Most OT prophetic passages futurists think are about the End Times, aren't

eclipsenow · Nov 2, 2021

Acts29 said:
He was not mistaken. The letters to the seven churches have nothing to do with those ancient churches. Those churches will exist again during the time of the end. THEN the letters will apply. The letters are addressed to the ANGEL of the church. The Holy Spirit marks those who are His today. Jesus is the light of the world as long as He is in it. Night will come when He leaves the world in the tribulation. That is why angels take over guiding the churches for a short time. Most don't understand eternity and thus do not understand how God speaks outside of time. He doesn't speak like man. Prophecies never apply immediately, but most cannot comprehend that.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
John 9:4 I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.

This is way off topic so I would prefer not to argue about this here. Thanks.

Incorrect. The letters to the 7 churches have references to churches he knew, with technologies and water plumbing systems he drew on from their time as a metaphor. The "hot nor cold, but lukewarm" statement comes from Laodicea's plumbing systems that often made people sick. Read Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse now and then" to learn more.

Too many Hollywood OMEN movies have coloured the way Americans read Revelation. Everyone wants to 'crack the code' and figure out when stuff is going to happen - disobeying and disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know. Instead of a future timetable to take random guesses at, John indicates that Revelation is about the Roman persecution of the church that is about to start. 4 times in Revelation 1 he indicates it is to his generation:-

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (verse 1)
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3). How could the early church obey something about 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near." (verse 3)
4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the TRIBULATION and the kingdom and the PATIENT ENDURANCE that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Verse 9 - ESV - capitals mine.) John already SHARES in *their* TRIBULATION! John was already in jail because of his gospel work, and already demonstrating the common theme throughout the rest of Revelation - that we overcome THIS time we are in by "patient endurance".

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline. It's about how to stay faithful in the time between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day. John uses powerful biblical symbols to describe (not prescribe) what this time will be like. And it could be a long time before Jesus Returns. The number 1000 is commonly used to mean "a gazillion" - like when the Psalm says God owns all the sheep on "a thousand hills." What about the other million hills - does God not own all those two? So Revelation describes a long time, and traces 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are *concurrent*, not consecutive.

What does a particular chapter or image mean? The Bible Project is very good.
Revelation 1 to 11

Revelation 12 to 22.

keras · Nov 2, 2021

DavidPT said:
What If Every Satellite Fell to Earth?

It is a known fact that pressure from the suns emissions do, normally gradually; cause satellites to fall out of orbit.
So, the massive pressure wave of a big CME will make all those satellites facing this wave, to crash back to the earth and those on the other side, may fly off into outer space.
Either way, it bye bye our communications, GPS systems and surveillance.

DavidPT said:
And if that were to happen, falling satellites would be the least of our worries.

Right.
There will be terrible fires, disastrous earthquakes, violent storms and huge tsunamis. But it will be possible for many, if not most people to survive.
As this sudden and shocking disaster will strike the Middle East at mid day, Zephaniah 2:4, the other half of the earth won't be affected initially, but as the earth rotates, will be. They will have warning to take cover.

Acts29 · Nov 2, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Incorrect. The letters to the 7 churches have references to churches he knew, with technologies and water plumbing systems he drew on from their time as a metaphor. The "hot nor cold, but lukewarm" statement comes from Laodicea's plumbing systems that often made people sick. Read Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse now and then" to learn more.

Too many Hollywood OMEN movies have coloured the way Americans read Revelation. Everyone wants to 'crack the code' and figure out when stuff is going to happen - disobeying and disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know. Instead of a future timetable to take random guesses at, John indicates that Revelation is about the Roman persecution of the church that is about to start. 4 times in Revelation 1 he indicates it is to his generation:-

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (verse 1)
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3). How could the early church obey something about 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near." (verse 3)
4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the TRIBULATION and the kingdom and the PATIENT ENDURANCE that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Verse 9 - ESV - capitals mine.) John already SHARES in *their* TRIBULATION! John was already in jail because of his gospel work, and already demonstrating the common theme throughout the rest of Revelation - that we overcome THIS time we are in by "patient endurance".

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline. It's about how to stay faithful in the time between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day. John uses powerful biblical symbols to describe (not prescribe) what this time will be like. And it could be a long time before Jesus Returns. The number 1000 is commonly used to mean "a gazillion" - like when the Psalm says God owns all the sheep on "a thousand hills." What about the other million hills - does God not own all those two? So Revelation describes a long time, and traces 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are *concurrent*, not consecutive.

What does a particular chapter or image mean? The Bible Project is very good.
Revelation 1 to 11

Revelation 12 to 22.

I applaud your effort, but I am not moved at all. Jesus Himself taught me these things, in person. God spoke about the time of the end to ALL the prophets. Why would stop doing that in the NT? Let me ask you a question.

