Christ's birth and winter being mentioned in the gospels.

This article critiques Jonathan Cahn’s video and does a lot of extensive research behind his claims and concludes that Jesus was indeed born on Nisan 1.

Pinpointing the Date of Christ's Birth - Associates for Biblical Research

Neostarwcc said:

1. Christ's birth is mentioned in the gospels but not what season he was born in. Which leads many to believe If he was born In winter, wouldn't the apostles have mentioned since every other mention of important things Jesus did the apostles wrote whether it was during winter.

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Well exactly.
If it was important and we needed to know, we would have been told.

Neostarwcc said:

2. When people protray Christ being born in pictures, they show a baby in a Manger with snow all around them.

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That's just a modern, sanitised, cute little picture of what they want it to be/think it should have been like.

Neostarwcc said:

While it's true Jesus was born in Bethlehem in a Manger with Wiseman greeting him and honoring him as King.

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Partly.
Apparently it's more likely to have been an outbuilding of an inn, than a wooden stable. And the Magi arrived later than the shepherds. Some have said this was 2 years later, probably after Mary and Joseph returned from Egypt where they had gone to flee from Herod. That's why we have Epiphany on Jan 6th. Church nativity plays tend to include the Magi (probably a way of finding roles for all the children) - but they almost certainly weren't at the birth. We're not even sure that there were 3 of them.
Matthew 2:11 says, "when they [the Magi] arrived at the house".

Neostarwcc said:

If there was snow when Jesus was born, wouldn't the apostles have recorded such a miraculous event?

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Like I said, I doubt there was.
Only Matthew and Luke record Jesus' birth, and even then, they don't give any real details. I am certain the miracle of God Incarnate was more important than the weather.

There are discrepancies between what actually happened and the way that the world, and even the church, have portrayed it over the centuries.
The fact is that we don't have that many details of the event, so people have imagined and embellished - dressing Mary in blue, placing the Holy Family in a cosy, lamp-lit stable on a hillside with cute little sheep and cows looking on, for example.

The main, and only important, fact is that Jesus was born - God with us.

To everyone:

First clue:


Second clue:



Source used:
A LAMB BORN IN BETHLEHEM – NAZARENE NOTES
(Important Note: I merely agree with the quoted portions of the article I quoted; This does not mean I agree with everything this website or church believes on other topics in God’s Word).

To all:

Some may say that Jesus’ birth is not mentioned in the Bible and thus it is not important for us to know.

But Proverbs 25 says,


We are the kings today who can search out things in God’s Word that are concealed.


For I believe the Bible hides certain things for us to find. There are truths that can be discovered if we put together the clues in God’s Word. For me, it is special to know that Jesus came at time that would line up and glorify His Holy Word. Jesus is the Alpha (the beginning). Jesus is the Lamb of God. Jesus dwelt (tabernacled) among us. These truths are even more magnified when we know the timing of His birth (Which I believe is Nisan 1 - the beginning of the Jewish calendar year). For Jesus makes all things new.

Bible Highlighter said:

Unlike humans, sheep have a season for giving birth. The lambing season in first-century Israel, due to the existing breed of sheep then, occurred from late March to mid-April. Shepherds would typically only watch flocks at night during the lambing season. December would have been too cold and probably too rainy for the shepherds to be out at night watching their flocks.
Yeshua is the Lamb of the Eternal so, who better than the shepherds to welcome him at birth.
The census required families to travel back to their father’s town of origin. Joseph belonged to the family of David, which is why they were in Bethlehem that night. The Romans would not have called for a census during winter as it would have been very hard for the people to travel long distances in the cold and rain. So the December birth date is, at the very least, doubtful.​

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One main problem is that there was no "December" in Bible times.
The Jewish months of the year had very different names.
Originally the calendar had only 10 months, I understand; September-December were the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th months of the year, hence their names.
The Gregorian calendar was put forward in the 1580's - though not adopted, in the UK at least, until 1752. At some point, 11 days were lost.

