth prevents us from experiencing the second death. The first resurrection does the same thing, but yet the second birth and the first resurrection are two totally different things.

Jesus clearly states that all humanity needs both a physical birth and a spiritual birth. Yet many want to remain in the physical and die in the physical.

One can experience the second death even without the second birth. Unless you put into Revelation 20:12-15 all those dead just experienced the second birth standing before The GWT.

You have yet to prove they have physical bodies in this "alledged by amil" chapter is highly symbolic and not chronological at all. Does a second resurrection grant a physical body? Why settle that "first" and implied "second" are chronological, yet the "1000 years" is not chronological to the battle of Armageddon. Don't these people have to die at Armageddon so they can be resurrected later, chronologically?
 
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Timtofly

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While I agree that the rest of the dead will be resurrected after the thousand years, how does your three resurrection events belief line up with what Jesus taught here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

The first two alleged resurrection events you listed pertain only to believers. How does your belief line up with what Paul taught here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Paul taught that Christ was the first to be resurrected and all who are in Christ will be made alive when He comes. So, he only taught that there would be one future resurrection event relating to believers, not two. Your view clearly contradicts this passage.
You claim this verse is lacking two words: "then" is used twice and you skip right over them as if they do not exist.

Then: after that; next; afterward.

Christ the firstfruits: all the OT resurrected at the Cross. The last day the OT declared was the Cross. All those times they pointed out to Jesus about the last day resurrection, they unknowingly were talking about the Cross. There was a resurrection out of Abraham's bosom at the Cross. Paul told Jesus led those souls out of captivity. Matthew writes their physical bodies were seen by many in Jerusalem.

Then after that, next afterward

The Second Coming: those alive on the earth are resurrected. Out of a dead body into an incorruptible body.

Then after that, next afterward

At the end of the kingdom. That 1,000 year reign you all seem to place an "A" in front of. Christ is in charge, and it will get an "A+" rating.

Except that resurrection is the one to damnation. Those dead stand before God at the GWT. John does not even grace this event with the word resurrection, but Paul points out this final act when Christ hands back the earth, and then heaven and earth pass away, making way for the NHNE.

A time was coming. A time has come. A time will yet come. Jesus used the word time and hour, yes, but not a singular hour at a last day event. The Cross was just one of the last days mentioned in God's Word. Those in Abraham's bosom were waiting for those words, "It is finished".
 
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claninja

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Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching. That is because the tenses expose Premil.


Jesus is reigning now

For example, Scripture shows that Jesus is reigning now over creation, His people and all His enemies. It is shown to be in the present ongoing tense. Most Premillennialists reject this as it messes with their belief-system. However, 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 states: he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. “

Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death, when Jesus comes!

Ephesians 1:20-22 tells us that God hath raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet.”

Here is a very important passage that again confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high, until the occasion when He finally makes them His footstool – namely His one final future all-consummating Coming. God hath now “put all things (not some) under his feet.” And so as to leave no ambiguity to the reader, we find Paul explaining the fact that Christ’s rule includes both the whole natural and spiritual realm: “all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

Hebrews 2:7-8 says, Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 'Thou hast put all things in subjection' (aorist active indicative) under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection (aorist active indicative) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Jesus is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority.

Believers are reigning now

Another example (of many) how Premillennialists reject the tenses in the original Greek, involves the redeemed currently functioning as kings and priests. The Bible shows God’s people reigning now. Ephesians 2:4-6 says, God … hath raised us up together (aorist active indicative), and made us sit together (aorist active indicative) in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Believers are citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21). They are seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:4-6, 11-14, 3:1). They now rule and reign with Him in life and in death.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows what we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” – which is reigning in delegated authority will be realized in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s Coming. The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvelous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realized these heavenly privileges.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying,they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth (v. 9).

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice and intercede for the people. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

Revelation 20:4-5 says, And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (aorist active indicative) unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

The dead in Christ are therefore no longer in Abraham’s bosom since the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven reigning with Christ. Basically, as Satan was banished and the elect were welcomed.

Believers are already partaking in the first resurrection

A final example will reinforce my thesis. John is describing the current reality of believers already partaking in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The first
resurrection is shown elsewhere throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5). The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

The duplicity of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used, Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

We see victory over the second death in this age through the new birth. Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It wins us victory over eternal death. It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.

great post in regards to Christ’s present reigning! Absolutely agree!

however, I’m going to offer some counter points on your “believers reigning now” section, to help sharpen your argument:

1.) in revelation 2-3, there are several rewards given to the overcoming saints. The verb overcoming is present tense. However the doling out of rewards is future tense. When do the saints receive these future tense rewards. This life? After death, at the coming of Christ when he rewards?

2.) according to revelation 6’s the 5th seal, the souls of the saints are under the altar, resting and waiting and being given white robes. They are not represented as reigning or sitting with Christ. This seems to contradict the Amil position that revelation 20 represents what happens to believers upon death: coming to life and reigning.

