Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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rjs330

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Would you say that these verses, for instance, "merely hint at the possibility of UR"? or do they not plainly point towards the salvation of all and is this not what the Good News of the gospel actually is?

for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Colossians 1 19-20​

Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18
If there is a non-UR reading to these verses, would you mind saying what that is?

Let's look at context again for Collisions.

For we have heard of your trust in the Messiah Yeshua and of the love you have for all God’s people.Both spring from the confident hope that you will receive what is stored up for you in heaven. You heard of this earlier in the message about the truth. This Good Newshas made its presence felt among you, just as it is also be ing fruitful and multiply ing throughout the world in the same way as it has among you since the day you heard and understood the grace of God as it really is.Also he is head of the Body, the Messianic Community — he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might hold first place in everything.For it pleased God to have his full being live in his Sonand through his Son to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace through him, through having his Son shed his blood by being executed on a stake.In other words, you, who at one time were separated from God and had a hostile attitude towards him because of your wicked deeds,he has now reconciled in the Son’s physical body through his death; in order to present you holy and without defect or reproach before himself —provided, of course, that you continue in your trusting, grounded and steady, and don’t let yourselves be moved away from the hope offered in the Good News you heard. This is the Good News that has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven; and I, Sha’ul, have become a servant of it. - Colossians 1:4-6,18-23 Colossians1:4-6,18-23 CJ - - Bible Gateway

Trust in the messiah is what provides for the salvation. And is shown through out the passage. Paul tells them that they are reconciled to God if they keep in trusting and not be moved away.

Again we see it is the trust in Christ that provides the reconciliation. It is not automatic for everyone.
 
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Hmm

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There has been 48 hours without new posts in this thread. Come on everyone, let's get to 1500 messages :).

Congrats to @Hmm for a topic that reached 1500 posts. Speech, speech...

Well, it's a proud moment but I must stay humble. I may change my name to Hmmble to remind me.

Maybe it's a good time to try to sum up this thread so far... The OP asked what is it about universal restoration that many people find so annoying and I'd say the most common objection we've seen is that we shouldn't believe in UR because this would cause us to live a life of depravity because we can always repent after death and be saved.

This is a very odd argument to me. Firstly, it's saying that the Christian life is dull and boring and that you're only putting up with it because you want to avoid going to hell. You really see a life of sin as being a lot more fun and this is what you would prefer if you could be saved afterwards. This is pretty sad to me and ignores the love, joy and peace that comes from knowing God. If the only reason to be a Christian is the fear of hell then it's inevitably going to be a pretty dismal experience.

And secondly, it's a very irrational argument because you can say very much the same thing about the non-universalist view that we can sin all we like as long as we make sure we repent on our deathbed. So repenting in this life is fine even if it's done at the very last minute and this doesn't lead us to live a fun-filled and sinful, but repenting in the next life suddenly makes a mockery of it all!

In any event, the idea that Christian universalism says to sin now and repent later is just another strawman, along with all the many others we have seen put up in this thread. The need to misrepresent Christian universalism in order to argue against.it simply testifies to its simple truth to me that one day God will achieve His purpose of being "all in all".
 
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If that is all you got from this thread then you have been operating on auto pilot. I have been engaged in this thread for quite some time and I can only recall 2-3 times when anyone said anything like your final paragraph.
.....Here is my main objection UR cannot be supported by any single verse/passage where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally says words to the effect, "All mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike even after death."
I don't mean something written by a prophet or a NT disciple but something that begins "God said...." or 'Jesus, said..."
Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] (Judith xvi. 17).​
 
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In any event, the idea that Christian universalism says to sin now and repent later is just another strawman, along with all the many others we have seen put up in this thread. The need to misrepresent Christian universalism in order to argue against.it simply testifies to its simple truth to me that one day God will achieve His purpose of being "all in all".
Exactly.
It's just a debate tactic. If you can't prove something is wrong, try to discredit the source, thus casting doubt. Shadow boxing, basically.
 
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Hmm

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Exactly.
It's just a debate tactic. If you can't prove something is wrong, try to discredit the source, thus casting doubt. Shadow boxing, basically.

Exactly, it's easier to defeat a shadow or a strawman than the real thing but it's a bit pointless to do so.

In an article in the Baptist Times, Robin Parry describes seven strawman arguments used against Christian universalism. To keep it brief, I'll summarise only five of them but first here's his definition from the article of what universalism actually is:

"Christian universalists are (mostly) orthodox, Trinitarian, Christ-centred, gospel-focused, Bible-affirming, missional Christians. What makes them universalists is that they believe that God loves all people, wants to save all people, sent Christ to redeem all people, and will achieve that goal.
In a nutshell, it is the view that, in the end, God will redeem all people through Christ. Christian universalists believe that the destiny of humanity is ‘written’ in the body of the risen Jesus and, as such, the story of humanity will not end with a tomb."