So even if we knew/could work out Jesus' birth month, and even if it corresponded to our modern day December, that would not have always been the case. December was once the 10th month of the year - which is what we now know as October.

Bible Highlighter said:

Some may say that Jesus’ birth is not mentioned in the Bible and thus it is not important for us to know.

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It isn't.
The fact of his birth as both God and man is far more important.

Bible Highlighter said:

For I believe the Bible hides certain things for us to find.

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I don't.
I don't believe God is that secretive. He wants all to know about him, his Son, his plan of salvation, his Spirit and his will for our lives - why would he need to be cryptic/devious about it?

Bible Highlighter said:

There are truths that can be discovered if we put together the clues in God’s Word.

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No, there are prophecies which were, and will be, fulfilled by Christ.
Whenever Jesus fulfilled an OT prophecy the Gospel writers told us - so that we wouldn't guess, be in the dark and read things into Scripture that aren't there.

The Word of God is a lamp for our feet and a light for our path, Psalms 119:105. Light shows the way; it does not reveal things and then leave us to put the pieces together like some big puzzle.

Strong in Him said:

​

One main problem is that there was no "December" in Bible times.
The Jewish months of the year had very different names.
Originally the calendar had only 10 months, I understand; September-December were the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th months of the year, hence their names.
The Gregorian calendar was put forward in the 1580's - though not adopted, in the UK at least, until 1752. At some point, 11 days were lost.

So even if we knew/could work out Jesus' birth month, and even if it corresponded to our modern day December, that would not have always been the case. December was once the 10th month of the year - which is what we now know as October.

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No, that’s not correct. The Bible clearly says there is a twelfth month.

“And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,” (Ezekiel 32:1).

“And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey.” (Esther 3:13).

“And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison,” (Jeremiah 52:31).

“And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the year that he began to reign did lift up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah out of prison;” (2 Kings 25:27).

Strong in Him said:

It isn't.
The fact of his birth as both God and man is far more important.



I don't.
I don't believe God is that secretive. He wants all to know about him, his Son, his plan of salvation, his Spirit and his will for our lives - why would he need to be cryptic/devious about it?



No, there are prophecies which were, and will be, fulfilled by Christ.
Whenever Jesus fulfilled an OT prophecy the Gospel writers told us - so that we wouldn't guess, be in the dark and read things into Scripture that aren't there.

The Word of God is a lamp for our feet and a light for our path, Psalms 119:105. Light shows the way; it does not reveal things and then leave us to put the pieces together like some big puzzle.

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#1. Then what do you make of Proverbs 25:2?
Do you not believe it is to the glory of God to conceal a matter?

#2. While Jesus did do miracles and declared He was God, He did not always openly do so and or showboat His deity or power to all. In other words, Jesus did not do even greater miracles to prove He was God to the unbelieving Jews. He did not place them on the transfiguration on the Mount or anything to convince them.

#3. Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables?

#4. There are truths we learned that were not always so evident at a first time reading of His Word or in the early years of our life as a Christian, as well.

Check out this CF thread to learn more.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

May the Lord bless you all and keep you in His loving peace and goodness.

Bible Highlighter said:

No, that’s not correct. The Bible clearly says there is a twelfth month.

“And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,” (Ezekiel 32:1).

“And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey.” (Esther 3:13).

“And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison,” (Jeremiah 52:31).

“And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the year that he began to reign did lift up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah out of prison;” (2 Kings 25:27).

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In the Jewish calendar - yes, maybe.
But in our calendar they would not have called the eighth month OCTober - Oct meaning 8, for example OCTopus, OCTagonal, OCTogenarian - if in fact it had always been the 10th month. DEC means 10 - as in DECimal, DECathlon, DECagon.
If there had always been a 12 month calendar and someone deliberately named the 9th-12 months after the numerals 7-10, that would suggest stupidity or their desire to play a practical joke.
It suggests to me that there was once a 10 month calendar, in the West, someone stuck in two extra months but kept the names of all the other months.

