Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

tall73 · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
Here is the fundamental Belief I quote in post you replied to --

Holy Scriptures

The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

I take it from your response - that when you read it you see "Ellen White" all over it? or are you talking about something "else"??

Note the term "prophetic authority", which you put in quotations and said Adventists affirm, is not stated in the above belief statement. It is stated in the belief statement regarding prophecy and Ellen white.

The Gift of Prophecy
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.

You quoted the statement regarding Scripture. And you referred to the statement regarding prophecy and Ellen White.

And in post two you referred to Ellen White again.

tall73 · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
but since that is your focus - here is what she said about sola scriptura and taking serious objections by allowing them to their full weight and seeing what the Bible says on the topic.

Yes, she said a number of times to address objections with the Scriptures. Which is why it is even worse that she did not do so when Ballenger raised questions. Instead she appealed to experience.

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {1SM 161.2}

ChetSinger · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
And if we were to compare that practice to scripture we would look at the scriptures that deal with those topics and try to get the full Bible teaching on those two practices.

exactly

Yep!

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
Yes, she said a number of times to address objections with the Scriptures. Which is why it is even worse that she did not do so when Ballenger

Ballenger was an SDA - "A. F. Ballenger (1861–1921) was a Seventh-day Adventist Minister who started the "Receive Ye the Holy Ghost" movement which helped inspire the Holy Flesh movement" --which of course was error.

He was NOT someone taking Bible studies from Ellen White or from any other SDA nor was he claiming to be a non-SDA nor was he declaring that he was not an SDA minister.

None of Ellen White's statements that I quoted - talk about finding an SDA minister that you believe to be in error and "straightening them out". In my view everyone in that category has free will and can choose as they wish.

(Having said that: If there was a magic button for "straightening out" any minister that you find to be in error - I would be tempted to press it.)

tall73 · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
Ballenger was an SDA - "A. F. Ballenger (1861–1921) was a Seventh-day Adventist Minister who started the "Receive Ye the Holy Ghost" movement which helped inspire the Holy Flesh movement" --which of course was error.

He was NOT someone taking Bible studies from Ellen White or from any other SDA nor was he claiming to be a non-SDA nor was he declaring that he was not an SDA minister.

None of Ellen White's statements that I quoted - talk about finding an SDA minister that you believe to be in error and "straightening them out". In my view everyone in that category has free will and can choose as they wish. If there was a magic button for "straightening out" any minister that you find to be in error - I would be tempted to press it.

Now Bob, you said that you are to test prophets by the Scripture. He was even asking the one considered a prophet for scripture to uphold her view. He did this because he thought her view went AGAINST scripture.

Yes, he was an Adventist minister. And the topic they were discussing here was the sanctuary teaching.

Why should she not correct him with Scripture?

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
Adventists affirm the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy where prophets speak with "prophetic authority" (obviously) because they are "moved by the Holy Spirit and speak from God" 2 Peter 1:19-21

21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (NASB 1955)

So then this applies to

Anna in the temple at the time of Christ's birth. A prophet.

Agabus in the book of Acts predicting events in Jerusalem

Philip's four daughters

Deborah - a judge and prophet in Israel in the book of Judges

all the prophets in Corinth as we see in 1 Cor 14 "each one has a revelation"

Ephesians 4 tells us that the gifts remain until the second coming.

tall73 said:
Note the term "prophetic authority", which you put in quotations and said Adventists affirm,

I am noting it.

I am also noting my explicit application of it in my OP as follows --

=============================================

2 Peter 1:19-21
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (NIV)
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (NASB 1955)

So then this applies to

Anna in the temple at the time of Christ's birth. A prophet.
Agabus in the book of Acts predicting events in Jerusalem
Philip's four daughters
Deborah - a judge and prophet in Israel in the book of Judges
all the prophets in Corinth as we see in 1 Cor 14 "each one has a revelation"

===============================================

Did you want to discuss that Bible detail... or... just... Ellen White??

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
Now Bob, you said that you are to test prophets by the Scripture.

Indeed.

tall73 said:
He was even asking the one considered a prophet for scripture to uphold her view.

hmm you find an SDA minister adopting the heresy of "Holy flesh" and challenging someone to debate with him - to be a good example of someone who could not find a single minister or leader in the SDA church condemning the holy flesh error from the Bible?? Seriously?

Do you really think that Ballenger thought Ellen White was the only person that had read the Bible enough to know his holy flesh false doctrine was outright error?

" S.N. Haskell (1833–1922) and A. J. Breed were sent to the camp meeting at Muncie to meet this "fanaticism". At the 1901 General Conference session"

You are inserting this leader of fanaticism (who was a former SDA Minister) into this thread as if he was a great example of the sort of Bible student not being addressed with any Bible texts. Are you serious about that???

tall73 · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
I am noting it.