Revelation 2:25 But hold fast what you have till I come.

Did Jesus come in the lifetime of those people or that ancient church? If not, are you not then implying that Jesus did not make good on His promise?

eclipsenow · Nov 2, 2021

Acts29 said:
I applaud your effort, but I am not moved at all. Jesus Himself taught me these things, in person.

Oh good - another special 'in person' revelation from God? Cool!
So your timetable directly matches the Coronal Mass Ejection timetable of Keras?

keras · Nov 2, 2021

eclipsenow said:
disobeying and disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know.

Amos 3:7 Indeed the Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants.
Revelation 1:1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ,......to show His servants what must soon take place. [It will be soon for Jesus in heaven, but nearly 2000 years of earth time.]

No one during Jesus time on earth would know, or thru this age. But now, as Daniel 12:10 says: a few will understand.
From the attitude of you and my Pastor, for example: people don't want to know. Which constitutes a rejection and denigration of much scripture.

Acts29 · Nov 2, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Oh good - another special 'in person' revelation from God? Cool!

You neither know me, nor have ever known me. However, in the 4th quarter of 2022 after the summer of disasters in America you will. I told you what I did specifically to draw out your disbelief for the record. Thanks! You would not have believed any of the prophets of old just as you do not believe any of the prophets speaking today.

eclipsenow said:
So your timetable directly matches the Coronal Mass Ejection timetable of Keras?

No.

Christian Gedge · Nov 2, 2021

Acts29 said:
However, in the 4th quarter of 2022 after the summer of disasters in America you will.

In the 2nd quarter of 2022 the All Blacks are going to beat the Wallabies at Rugby. :liturgy:

Spiritual Jew · Nov 2, 2021

keras said:
It seems, from the archeological evidence that what destroyed Sodom, was a volcanic eruption. It was in the Rift valley, a tectonic plate break.

Why do you not just accept what the Bible says? Do you have a hard time believing in supernatural events or something? It was not a volcanic eruption, it was fire and sulfur that God supernaturally rained down on them.

Genesis 19:23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.

Luke 17:29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed

eclipsenow · Nov 2, 2021

keras said:
Amos 3:7 Indeed the Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants.
Revelation 1:1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ,......to show His servants what must soon take place. [It will be soon for Jesus in heaven, but nearly 2000 years of earth time.]

Yes - the plan was sealed and then unsealed.
We know it now.
The mystery of God? That by being crucified, the Son of Man would bring include the Gentiles as well as the Jews - and that his kingdom would flow out into all the world. That there would be someone from EVERY tongue and tribe and nation and people on earth - as we see in Revelation.

Timing has nothing to do with it - Jesus has everything to do with it.
Which is why the Johnny Cash song I listed above has more truth in it than all your biblical distortions and EVERYTHING you've ever written about timelines - and why I remain utterly agnostic about the future. He could return tonight, or in 10,000 years. We just. Don't. KNOW!

No one during Jesus time on earth would know, or thru this age. But now, as Daniel 12:10 says: a few will understand.
From the attitude of you and my Pastor, for example: people don't want to know. Which constitutes a rejection and denigration of much scripture.

I know - you're very special and we're all really naughty for rejecting the Holy CME's. I mean, I thought the progress from the OT towards the NT was all about Jesus, but apparently it was the Holy CME's all the time. Even Revelation 6 tricked me! Hide us from the FACE of the CMEs! It was there all along. :oldthumbsup:

claninja · Nov 2, 2021

Acts29 said:
You neither know me, nor have ever known me. However, in the 4th quarter of 2022 after the summer of disasters in America you will. I told you what I did specifically to draw out your disbelief for the record. Thanks! You would not have believed any of the prophets of old just as you do not believe any of the prophets speaking today.

No.

“When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him”

Gonna save this thread. Can’t wait to come back to this post in the 4th quarter of 2022 after a “summer of disasters”, and see if your personal revelations were true….

eclipsenow · Nov 2, 2021

Acts29 said:
You neither know me, nor have ever known me. However, in the 4th quarter of 2022 after the summer of disasters in America you will. I told you what I did specifically to draw out your disbelief for the record. Thanks! You would not have believed any of the prophets of old just as you do not believe any of the prophets speaking today.
No.

OOoh, mysterious.... 'summer of disasters'.... ooooh. I guess you've probably spelt your own special timetable out somewhere? As if Trump and Coronavirus and Climate Change are not scary enough!

In one short paragraph what is the "Summer of Disasters" meant to have? The Abomination? Plagues? What?

It seems end-times-tables are a dime-a-dozen these days - as are so-called 'Prophets' that God 'told' something special. :oldthumbsup:

When it doesn't happen as you predicted, just don't do a Waco, OK?

keras · Nov 2, 2021

eclipsenow said:
I thought the progress from the OT towards the NT was all about Jesus, but apparently it was the Holy CME's all the time.