Bible Highlighter said:

#1. Then what do you make of Proverbs 25:2?

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That doesn't say that God has hidden things in his word, or put them in code, and we have to find them/work them out for ourselves; to assume otherwise is reading into the text.

God has always made his word very clear; Adam, Moses, the Israelites in the OT knew exactly what God had taught and commanded - and furthermore, what would happen if they didn't listen to, or obey, his word. How many times did folk in the Bible get into trouble/a mess/get punished because they did not believe, follow or listen to what God said? How many today get into a mess
The whole idea of "there is hidden/special knowledge that only a few can know, or work out", is Gnosticism. The NT writers were writing against this.

Bible Highlighter said:

Do you not believe it is to the glory of God to conceal a matter?

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No.

God reveals his words and his truths. It's true that sometimes we have to search, e.g for the meaning of parables, or study to understand a truth like the Trinity - but that doesn't mean that God has deliberately hidden the meanings.
And it seem that you aren't even talking about that but about some kind of clues or codes that are hidden in Scripture somewhere and we have to try to discover the and put them together to solve the puzzle.
When Jesus was transfigured, God said "this is my Son, listen to him". The OT prophets were always saying "hear the word of the Lord", and Jesus said "whoever hears my words .....", No one ever said "whoever digs for the clues in the Bible and finds them gets the prize/is more blessed than anyone else."

Bible Highlighter said:

#2. While Jesus did do miracles and declared He was God, He did not always openly do so and or showboat His deity or power to all.

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Not to the entire world, no - there was no Sky news then.
And he didn't reveal to everyone that he was the Messiah because the Jews had preconceived ideas about what their Messiah would be or do - they thought he would be a military figure who would lead them into war against the Romans. Had he stood outside the temple and said "I am the Messiah", some would have tried to seize him and make him king, or force him to declare war on the Romans. There was a suggestion that Judas betrayed Jesus because he was not the person that Judas wanted him to be.

Bible Highlighter said:

#3. Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables?

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Jesus used parables, stories about every day items or situations they were familiar with, to help illustrate what he was saying, help people to remember and identify with it and to think about it for themselves. People always remember stories and illustrations rather than lectures/factual teaching - the Jews had been repeating the stories of their ancestors for centuries.

Bible Highlighter said:

#4. There are truths we learned that were not always so evident at a first time reading of His Word or in the early years of our life as a Christian, as well.

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Yes - we see stories from new perspectives, understand more of the teaching, have new things revealed to us by the Spirit or maybe he simply applies it to our lives in new ways.
Parables have more than one meaning, and we are encouraged to study God's word, and learn more about him. There is always more to learn about our faith and about him - he is an awesome, infinite, all powerful, all knowing God; we are finite human beings with finite minds. No human baby is born knowing the alphabet, how to count; no one learning to count for the first time will then be asked to solve quadratic equations. We all learn and as we grow and our understanding increases, we learn more complex things.

This does not mean that God has deliberately hidden things, in some sort of code, in Scripture and only a few who crack the code will benefit.

Strong in Him said:

In the Jewish calendar - yes, maybe.
But in our calendar they would not have called the eighth month OCTober - Oct meaning 8, for example OCTopus, OCTagonal, OCTogenarian - if in fact it had always been the 10th month. DEC means 10 - as in DECimal, DECathlon, DECagon.
If there had always been a 12 month calendar and someone deliberately named the 9th-12 months after the numerals 7-10, that would suggest stupidity or their desire to play a practical joke.
It suggests to me that there was once a 10 month calendar, in the West, someone stuck in two extra months but kept the names of all the other months.

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Sorry, no offense. But you are simply denying what the Bible plainly says. There is no mention of a 10 month calendar in the Bible. A 10 month calendar does not exist in the Bible and thus would be secret knowledge that the Bible does not agree with. Only a twelve months is mentioned in Scripture (Which shows that you are wrong).