I am also noting my explicit application of it in my OP as follows --

Yes, and don't forget post two where you applied it to a more recent prophet--Ellen White.

So far Bob I don't see people disagreeing with the notion of a prophetic gift, or with testing them, including testing to see if they match with Scripture.

So if you want comment on that aspect by me, I say I agree.

And then I wonder why Ellen White, who's writings you consider to speak with prophetic authority, didn't follow that in Ballenger's case.

Why did she not accept the biblical testing of a prophet, and answer with Scripture?

tall73 · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
Indeed.

hmm you find an SDA minister adopting the heresy of "Holy flesh" and challenging someone to debate with him - to be a good example of someone who could not find a single minister or leader in the SDA church condemning the holy flesh error from the Bible?? Seriously?

Oh, is holy flesh one of the "special" points of faith in the Adventist church?

I think you know they were talking about the sanctuary here. And if you like more quotes can be added.

Do you really think that Ballenger thought Ellen White was the only person that had read the Bible enough to know his holy flesh false doctrine was outright error?

Bob, he was submitting her to the test of Scripture regarding the sanctuary. Do you think that she should not answer?

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
Oh, is holy flesh one of the "special" points of faith in the Adventist church?

Not that I know of - but your selection of the SDA minister and leader of that fanatical movement as he was being condemned for teaching error - makes me wonder what you are thinking here.

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
Yes, and don't forget post two where you applied it to a more recent prophet--Ellen White.

Post 2 - not quoted by you so far as I can tell - says this --

============================

We have seen in other threads the "sola scriptura" case for pre-Advent Judgment in Daniel 7. So that is an example where both the Bible and even a more recent example of a prophet - affirm the doctrine of a pre-advent judgement where "the court sits, the books were opened" Dan 7:9-10 and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 before he second coming of Christ and after 1260 years of persecution of the saints. (As noted in another recent thread here)

================

A good example of pointing to the Bible as the source - with a direct quote from it.

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
I think you know they were talking about the sanctuary here. And if you like more quotes can be added.
Bob, he was submitting her to the test of Scripture regarding the sanctuary. Do you think that she should not answer?

At the time he was getting exposed as the leader of fanaticism regarding holy flesh - the SDA denomination itself had already affirmed the Bible doctrine on the future judgment that we see in Dan 7 and Rom 2 and 2 Cor 5:10. The Fundamental Belief on that doctrine does not quote Ellen White and never said "try and debate Ellen White out of accepting this doctrine and then we will not believe what Dan 7 says any more".

For someone that likes to claim Ellen White is the source for some doctrine - that would be the perfect scenario - because we present this sola-scriptura every day. If "that were not possible" then it wold be easy to show it.

A false teacher like Ballenger was in no way stopped from studying the Bible or from promoting his own false doctrine simply because Ellen White was not engaged in personal Bible study with him.

tall73 · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
Not that I know of - but your selection of the SDA minister and leader of that fanatical movement as he was being condemned for teaching error - makes me wonder what you are thinking here.

I am thinking that the letter in question was regarding the sanctuary question. And she refused to answer with Scripture. From the same letter:

Elder Ballenger’s proofs are not reliable. If received, they would destroy the faith of God’s people in the truth that has made us what we are. We must be decided on this subject; for the points that he is trying to prove by Scripture are not sound. They do not prove that the past experience of God’s people was a fallacy. We had the truth; we were directed by the angels of God. It was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that the presentation of the sanctuary question was given. It is eloquence for every one to keep silent in regard to the features of our faith in which they acted no part.

They were not talking about holy flesh Bob. They were talking about the sanctuary. But she just said he is not reliable, and don't receive him when he brings Scripture.

And here is Andreason commenting years later:

If my experience as a teacher in the Seminary may be taken as a criterion, I would say that a large number of our ministers have serious doubt as to the correctness of the views we hold on certain phases of the sanctuary. They believe, in a general way, that we are correct, but they are as fully assured that Ballenger's views have never been fully met and that we cannot meet them. Not wishing to make the matter an issue, they simply decide that the question is not vital - and thus the whole subject of the sanctuary is relegated, in their minds at least, to the background. This is not a wholesome situation. If the subject is as vital as we have thought and taught it to be, it is not of secondary importance. Today, in the minds of a considerable part of the ministry, as far as my experience in the Seminary is concerned, it has little vital bearing, either in their lives or theology. I dread to see the day when our enemies will make capital of our weakness. I dread still more to see the day when our ministry will begin to raise questions. M. L. Andreason letter, 1942.

And Prescott knew they were talking about the sanctuary.

