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Why don't you spell out what you think those two ministries entailed in the earthly. What happened, in your view, in each?
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What are Progressive/Evangelical views on Des Ford Investigative Judgement Thesis
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Why don't you spell out what you think those two ministries entailed in the earthly. What happened, in your view, in each?
My view is already known to you. However, I wish to look at this from opposing angles and question said views problems that i see...
If one does not agree with the SDA model (which was first put forward by the Millerites actually), then
how does one reconcile some of the following issues ( i will add more issue i see in subsequent posts after the following are addressed):
1. 2300 day prophecy
to use the argument they are "evenings and mornings" does not make any change at all...a single day in genesis is an evening and morning...so its still 2300 days)
2. the Golden Lampstand (either physically or metaphorically) exists in heaven before the throne of God.
I do not see it as relevant whether or not one considers the veil separates the Holy from MHP...the candlestick is referenced by John before the throne, so its clearly in the heavenly sanctuary in an area, before/in front of, the Ark/Mercy seat/Throne...what does this mean for the non SDA doctrine of the heavenly sanctuary?
Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 5:6 New International Version
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
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The day of Atonement is not yet part of my point...that is the SDA 1844 date section of the timeline that you disagree with.
We know from Jewish history that all of these feasts given to them by Moses was a rehearsal for things to come.
So, my problem is not with the type.
No one is arguing the Lamb of God and His one sacrifice for all part of the plan of salvation.
My point is simple...
Jesus did not die on the day of Atonement, he died on the Passover High Sabbath in approx A.D 31!
The day of Atonement is more than 6 months later according to the customary Jewish rehearsal of feasts given by God to Moses.
One cannot simply SKIP over the Holy Place ministry and jump to the DOA and MHP ministry!
So again, between Passover and Day of Atonement, what is your timeline of events?
1. What did/does Jesus our high Priest do during this period
2. How long did it take and what historical or biblical events prove your timeline?
We know from Jewish history that all of these feasts given to them by Moses was a rehearsal for things to come.
So, my problem is not with the type.
No one is arguing the Lamb of God and His one sacrifice for all part of the plan of salvation.
My point is simple...
Jesus did not die on the day of Atonement, he died on the Passover High Sabbath in approx A.D 31!
The day of Atonement is more than 6 months later according to the customary Jewish rehearsal of feasts given by God to Moses.
One cannot simply SKIP over the Holy Place ministry and jump to the DOA and MHP ministry!
So again, between Passover and Day of Atonement, what is your timeline of events?
1. What did/does Jesus our high Priest do during this period
2. How long did it take and what historical or biblical events prove your timeline?
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Thank you.
But the death for all the sacrifices in the DOA were already fulfilled in that death on the Passover, because there is only one.
Which means your insistence on the heavenly matching up with the earthly is misplaced. The heavenly is the true.
Once simply can and did.
Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
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No, I really do not know your view on what happened in the holy place ministry on earth and the MHP ministry on earth.
I would like you to spell it out, with Scripture. Because I get a variety of answers to that, even from Adventists.
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I am not trying to counter your argument with an SDA one.
All i am saying is that Daniel 8 says 2300 days and the sanctuary will be cleansed. Its clear to me this is an end time prophecy...it talks about end times.
The reference you gave above does not explain your point at all...it has nothing to do with the timeline issue. All you are explaining over and over again is that Jesus died once for all sin (that is plainly obvious, everyone already knows this)
I want to have you explain the timeline variance between the Passover and the day of Atonement 6 months later!
Do you not have an answer for this that is capable of being supported by anything more than "everything was fulfilled at the Passover"?
There is a huge issue with your answer...the Jewish nation practised/rehearsed for over 1 thousand years the yearly festivals and sanctuary services. A rehearsal is not some ambiguous event that has no meaning beyond itself...it means something, the timing of each event means something very specific.
You cannot argue blankly, it all stopped at the cross!