It is.
John B. prophesied about Jesus: His winnowing shovel is in His hand and He will clear His threshing floor. He will gather the good grain into His granary, but the chaff, He will burn on an unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:12

Isaiah 34:5-8 The Lord has a Day of vengeance, the Redeemer of Zion has a time for retribution. His sword will appear in the sky, see how it descends in judgement onto a people whom the Lord has doomed to destruction. Great will be the slaughter in Edom and He has a sacrifice in Bozrah, His sword of punishment will be sated with blood, the earth will drink deeply of their blood.

Isaiah 63:1-6 Who is this, coming from Bozrah and Edom with His garments splashed with blood, striding along in His mighty power? It is the Lord, proclaiming victory, He who is strong to save. He treads the winepress of the nations, with no one to help Him. He tramples them in His fury, shatters them in His anger and spills their blood all over the ground. The Lord has resolved on a Day of vengeance, because the year for redeeming His own has come.

Jeremiah 49:12-13 & 22 These are the Words of the Lord: Those who were not doomed to drink the cup of My wrath, must drink it none the less: are you alone to go unpunished? You will not be spared, I will judge you as well. I will swoop down upon Bozrah and on that Day, Edom will lose all their strength. I swear that Bozrah will become desolate, an object of reproach and all her towns will be ruined forever. [Not for all time, see: Ezekiel 36:33-36, Isaiah 61:4]

Amos 1:12 I shall send fire to consume the palaces of Bozrah. Ref: REB, NIV.

Bozrah – Hebrew = a sheepfold, also means: glad tidings. At present Bozrah can be identified as the place where the true descendants of Jacob currently reside. That is: the Western nations.

Edom – the descendants of Esau, a metaphor for non-Israelite peoples. Edom may represent all the Godless peoples of the world. .

‘The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath’, Cannot the same Day as the Return of the Messiah. Psalms 11:4-6, Rev. 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 13:9-13, Isaiah 61:2b, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 30:1-3, Joel 2:11 &31, Micah 5:15, Nahum 1:2-6, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Malachi 4:1, Romans 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10

‘His sword appears in the sky and descends in judgement’, Isaiah 30:25-28, Jeremiah 4:20-28, Jeremiah 23:19, Jeremiah 47:6-7, Jeremiah 50:35-38, Ezekiel 21:3-7 & 14-16

‘He treads the winepress of the nations’, Revelation 14:17-20, Jeremiah 9:21-22, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Jeremiah 49:35-37, Habakkuk 3:12, Psalm 65:1-3

‘I shall send fire’, Ezekiel 20:46-48, Joel 1:19-20, Amos 1:4,7,10,12,14. Amos 2:2,5. Obadiah 1:18, Zephaniah 3:8, Hebrews 10:27

‘I will judge you as well’, Ezekiel 23:32-34, Obadiah 1:16, Jeremiah 30:11, Ezekiel 7:1-27, Hosea 4:1-3, Hosea 12:2, Amos 4:12

‘The year for redeeming My own has come’, We are nearing the end of this age, the Lord will take action to correct His creation, as He did so long ago: in the days of Noah. Isaiah 66:15-16, Micah 5:10-15, Habakkuk 3:12, Ezekiel 7:14

eclipsenow · Nov 2, 2021

keras said:
It is.
John B. prophesied about Jesus: His winnowing shovel is in His hand and He will clear His threshing floor. He will gather the good grain into His granary, but the chaff, He will burn on an unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:12

Wow - even very eternal heaven and hell, sheep and goats verses are nerfed down to one astronomical event with you. Are you sure you're not starting a cult? This would appear to be close to redefining the gospel. I mean, you're probably going to turn around and complain that it's against forum rules to suggest something like that - but when you start transforming basic gospel doctrines like heaven and hell into solar flares then I think we've got a problem here that itself is breaching forum rules!

keras · Nov 2, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Are you sure you're not starting a cult?

The cult you belong to, is one that discounts Bible prophecy and ignores the many warnings given us, of what the Lord intends to do.

I belong to the mainstream, who take note of and believe in the Prophetic Word. Dramatic events which can and will take place and very likely to happen quite soon.

eclipsenow · Nov 3, 2021

keras said:
The cult you belong to, is one that discounts Bible prophecy and ignores the many warnings given us, of what the Lord intends to do.

I belong to the mainstream, who take note of and believe in the Prophetic Word. Dramatic events which can and will take place and very likely to happen quite soon.

You know the vast majority of Christendom from both Protestant and Catholic circles read Matthew 3:12 VERY differently to you - don't you? You are aware of this aren't you? :scratch:

Acts29 · Nov 3, 2021

eclipsenow said:
OOoh, mysterious.... 'summer of disasters'.... ooooh. I guess you've probably spelt your own special timetable out somewhere? As if Trump and Coronavirus and Climate Change are not scary enough!