Strawman: Universalists don’t believe in hell
Historically and today, all Christian universalists believe in hell. The Christian debate is not about whether hell will be a reality (all agree that it will) but, rather, what the nature of that reality is. Will it be ECT? Will it be annihilation? Or will it be a state from which people can be redeemed? Most universalists believe that hell is not simply retributive punishment but a painful yet corrective/educative state from which people will eventually exit.

So it is not hell that universalists deny so much as certain views about hell.

Strawman: Universalists don’t believe the Bible
This strawman is that universalists are wooly liberals that reject the clear teaching of the Bible. Surely all good Bible-believing Christians believe that some/many/most people are damned forever? But Christian universalists do believe the Bible. They just interpret parts of it differently than Team Hell.

The problem is this: there are some biblical texts that seem to affirm universalism (eg Romans 5:18; 1 Corinthians 15:22; Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:11) but there are others that seem to deny it (eg Matthew 25:45; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Revelations 14:11; 20:10-15).

So how do we hold these two threads together? Do we start with the hell passages and reread the universalist texts in the light of them? That is the ECT route. Or, do we start with universalist passages and reinterpret the hell texts in the light of them? That is the universalists approach.

Or do we try to hold both sets of biblical teachings in some kind of tension. Parry suggests there are various proposals for how we might do that, some leaning towards traditionalism, and others towards universalism.

There is also the question of wider biblical-theological themes and their relevance, e.g. biblical teaching on God’s love, justice, punishment, the cross-resurrection, covenant, etc. How do these affect our theology of hell?

So it's not just about finding "proof texts" to win arguments with but about making the best sense of the Bible as a whole. Which best fits the biblical narrative? Universalists believe that the ending in which God redeems his whole creation does, while the Team Hell believes the ending in which God is eternally tormenting/torturing people does.

Parry's point is that this debate is not a debate between Bible-believing Christians and universalist liberals. It's rather a debate between two sets of Bible-believing Christians on how best to understand scripture.

Strawman: Universalists don’t think sin is very bad
Universalists take sin as seriously as anyone else, it's just that they believe that God’s love, power, grace, and mercy are bigger and stronger than sin. Universalists don't have a low view of sin, they have a high view of grace: "Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more."

Strawman: Universalists believe in God’s love but forget his justice and wrath
Christian universalists typically they think that God’s divine nature can't be divided up into conflicting parts in such a way that some of His actions are loving (eg, saving sinners) while others are just and full of anger (eg, ECT).They see all of God’s actions as motivated by ‘holy love’. Everything God does is holy, completely just, and completely loving.

So whatever hell is about it must be compatible not simply with divine justice but also with divine love. Which means that it must, in some way, have the good of those in hell as part of its rationale.
Universalists feel that one potential danger with ECT is that while it makes much of God justice and anger it's not incompatible with his love and so divides up the unity of His nature.

Strawman: Universalists think that all roads lead to God
This is to confuse universalism (the view that God will one day save all people through Christ) with pluralism (the view that there are many paths to God and that Jesus is simply one of them). But Christian universalists deny pluralism. They insist that salvation is found only through the atoning work of Christ. Without Jesus nobody would be redeemed.

Now there is a disagreement between Christians, not only Universalists, about whether you need to have explicit faith in Jesus to be saved. Some Christians, called exclusivists, say Yes and others, called inclusivists, say No. So, for inclusivists you can be saved even if, for instance, you have never heard the gospel. Inclusivists would say that if someone responds in love and faith to the truncated divine revelation that they have received then God can unite them to Christ.

But we need to be careful not to confuse the discussion between exclusivists and inclusivists with the issue of universalism. Many people make that mistake. The former debate concerns how people can experience the salvation won by Christ while the latter concerns how many people will be saved. Two different questions.

I hope this helps clear up some of the common misunderstandings about Christian universalism.
 
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rjs330

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Well, it's a proud moment but I must stay humble. I may change my name to Hmmble to remind me.

Maybe it's a good time to try to sum up this thread so far... The OP asked what is it about universal restoration that many people find so annoying and I'd say the most common objection we've seen is that we shouldn't believe in UR because this would cause us to live a life of depravity because we can always repent after death and be saved.

This is a very odd argument to me. Firstly, it's saying that the Christian life is dull and boring and that you're only putting up with it because you want to avoid going to hell. You really see a life of sin as being a lot more fun and this is what you would prefer if you could be saved afterwards. This is pretty sad to me and ignores the love, joy and peace that comes from knowing God. If the only reason to be a Christian is the fear of hell then it's inevitably going to be a pretty dismal experience.

And secondly, it's a very irrational argument because you can say very much the same thing about the non-universalist view that we can sin all we like as long as we make sure we repent on our deathbed. So repenting in this life is fine even if it's done at the very last minute and this doesn't lead us to live a fun-filled and sinful, but repenting in the next life suddenly makes a mockery of it all!