Bible Highlighter said:

Sorry, no offense. But you are simply denying what the Bible plainly says. There is no mention of a 10 month calendar in the Bible. A 10 month calendar does not exist in the Bible and thus would be secret knowledge that the Bible does not agree with. Only a twelve months is mentioned in Scripture (Which shows that you are wrong).

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Sorry but you're not listening.

The Jews probably did have a 12 month calendar - which is why it is mentioned in Scripture. Of course that is the case.

But we in the West do not have, or use, the Jewish calendar; we have January-December, not Nissan, Adar and whatever other months they had.
We used to use the Julian calendar and then moved to the Gregorian calendar - fact.
At some point, someone chose to name the months of our year after Roman gods or after the position of that month in the calendar. The prefix DEC means 10, or 10th; fact - which suggests that it was once the 10th month. In OUR calendar, not the Jews'.
What's your explanation for someone giving the 12th month of the year a name which means "10th"?

Strong in Him said:

That doesn't say that God has hidden things in his word, or put them in code, and we have to find them/work them out for ourselves; to assume otherwise is reading into the text.

God has always made his word very clear; Adam, Moses, the Israelites in the OT knew exactly what God had taught and commanded - and furthermore, what would happen if they didn't listen to, or obey, his word. How many times did folk in the Bible get into trouble/a mess/get punished because they did not believe, follow or listen to what God said? How many today get into a mess
The whole idea of "there is hidden/special knowledge that only a few can know, or work out", is Gnosticism. The NT writers were writing against this.

Click to expand...

I think it's rather interesting, then, that working out a time of the year to commemorate Jesus' death is rather easy from scripture, but it takes all kinds of wrangling to figure out the day of His birth. If the writers of scripture wanted Jesus' day of birth commemorated, couldn't they have identified it by the festivals of the Jewish calendar they did the day of His death?

Or maybe...they didn't intend to commemorate the day of His birth? As I noted before:

And the day of death than the day of one’s birth-- Ecclesiastes 7

Strong in Him said:

That doesn't say that God has hidden things in his word, or put them in code, and we have to find them/work them out for ourselves; to assume otherwise is reading into the text.

God has always made his word very clear; Adam, Moses, the Israelites in the OT knew exactly what God had taught and commanded - and furthermore, what would happen if they didn't listen to, or obey, his word. How many times did folk in the Bible get into trouble/a mess/get punished because they did not believe, follow or listen to what God said? How many today get into a mess
The whole idea of "there is hidden/special knowledge that only a few can know, or work out", is Gnosticism. The NT writers were writing against this.

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Well, there are certain basic things in God’s Word that God meant for many to understand plainly. But not everything is as clear as you suggest. We have to meditate on God’s Word to get the understanding.


If it was as clear as you said than there would be no misunderstandings on God’s Word.
There would be no need to meditate to understand His Word.

You said:

No.

God reveals his words and his truths. It's true that sometimes we have to search, e.g for the meaning of parables, or study to understand a truth like the Trinity - but that doesn't mean that God has deliberately hidden the meanings.

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It is to the glory of God to conceal a matter. That’s what it says in Proverbs 25:2. You are simply not believing that verse in what it plainly says. Also, Jesus says this:


So Jesus says it is given to the disciples to know the mysteries (hidden things) of the kingdom, but to those in the crowd (indicating unbelievers) it is not given to them to know those mysteries (hidden things). So you are simply denying a basic truth taught by our Lord.

You said:

And it seem that you aren't even talking about that but about some kind of clues or codes that are hidden in Scripture somewhere and we have to try to discover the and put them together to solve the puzzle.

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Yes, there are things in Scripture you have to put together in order to gain an understanding on what His Word is trying to say on a particular truth or topic.


For example: I did not come to learn of the one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 until later in my life because I was not ready to hear such a truth early on in my faith. I was not mature enough for that yet.

What is the “one baptism” mentioned in Ephesians 4:5? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).

You said:

When Jesus was transfigured, God said "this is my Son, listen to him". The OT prophets were always saying "hear the word of the Lord", and Jesus said "whoever hears my words .....", No one ever said "whoever digs for the clues in the Bible and finds them gets the prize/is more blessed than anyone else."