3.) it’s possible that Ephesians 2:6 is written in the prophetic perfect idiom, which was common among ancient Hebrews. In other words, Paul was writing of a future event (being seated with Christ) as so certain to happen, as it was guaranteed by the spirit, that he writes as if already fulfilled.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Of course it is if a person dies still in a saved state, not in a fallen state instead, or that they are still in a saved state, not a fallen state instead, when Christ returns. Salvation is eternal in their case, no doubt about it. Not everyone might still be in a saved state when they die though, or when Christ returns, thus NOSAS. I already know what the argument likely is. Ppl like I'm describing, they were never saved to begin with.

Matthew 24 states that he that shall endure to the end shall be saved. Most things have to have an opposite. What is the opposite of that? He that shall not endure to the end shall not be saved, thus NOSAS. I take the end to be meaning the end of one's life or the 2nd coming, whichever one might happen in each person's case.

For these reasons alone the first resurrection can't be meaning something that spiritually happens to someone in this age. If one falls away, thus loses their salvation, thus, don't endure to the end, this contradicts pretty much everything recorded in Revelation 20:6, such as being blessed and holy, those who have part in the first resurrection. Such as the 2nd death having no power over you. Such as being priests to God and Christ. How can all of those things apply to someone one day and the next day they no longer do, meaning if they fall away? Premil does not have this problem. Everyone who have part in the first resurrection is meaning everyone that endures to the end. It is not meaning anyone that falls away.

NOSAS and Amil is not compatible. But I have already done a thread involving that subject in the past. NOSAS and Premil is compatible.

How long is eternal? How long is everlasting?
 
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sovereigngrace

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You claim this verse is lacking two words: "then" is used twice and you skip right over them as if they do not exist.

Then: after that; next; afterward.

Christ the firstfruits: all the OT resurrected at the Cross. The last day the OT declared was the Cross. All those times they pointed out to Jesus about the last day resurrection, they unknowingly were talking about the Cross. There was a resurrection out of Abraham's bosom at the Cross. Paul told Jesus led those souls out of captivity. Matthew writes their physical bodies were seen by many in Jerusalem.

Then after that, next afterward

The Second Coming: those alive on the earth are resurrected. Out of a dead body into an incorruptible body.

Then after that, next afterward

At the end of the kingdom. That 1,000 year reign you all seem to place an "A" in front of. Christ is in charge, and it will get an "A+" rating.

Except that resurrection is the one to damnation. Those dead stand before God at the GWT. John does not even grace this event with the word resurrection, but Paul points out this final act when Christ hands back the earth, and then heaven and earth pass away, making way for the NHNE.

A time was coming. A time has come. A time will yet come. Jesus used the word time and hour, yes, but not a singular hour at a last day event. The Cross was just one of the last days mentioned in God's Word. Those in Abraham's bosom were waiting for those words, "It is finished".

Yet you are adding onto Scripture again. There is no mention of a 1000 years in that passage. Premils have to insert it in there to allow their doctrine. They do that throughout the Word of God.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You restated and misunderstood what I wrote.

What I wrote was...

"For the saved at either their resurrection or at the rapture.

For the unsaved at the Great White Throne Judgement."
No, I did not. Remember, we were talking about this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You are trying to say that Jesus was talking about 2 different events at 2 entirely different times here? How can that be? Explain how what you're saying above lines up with what Jesus said in Matthew 13:47-50.

He indicated in this passage that the saved are rewarded and the lost are condemned at the same time, which will be at the end of this temporal age. How do you reconcile your beliefs with that? Please tell me exactly how you interpret that passage. When do you believe the end of the age will occur and what did Jesus say will happen at that time?
 
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Timtofly

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I have repeatedly showed you that the time of Jacob's trouble has been long-fulfilled. Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.
Jesus gives us Jacob's trouble again though.

Matthew 24:21-22

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Jesus was not talking about the Babylonian captivity. Jesus was not talking about the new Jerusalem having trouble. Jesus was not talking about 70AD having trouble. Yet Jesus was talking about Jerusalem and Judea, not even about the church. Jerusalem and the surrounding area is still dealing with Jacob and Israel at the time of the Second Coming.
 
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Douggg

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He indicated in this passage that the saved are rewarded and the lost are condemned at the same time, which will be at the end of this temporal age. How do you reconcile your beliefs with that? Please tell me exactly how you interpret that passage. When do you believe the end of the age will occur and what did Jesus say will happen at that time?
After the end of 1000 year millennial rule of Jesus on this current earth, will be the Great White Throne judgement of the them who have done good and the them who have done evil.

______________________________________________________

My turn.

Jesus is metaphorically the firstfruits of the Kingdom of God which He is the seed placed in the ground and the Kingdom of God coming forth when Jesus resurrected from the grave.

Jesus was the first to be resurrected into the Kingdom of God, and came into that Kingdom, given to Him in Daniel 7:13-14.

When Jesus returns, He brings the Kingdom of God to be the ruling Kingdom over the nations for His millennial rule. Which them resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6 will rule with Him, as well as them taking part in the resurrection/rapture event who will be spared from the great tribulation.

Amil does not consider the 1000 millennial rule of Jesus, that during that time the Kingdom of God will be the ruling Kingdom over the nations - which evil dictators will not be allowed, as Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
 
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