My immediate counter-argument and proof is that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost happened exactly 50 days "AFTER" the cross...it followed the sanctuary service timeline as expected! This appears to conflict with your statement already!
We also know that Jesus was born exactly on time as per the prophecy of Daniel, the start of his earthly ministry was exactly as prophesied, His death exactly as predicted to the day...Therefore, the Day of Atonement must also follow the rehearsed timeline in some form. If it does not, then one must have a biblical timeline explanation as to why, and when, it should take place (such as the 2300 day prophecy in Daniel 8)
I would like you to explain to me from your perspective (or that of Icedragons if need be), what another view of this timeline would look like!
You can use whatever biblical imagery you like...just give me the exact timeline of the festivals of the Old Testament and how they relate to the new and better covenant but remain in harmony with the original plan of salvation that was set in motion after the fall.
Gods plan of salvation did not change...it has never changed, the plan has always remained the same. Therefore the feasts that the Jews rehearsed for so long had meaning right to the end of time (the old Testament Sanctuary service timings are critically important...but after the cross what should these very specific time and date rehearsals look like).
As I have said, the only reference i can see to the specific timing of the end regarding these is in Daniel 8! I want someone to explain, if the Adventist timeline of 1844 is wrong, what does the other opposing view timeline look like! (everything that ended at the cross is unworkable...that fails the test so its useless, it points us to the Millerite fiasco all over again does it not?)
I am looking for all sorts of wild ideas as to how to form a new timeline...anything is on the table for investigation to see where it leads...that is the point of my very demanding posts here!
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Indeed. But you do need to spell out your view of the holy place and MHP ministry in the earthly.
There is little point in me typing it out again. I explain it and you don't read it.
The Scapegoat happened when the high priest left the sanctuary. That IS end time.
Do you get that? Do you agree? Do you disagree?
Jesus has not yet left the sanctuary in heaven, so my expectation is that will happen at the end of time.
Now, if you won't spell out what you think the holy place and mhp ministry were in the earthly, how can we possibly discuss the fulfillment which you keep asking about.
No, not just died. He is describing priestly activity. It is not just the death. It is the ministration of blood. The priest didn't even kill the sin offering for a rank and file person. The priest ministered the blood once it was killed.
And not just died once for all sin. Hebrews 9 specifically says He fulfilled definite things. For instance, it says He is the mediator of a new covenant. That was a service in the OT. It refers to the inauguration as completed, and that was a service in the OT. It refers to the red heifer, and that was brought about by a process.
And it does refer to the cleansing of the heavenly things. If you are looking for a fulfillment you might try the only NT passage that specifically addresses the cleansing of the heavenly things, quoted earlier. It did not describe just the death.
It described the entry, with blood, compared to that of the earthly high priest on the day of atonement. Did you read it?
I would like you to read what Hebrews actually says.
Showing you the text that describes the cleansing of the heavenly places, with blood, and parallel to the entry of the high priest yearly, with blood, is in fact talking about the Day of Atonement.
Your talking about the passover is you talking about the passover. It is not just the death. That is why it is necessary for you to state what you think the HP and MHP ministry is.
Post your scripture from the earthly type.
There is a big problem with your answer. You are looking at the description of the heavenly, the true, and trying to argue from the type. If you are going to ignore what Hebrews says, you won't find the NT fulfillment.
And if you don't know what the earthly type entailed, you won't know the fulfillment either.
I never said it did end at the cross. Quite the opposite. The High Priestly ministry was to minister the blood that was already shed. Jesus performed the blood rites. He died as the sacrifice on earth, but He also went to heaven and ministered that blood. He made purification for sins.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
That is not just the sacrifice. It involved sacrifice, AND blood ministration.
Already spelled out in regards to the scapegoat AFTER the high priest left the temple. But you need to spell out what actually happened in the DOA on earth with the high priest in the temple.
We will address Daniel 8. But again, I am waiting for your view of what happened in the hp and mhp in the earthly.