In any event, the idea that Christian universalism says to sin now and repent later is just another strawman, along with all the many others we have seen put up in this thread. The need to misrepresent Christian universalism in order to argue against.it simply testifies to its simple truth to me that one day God will achieve His purpose of being "all in all".

I don't think many of us said that at all. I think you are stuck on that. The fact is, scripture does not support it. No where does it indicate that after death you have a chance at repentance. After death comes the judgement. And as God has indicated that your name MUST be found in the Lambs Book of Life. And it also says not everyone is found there.

Jesus told us that few would find salvation. He did not say everyone will.

You can believe in universalism if you want. But Jesus certainly didn't.
 
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rjs330

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Universalists feel that one potential danger with ECT is that while it makes much of God justice and anger it's not incompatible with his love and so divides up the unity of His nature.

No it doesn't. It affirms the unity of his nature. Universalism puts God's love ABOVE his Justice. God is not duplicitous. He is fully equal within his self. This his love is not overcome by his justice and his justice is not overcome by his love. He is perfect in his righteousness, perfect in his love and perfect in his judgement. If he does send someone to hell it is perfect.
 
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In an article in the Baptist Times, Robin Parry describes seven strawman arguments used against Christian universalism.
Wow. And wow.
What a great post. Thanks. I'm a big fan of Robin Parry.
Can you post a link to the article, if it is available online.
I'm a bit surprised that the Baptist Times would publish this.
It seems that UR is gaining some traction in the Christian world.
 
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You can believe in universalism if you want. But Jesus certainly didn't.
Seriously?
Consider the expense.
Jesus gave his life to save a handful of souls and then sent countless billions to a forever burning hell? This is folly on the grandest scale imaginable.

We've been brainwashed to believe in a forever burning hell. With malice and forethought the Church created this tool to use against us. It's all about spiritual/political control. Hellgate. We are the whistle-blowers.
 
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Saint Steven

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... Universalism puts God's love ABOVE his Justice. God is not duplicitous. ...
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????
Doesn't God's love BELONG above his justice?

Where does the Bible declare that "God is justice" rather than "God is love"?

And how could you declare that the caricature of God you have bought is NOT duplicitous? You have created God as a two-sided coin. Is our destiny decided by a coin-toss? - lol
 
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Hmm

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Wow. And wow.
What a great post. Thanks. I'm a big fan of Robin Parry.
Can you post a link to the article, if it is available online.
I'm a bit surprised that the Baptist Times would publish this.
It seems that UR is gaining some traction in the Christian world.

Yes, here's the link to the article: 7 Myths About Universalism. There's a 404 error with the Baptist Times link.

Yes, it is encouraging that UR is gaining popularity and I don't think that's surprising once all the tired strawman that surround it are dispensed with.
 
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Saint Steven

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There's really nothing I can say. I'll let this speak for itself.
Calling all rational minds... (can you read me?) - lol

rjs330 said:
If he does send someone to hell it is perfect.
 
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Hmm

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Are saying his judgement isn't perfect? I say it is. If God sends someone to hell his judgement is not flawed.

How could I possibly be saying that when I don't believe in ECT? Heavy sigh.
 
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Yes, here's the link to the article: 7 Myths About Universalism. There's a 404 error with the Baptist Times link.
The link worked for me. Thanks.
I smiled when I saw the photo of Robin with a proper cup of tea. (pinky out for balance)
 
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rjs330

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Seriously?
Consider the expense.
Jesus gave his life to save a handful of souls and then sent countless billions to a forever burning hell? This is folly on the grandest scale imaginable.

We've been brainwashed to believe in a forever burning hell. With malice and forethought the Church created this tool to use against us. It's all about spiritual/political control. Hellgate. We are the whistle-blowers.

Yes seriously. What did Jesus say?

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but rather so that through him, the world might be saved.Those who trust in him are not judged; those who do not trust have been judged already, in that they have not trusted in the one who is God’s only and unique Son.“Now this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness rather than the light. Why? Because their actions were wicked.For everyone who does evil things hates the light and avoids it, so that his actions won’t be exposed.But everyone who does what is true comes to the light, so that all may see that his actions are accomplished through God.” - John 3:16-21 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:16-21 - Complete Jewish Bible

He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;the field is the world. As for the good seed, these are the people who belong to the Kingdom; and the weeds are the people who belong to the Evil One.The enemy who sows them is the Adversary, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.Just as the weeds are collected and burned up in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out of his Kingdom all the things that cause people to sin and all the people who are far from Torah;and they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where people will wail and grind their teeth.Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let him hear!So it will be at the close of the age — the angels will go forth and separate the evil people from among the righteousand throw them into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth. - Matthew 13:37-43,49-50 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:37-43, Matthew 13:49-50 - Complete Jewish Bible

Jesus did not shy away from such a position. And HE is the messiah. It was HIS sacrifice to hat saves us. Don't you believe he knows and understands the consequences of rejecting HIS sacrifice?
 
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