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I am not in disagreement that God spoke plainly many times. But He also spoke in parables, too. In fact, the disciples did not understand Jesus’ death and resurrection as a part of our salvation before the cross. It was only after the Lord was risen that they began to understand. If Jesus really wanted to make this truth clear to them ahead of time, He could have easily done so by giving them a future vision, etc. but that did not happen. It was knowledge that was hidden from them.

You said:

Not to the entire world, no - there was no Sky news then.
And he didn't reveal to everyone that he was the Messiah because the Jews had preconceived ideas about what their Messiah would be or do - they thought he would be a military figure who would lead them into war against the Romans. Had he stood outside the temple and said "I am the Messiah", some would have tried to seize him and make him king, or force him to declare war on the Romans. There was a suggestion that Judas betrayed Jesus because he was not the person that Judas wanted him to be.

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But you fail to understand that this point of Jesus not declaring all truth openly supports my view that God does hide truth from people.

You said:

Yes - we see stories from new perspectives, understand more of the teaching, have new things revealed to us by the Spirit or maybe he simply applies it to our lives in new ways.
Parables have more than one meaning, and we are encouraged to study God's word, and learn more about him. There is always more to learn about our faith and about him - he is an awesome, infinite, all powerful, all knowing God; we are finite human beings with finite minds. No human baby is born knowing the alphabet, how to count; no one learning to count for the first time will then be asked to solve quadratic equations. We all learn and as we grow and our understanding increases, we learn more complex things.

This does not mean that God has deliberately hidden things, in some sort of code, in Scripture and only a few who crack the code will benefit.

Click to expand...

Again, you are supporting my point. If the Spirit has to reveal new lessons or truths from the same parables this proves that knowledge in His Word is hidden until the Spirit reveals it to that believer.

Anyways, God does put things in His Word to show that it is divine in origin.


Also, what is fascinating is that it is 49 letter intervals that is used in discovering this Hebrew Torah message (That Chuck Missler talks about in his video that I shown above) that glorifies God in the Torah; And yet we coincidentally see this 49 letter intervals again with another interesting fact revealed that glorifies the Lord again within the Scriptures.

What am I talking about?

It is a short genealogy of David in Genesis 38 in the original Hebrew all within 49 letter sequence intervals.





Talk about God glorifying His own Word!!!

Sources Used:
Treasures - - Koinonia House
Textual Surprises: Treasures in the Family Trees - Chuck Missler - Koinonia House

RDKirk said:

I think it's rather interesting, then, that working out a time of the year to commemorate Jesus' death is rather easy from scripture, but it takes all kinds of wrangling to figure out the day of His birth. If the writers of scripture wanted Jesus' day of birth commemorated, couldn't they have identified it by the festivals of the Jewish calendar they did the day of His death?

Or maybe...they didn't intend to commemorate the day of His birth? As I noted before:

And the day of death than the day of one’s birth-- Ecclesiastes 7

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“A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.” (Ecclesiastes 7:1).

We know the Lord received precious ointment upon Him in Luke 7:36-50.


There was also the anointment of Jesus at Bethany, as well.


So if it is wrong to regard Jesus’ birth, then it would be wrong to anoint with precious anointment seeing a good name is better. In other words, as long as one does not supersede the other or replace it, I don’t see a problem in honoring the Lord’s Incarnation. For the Word was made flesh (John 1:14). What a beautiful truth that is. Granted, I do not think folks are really honoring Christ on Christmas because that is a worldly focused holiday and not a solely Christ honoring one. For a day in honoring His birth should include His death, burial, and resurrection, as well.

Strong in Him said:

Sorry but you're not listening.

The Jews probably did have a 12 month calendar - which is why it is mentioned in Scripture. Of course that is the case.