Did you read the earlier post where I explained the Spring feasts? You have many questions, but you rarely state whether you read what was typed, or whether you agree or not. Therefore I have no idea what you have processed or what you have not. It was some ways back now.
I am waiting for your explanation, with Scripture, of the earthly hp and mhp ministry, with scripture. I suspect we do not have the same view, so trying to point out fulfillments requires further clarification.
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My thought is the HP ministry on earth correlates with that of the heavenly.
The exact dates and times correlate too.
My point is, the Day of Atonement ministry cannot start before the Day of Pentecost, which cannot start until 50 days AFTER the Passover.
That means Christ cannot possibly start MHP ministry prior to this point.
Him sitting at the right hand of God is simply a return to his trinitarian position prior to the incarnation.
I think what is being left out is that he also adds High Priest to that title...but it does not change the sanctuary model or order of service. A copy is never a perfect replica, but it still looks the same and operates the same.
I do not believe the HP ministry ceased at the cross, resurrection or day of Pentecost. I base that on the example of the OT festival services given to the Israelites especially when one
adds to this the 2300 day/year statement in Daniel...clearly referring to sanctuary at the end times
I also believe Jesus cannot complete the HP ministry on earth...(because of the above).
So the dilemma now...when was the HP ministry completed, what did it consist of, and how do we know?
The exact dates and times correlate too.
My point is, the Day of Atonement ministry cannot start before the Day of Pentecost, which cannot start until 50 days AFTER the Passover.
That means Christ cannot possibly start MHP ministry prior to this point.
Him sitting at the right hand of God is simply a return to his trinitarian position prior to the incarnation.
I think what is being left out is that he also adds High Priest to that title...but it does not change the sanctuary model or order of service. A copy is never a perfect replica, but it still looks the same and operates the same.
I do not believe the HP ministry ceased at the cross, resurrection or day of Pentecost. I base that on the example of the OT festival services given to the Israelites especially when one
adds to this the 2300 day/year statement in Daniel...clearly referring to sanctuary at the end times
I also believe Jesus cannot complete the HP ministry on earth...(because of the above).
So the dilemma now...when was the HP ministry completed, what did it consist of, and how do we know?
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This is the part I am wanting you to discuss. What do you think the earthly HP ministry consisted of, and what did the earthly MHP ministry consist of, with Scripture. I suspect we do not agree on that at all, and it will make discussing the fulfillment difficult.
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The sanctuary is certainly referred to in regards to the end if time in Daniel. But it is not referring to the Day of Atonement. And the word is best rendered restored. The context of Daniel 8 is all about the ram and the goat, and the little horn. The cleansing of Daniel 8 is from the activity of the little horn. This is by the way, one of the things Des Ford pointed out, and the denominational consensus statement did acknowledge some of the issues.
Christ in the heavenly sanctuary
According to many older versions of the Bible, at the end of the 2300 days the sanctuary is to be "cleansed." The He brew word here is nisdaq, which has a broad range of possible meanings. Its basic idea is "make right," "justify," "vindicate," or "restore"; but "purify" and "cleanse" may be included within its conceptual range. In Daniel 8:14 it is evident that the word denotes the reversal of the evil caused by the power symbolized by the "little horn," and hence probably should be translated "restore."
The cleansing on the day of atonement is a cleansing for all the sins of the people. The cleansing in Daniel 8 is from the activity of the little horn.
This context problem was not a new one. I posted it earlier, but it may make more sense now. Cottrell relates how the denomination's scholars have been aware of it, and looking into it for some time.
This is from Spectrum Magazine, April, 1980. He was particularly asking about the idea that the Day of Atonement cleansing is referred to in Daniel 8:14, which is key to the Adventist sanctuary doctrine.