In one short paragraph what is the "Summer of Disasters" meant to have? The Abomination? Plagues? What?

It seems end-times-tables are a dime-a-dozen these days - as are so-called 'Prophets' that God 'told' something special. When it doesn't happen as you predicted, just don't do a Waco, OK?
View attachment 307955

I only ask you one thing. Please do not delete your comments here for at least two years. Thanks.

eclipsenow · Nov 3, 2021

Acts29 said:
I only ask you one thing. Please do not delete your comments here for at least two years. Thanks.

I only ask one thing - that you please be more specific than you are - because like any astrologer you could come back with "But it was all fulfilled exactly as I said - the economy took a hit with that terrible legislation of Joe Biden's" or something equally unimpressive. What. Are. You. Saying?

Acts29 · Nov 3, 2021

eclipsenow said:
I only ask one thing - that you please be more specific than you are - because like any astrologer you could come back with "But it was all fulfilled exactly as I said - the economy took a hit with that terrible legislation of Joe Biden's" or something equally unimpressive. What. Are. You. Saying?

I'm not really a "told you so" kind of guy. It is kind of pointless after the fact. See post #118 for more details.

eclipsenow · Nov 3, 2021

Acts29 said:
I'm not really a "told you so" kind of guy. It is kind of pointless after the fact. See post #118 for more details.

But I am a "told you so" kind of guy - not because I care deeply about scriptural truth. And I care about revealing false prophets for what they are - people we should ignore.

I don't believe we need or are to expect prophecy today.
I believe in the Sufficiency of Scriptures - that great Reformation catchphrase "By Christ alone, by grace alone, by faith alone, by scriptures alone."

The irony is this is spelt out in Hebrews 1 where we are also told something about the Last Days and when they started.

Hebrews 1 "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."

1. The Last Days started 2000 years ago when Jesus spread the good news and gave the Apostles the authority to write scripture through the special power of the Holy Spirit. (No one in Charismatic churches today actually SEES real tongues of fire descending on the heads of those 'receiving the spirit').

2. We don't need prophets any more - Jesus has replaced all that. (Prophetic 'gifts' in the new testament are word driven gifts - applying the gospel to a generation's blind spots.)

Also to confirm this high view of the Sufficiency of Scripture for our lives is...
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

That is, THOROUGHLY equipped. Not partially - and personal prophetic 'words' are the good stuff. Thoroughly and abundantly equipped to be wise enough to please God in this world. The vast majority of stuff people ask for 'prophetic words' about in their lives are silly first-world-problems anyway. As long as we are within God's MORAL will, we have the freedom and RESPONSIBILITY to be adults making wise decisions. God can and will use that to grow his church. I have seen it. Sydney Anglican churches are some of the fastest growing in Australia.

Acts29 · Nov 3, 2021

eclipsenow said:
But I am a "told you so" kind of guy - not because I care deeply about scriptural truth. And I care about revealing false prophets for what they are - people we should ignore.

I don't believe we need or are to expect prophecy today.
I believe in the Sufficiency of Scriptures - that great Reformation catchphrase "By Christ alone, by grace alone, by faith alone, by scriptures alone."

The irony is this is spelt out in Hebrews 1 where we are also told something about the Last Days and when they started.

Hebrews 1 "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."

1. The Last Days started 2000 years ago when Jesus spread the good news and gave the Apostles the authority to write scripture through the special power of the Holy Spirit. (No one in Charismatic churches today actually SEES real tongues of fire descending on the heads of those 'receiving the spirit').

2. We don't need prophets any more - Jesus has replaced all that. (Prophetic 'gifts' in the new testament are word driven gifts - applying the gospel to a generation's blind spots.)

Also to confirm this high view of the Sufficiency of Scripture for our lives is...
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

That is, THOROUGHLY equipped. Not partially - and personal prophetic 'words' are the good stuff. Thoroughly and abundantly equipped to be wise enough to please God in this world. The vast majority of stuff people ask for 'prophetic words' about in their lives are silly first-world-problems anyway. As long as we are within God's MORAL will, we have the freedom and RESPONSIBILITY to be adults making wise decisions. God can and will use that to grow his church. I have seen it. Sydney Anglican churches are some of the fastest growing in Australia.

When did God ever say He was done speaking to His people? Many try to close God up in the pages of a book so as to control and silence Him. Many prefer a past tense God rather than a present tense God.
You say there are no prophets in the church? See what Paul and Jesus said here:

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
Matthew 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

Notice in the scriptures that it is always the religious people that persecute the prophets, not the heathen. Don't worry. I was built to handle it.

Most OT prophetic passages futurists *think* are about the End Times, aren't

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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Amillennialist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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Most OT prophetic passages futurists think are about the End Times, aren't