Would you prefer it if “Five point Calvinism” were true?

So what “rhetorical” point contrary to the literal meaning was Moses making when he recorded God’s words? (Since you have explained how Paul was ‘just kidding’ when he quoted it under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.)

[PS. This is why some Doctrine of Grace advocates accuse some that reject the Doctrines of Grace of “not understanding” … the Bible makes some clear statements that our opponents claim mean the opposite of what they say … you say God does NOT choose whom He will have mercy on, we choose who God will have mercy on.]

Hmm said:

It's not a scientific theory so of course you can't prove it but it's obviously true. If someone really believed that everything is their life was fated, why wouldn't they life a complete hedonistic life? Why would they bother even getting out of bed? The fact that people don't live like that is proof, if you like, that they don't believe that everything is predetermined.

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So Religious people in general, would live more hedonistic lives because they are more Calvinistic than non religious people.

So show your data to back your theory.

SkyWriting said:

So Religious people in general, would live more hedonistic lives because they are more Calvinistic than non religious people.

So show your data to back your theory.

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I can't because I said if they believed that everything was predetermined. The fact is, no-one really does believe that because no-one lives as if it's true. You look both ways before you walk across the road, no? If you really believed you were fated to be run over or not, you wouldn't bother. Would you agree with that?

Hmm said:

I can't because I said if they believed that everything was predetermined. The fact is, no-one really does believe that because no-one lives as if it's true. You look both ways before you walk across the road, no? If you really believed you were fated to be run over or not, you wouldn't bother. Would you agree with that?

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Jesus didn't have that problem and he was the biggest proponent of God's will. Sorry No.
Remember, Jesus didn't meet with that many people in the world.

atpollard said:

17 So the LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the LORD said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”
- Exodus 33​

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God is not unknowable. Although he reserves the right to "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.", that's not the end of the story. Go back a few verses and you can see that Moses found favor in God's sight - and God blessed him for that. That is why people study the life of Moses and other Godly men, so they too may have God's favor.

God is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek him:

atpollard said:

So what “rhetorical” point contrary to the literal meaning was Moses making when he recorded God’s words? (Since you have explained how Paul was ‘just kidding’ when he quoted it under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.)

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After complaining vehemently about being straw manned - you seem to have forgotten your own words.

Cormack said:

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

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No, I believe in free will.

Cormack said:

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

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No, it makes God a monster.

renniks said:

No, it makes God a monster.

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Or perhaps people are the problem and God just a more knowledgeable about what He's doing.

SkyWriting said:

Jesus didn't have that problem and he was the biggest proponent of God's will. Sorry No.
Remember, Jesus didn't meet with that many people in the world.

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But we're not Jesus.

Hmm said:

But we're not Jesus.

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We are supposed to be.

SkyWriting said:

We are supposed to be.

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We are not meant to be Christ. That makes no sense. We are meant to be Christ-like.

Hmm said:

We are not meant to be Christ. That makes no sense. We are meant to be Christ-like.

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You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

SkyWriting said:

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

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No, I'm arguning because what you replied to me makes no sense, hard though I'm sure that is to believe.

Hmm said:

No, I'm arguing because what you replied to me makes no sense, hard though I'm sure that is to believe.

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This may make more sense:

John 13:15
For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you.

1 John 2:6
Whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Colossians 3:9-10
Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Titus 2:12
Training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,

Philippians 2:13
For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

2 Corinthians 10:5
We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

SkyWriting said:

This may make more sense:

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Not trying to start a argument, but it is best to start out with a precise set of statements of what you are trying to establish before you begin introducing supporting scriptures as we are not mind-readers. Its generally best to assume that your audience is somewhat clueless. Here you introduce 9 scriptural passages and don't state what you are trying to establish and yet you think you are adding clarity - no. This statement of where you are going is especially important when you are trying to convince others who have been opposing your views. Have a good day - to the Faithful In Christ (Ephesians 1:1).

PS: And please re-read Hmm's post #163 - my opinion, it is gold.

Cormack said:

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

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No.

Before I actually read the five points, I had always regarded them as a good thing. And the consensus seemed to be that Calvinism was superior to Arminianism.

Then I began to hear about three point Calvinists and those horrible five point Calvinists. Say what? I wondered what I was. - lol

When I checked into it I discovered that both Calvinism and Arminianism were woefully over-rated. I refuse to align myself with either one.

John Mullally said:

Not trying to start a argument, but it is best to start out with a precise set of statements of what you are trying to establish before you begin introducing supporting scriptures as we are not mind-readers. Its generally best to assume that your audience is somewhat clueless. Here you introduce 9 scriptural passages and don't state what you are trying to establish and yet you think you are adding clarity - no. This statement of where you are going is especially important when you are trying to convince others who have been opposing your views - that's the grace I give to the seemingly clueless Calvinists. Have a good day - to the Faithful In Christ (Ephesians 1:1).

PS: And please re-read Hmm's post #163 - my opinion, it is gold.

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You haven't sold me on how post#163 will benefit me.
What are the major benefits to me? What is your headline and sub head?

Hmm said:

I can't because I said if they believed that everything was predetermined. The fact is, no-one really does believe that because no-one lives as if it's true. You look both ways before you walk across the road, no? If you really believed you were fated to be run over or not, you wouldn't bother. Would you agree with that?

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No. There are "pure" Calvinists and they don't tend to act more reckless.

So your theory has no data to back it.
Even Jesus didn't act (much) more reckless than others.
And He credited the Father for everything.

SkyWriting said:

You haven't sold me on how post#163 will benefit me.
What are the major benefits to me? What is your headline and sub head?

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Benefit: To think straight

Hmm shows that no one truly acts as if everything in life is pre-determined. Otherwise, they could afford to act recklessly - after all, the result was going to happen anyway. Again, why look both ways before crossing the street? Whether you are hit by a car was decided long ago.

You cannot believe that everything is pre-determined and still believe that your conscious decisions have some bearing on what happens to you.