Twenty-five years later W. W. Prescott (a member of the GC ad hoc committees appointed to meet with the dissidents) commented in a letter to W. A. Spicer, then president of the General Conference: "I have waited all these years for someone to make an adequate answer to Ballenger, Fletcher and others on their positions re. the sanctuary but I have not seen or heard it." Cottrell's Sanctuary Doctrine—Asset or liability.

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
So far Bob I don't see people disagreeing with the notion of a prophetic gift, or with testing them, including testing to see if they match with Scripture.

I think that is sort of true on this thread - but in General Theology and on other threads here - a lot of people do choose to reject the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy as something that is still available no matter what 1 Cor 14:1-2 or Eph 4 says to the contrary.

tall73 said:
And then I wonder why Ellen White, who's writings you consider to speak with prophetic authority, didn't follow that in Ballenger's case.

Ballenger was a fanatic SDA minister who lost his license and taught the false doctrine of holy flesh -- that you and I both know is pure error. That is not even debatable and only those non-SDAs reading this are the ones that might not be aware of the context for your "example" test case.

=======================

in 1981 we have “The Sanctuary and the Atonement” published by the Biblical Research Committee of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

tall73 · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
Post 2 - not quoted by you so far as I can tell - says this --

============================

We have seen in other threads the "sola scriptura" case for pre-Advent Judgment in Daniel 7. So that is an example where both the Bible and even a more recent example of a prophet - affirm the doctrine of a pre-advent judgement where "the court sits, the books were opened" Dan 7:9-10 and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 before he second coming of Christ and after 1260 years of persecution of the saints. (As noted in another recent thread here)

================

A good example of pointing to the Bible as the source - with a direct quote from it.

a more recent example of a prophet - affirm the doctrine of a pre-advent judgement

Hey Bob who is the "recent example of a prophet" that affirms the doctrine of a pre-advent judgment?

Now you claim I am off topic, but you refer to Ellen White as an example in your own statements. I am not off topic.

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
Why did she not accept the biblical testing of a prophet, and answer with Scripture?

Well for one thing there is no such thing as that.

The Bible does not say that a prophet or that any person must engage in Bible study with every fanatic with a horse to ride. Jesus Himself refused to answer certain people during his trial because with them it would be a waste of time.

However your SDA Minister "Ballenger" is not a good example of someone who had no Bible discussions with any SDA leader on points where he was trying to promote his false ideas.

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
Hey Bob who is the "recent example of a prophet" that affirms the doctrine of a pre-advent judgment?

How many would you like? - and why does it matter to you since my first statement was that it is in the Bible??

tall73 · Nov 3, 2021

BobRyan said:
" S.N. Haskell (1833–1922) and A. J. Breed were sent to the camp meeting at Muncie to meet this "fanaticism". At the 1901 General Conference session"

This letter we are referring to is in 1905, Bob, not 1901. And we have already quoted from the letter to establish it was about the sanctuary. And she calls him "Elder Ballenger" becuse he was in fact still a minister at that time.

He is asking her for Scripture proof for her doctrine. And she appeals to experience.

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
This letter we are referring to is in 1905, Bob, not 1901. And we have already quoted from the letter to establish it was about the sanctuary. And she calls him "Elder Ballenger" becuse he was in fact still a minister at that time.

He is asking her for Scripture proof for her doctrine. And she appeals to experience.

She does not have a doctrine - but the denomination does - and Ballenger had tons of discussion on this point not at all limited to "only if Ellen White knows the answer" -- Our answer is from the Bible. She points to the Holy Spirit as the source - but no matter what the claim - we can only affirm or reject the doctrine based on sola scriptura testing.

We would never quote Ellen White to establish that the Bible affirms or rejects something as you may have known at one time. Prophets relay messages God gives them - they are not "debaters". Ballenger thought his bible affirmed the fanatical holy flesh doctrine and rejected the Dan 7 doctrine on future judgment. Ballenger was wrong.

BobRyan · Nov 3, 2021

tall73 said:
W. W. Prescott (a member of the GC ad hoc committees appointed to meet with the dissidents) commented in a letter to W. A. Spicer, then president of the General Conference: "I have waited all these years for someone to make an adequate answer to Ballenger, Fletcher and others .

in 1981 we have “The Sanctuary and the Atonement” published by the Biblical Research Committee of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

Well all this "Who did Ellen White study the Bible with" focus in your posts is not helping your case here -- because the doctrine is already stated sola-scriptura and IF you actually had an irrefutable Bible position from either Ballenger or Fletcher or .... you would have given it by now instead circling around and around the idea that there were fanatics in Ellen White's day that she would not take seriously. Jesus Himself refused to answer certain people who harassed him during his trial - and they too complained about it.

On this thread we are open to the sola scriptura cases that are made. The fact that you seem to stick with "who did Ellen White consider to be sincere Bible students" does not help you -- since there is no such basis for accepting or rejecting a doctrine that dissidents like Ballenger wanted to promote.

Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

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