But we in the West do not have, or use, the Jewish calendar; we have January-December, not Nissan, Adar and whatever other months they had.
We used to use the Julian calendar and then moved to the Gregorian calendar - fact.
At some point, someone chose to name the months of our year after Roman gods or after the position of that month in the calendar. The prefix DEC means 10, or 10th; fact - which suggests that it was once the 10th month. In OUR calendar, not the Jews'.
What's your explanation for someone giving the 12th month of the year a name which means "10th"?

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This is not relevant to bring up Gentile calendars because God did not go by Gentile calendars. I mentioned Nisan 1 (Which is a Jewish calendar).

Bible Highlighter said:

“A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.” (Ecclesiastes 7:1).

We know the Lord received precious ointment upon Him in Luke 7:36-50.

​

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Why did you edit the words in that verse?

A good name is better than a good ointment, And the day of one’s death is better than the day of one’s birth.

If we want to conflate those two verses--which is okay--that would mean anointing Jesus with oil and commemorating the day of His death...not the day of his birth.

Yes, Jesus was anointed with oil...and the day of His death is commemorated...which is what that verse says. You can't get from that verse that the day of birth should be commemorated.

Plus: In scripture, no good Jew celebrated a birthday. Only pagans and evil men celebrated their birthdays in scripture...and some innocent person always got murdered. Birthday celebrations are represented as evil events in scripture.

Every gospel gives us sufficient explicit information to determine when to commemorate Jesus' death during the year. None of them gives us sufficient information to determine when in the year He was born. Certainly they could have done that...if they'd wanted to.

Jesus commanded commemorating His death, not His birthday.

Bible Highlighter said:

This is not relevant to bring up Gentile calendars because God did not go by Gentile calendars. I mentioned Nisan 1 (Which is a Jewish calendar).

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Yes, and you were talking about December - which is not in the Jewish calendar or Scripture.

RDKirk said:

​

Why did you edit the words in that verse?

A good name is better than a good ointment, And the day of one’s death is better than the day of one’s birth.

If we want to conflate those two verses--which is okay--that would mean anointing Jesus with oil and commemorating the day of His death...not the day of his birth.

Yes, Jesus was anointed with oil...and the day of His death is commemorated...which is what that verse says. You can't get from that verse that the day of birth should be commemorated.

Plus: In scripture, no good Jew celebrated a birthday. Only pagans and evil men celebrated their birthdays in scripture...and some innocent person always got murdered. Birthday celebrations are represented as evil events in scripture.

Every gospel gives us sufficient explicit information to determine when to commemorate Jesus' death during the year. None of them gives us sufficient information to determine when in the year He was born. Certainly they could have done that...if they'd wanted to.

Jesus commanded commemorating His death, not His birthday.

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Yes, I quoted from the KJB (that does not have those words in the second half of that verse); But it’s implied by the sentence structure (based on the first half of that sentence). How so? Well, other Modern Translations say the same thing that I am saying (like the NIV, etc.). Also, Jesus’ birth was commemorated with the wiseman worshiping Him and the giving gifts to Him.

Anyways, I am not denying that we commemorate Jesus’s death, burial, and resurrection. But there is no explicit instructions forbidding Christians to commemorate His birth. For wisemen already had done so. If it was wrong, then the Bible would condemn what they did, but it simply doesn’t.

Also, we are not Jews. Things changed with the New Covenant. Granted, I am not encouraging you to celebrate birthdays. That’s not what I am saying. The point here that there is nothing wrong with honoring Christ’s Incarnation. I don’t see any specific prohibition in doing that. I think God would want us to honor the Son in all things. The Lord’s whole life should be honored. Now, I don’t think we should celebrate Dec. 25th. That is a commercialized holiday focused on a worldly form of giving.

Side Note:

But what about other people’s birthdays? Should we alienate family in not calling them on their birthday? Did God hate it when they were born into this world? Was that somehow wrong? Are we uplifting that person when we say… Happy Birthday to them? Again, I am not interested in my own birthday or in trying to promote birthdays. But sometimes we cannot complete cut ourselves off from the family because we can be a witness to them for Christ.