While editing Bible Readings, and in counsel with Elder Nichol as chief editor of the revision, I wrote to 27 leading Adventist Bible scholars for their response to a series of six carefully formulated questions designed to bring the best contemporary Adventist biblical scholarship to bear on the question. All 27 responded, many at considerable length. A careful analysis and synthesis of their replies provided no additional help with respect to the problems arising from our interpretation of Daniel 8:14, and made evident that we had no satisfactory answer to the criticisms being directed against our interpretation of this key Adventist passage. Thirteen replied that they knew of no other valid basis for making such an application; seven based it on analogy; five, on the authority of Ellen White; two, on what they referred to as a "fortunate accident" in translation. Not one of the 27 believed that there was a linguistic or contextual basis for applying Daniel 8:14 to the heavenly sanctuary, an antitypical day of atonement, or 1844.
The GC then set up the secret 5 year Problems in Daniel Committee to look into the issue. But it could not reach a consensus, being split in opinion. They never released minutes or a report, though there is some report in the GC archives that Wilson mentioned he had read. This was disclosed at the Glacier View session by Elder Wilson (General Conference President), and then published in the Ministry Magazine special, October, 1980.
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The holy place ministry is just what the priests do throughout the year. It involves all kinds of offerings such as sin offerings, fellowship offerings, red heifer, regular burnt offerings, etc.
The Most Holy Place ministry refers to the Day of Atonement as you mentioned.
The author of Hebrews spells out the earthly ministries:
Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.
After summarizing the layout he states:
Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
The HP ministry involved all the priests. The MHP involves only the high priest.
The HP ministry happens regularly throughout the year. The MHP once a year
In the HP ministry the priest can enter the first compartment to take care of their regular duties (including the shewbread, lamps, etc.). But in the MHP ministry there is a specific duty, and you cannot enter without bringing blood.
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The HP ministry consisted of all the various duties of the priests throughout the year.
So one thing did end at the cross. Jesus became the one sacrifice. There is never another sacrifice.
So everything that corresponded to killing a sacrifice is done.
Now as to what happened after the death of the sacrifice, that was not done. There still had to be ministration of that sacrifice.
One of the key differences though between the Adventist view and most others is what that blood ministration actually meant.
Adventists indicate that the blood from the sin offering transferred sin to the sanctuary.
While others indicate that the blood from the sin offering, when ministered, brought forgiveness and atonement.
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Firstly, it is not possible the Day of Atonement started at Jesus death, ressurection, or ascension into heaven in the sense it was according to Old Testament feasts/Sanctuary Service. We also cannot argue the OT sanctuary service stopped at the cross in its entirety because...the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples on the Day of Pentecost whilst they were gathered in the upper room. They then began preaching in languages that many people from different regions could understand ...each in his own language.
Yom Kippur is defined as a time for the opening of the books...so when did this begin according to your belief?
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You didn't quote it. And you didn't quote the source it links to.
According to Jewish tradition, God inscribes each person's fate for the coming year into a book, the Book of Life, on Rosh Hashanah, and waits until Yom Kippur to "seal" the verdict.
Now I did go to the article that it refers to, and I agree on a few points of what it say, and not others. There is an aspect of judgment as they mention, and they refer to the part about afflicting yourself, which is found in Lev. 23. Those who did not were cut off.
However, I asked you to post Scripture for what the most holy place ministry is, not Jewish tradition.
What did the high priest do in the most holy place on the Day of Atonement?
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Where in Scripture does it define the day of atonement as the opening of the books? That is why I wanted you to describe what you think it is.
Where in the Day of Atonement descriptions do we see that?
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Here are some description of what the high priest would do when entering the most holy place on the day of atonement:
Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.
When the high priest went into the sanctuary he presented cleansing blood for cleansing from sin for the sanctuary and the whole assembly of Israel.
This is summarized in Hebrews 9:
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
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click on the words Yom Kippur in the post above...(its a hotlink thats why its in light blue) the idea being readers would actually read the article to find out the information in context and learn something important in the process.
did anyone realise the following...(click on the light blue text Icedragon to find your reference)
It was noted that the year AD1844 was also the Year AH 1260. Sears tied Daniel's prophecies in with the Book of Revelation in the New Testament in support of Baháʼí teaching, interpreting the year 1260 as the "times, time and half a time" of Daniel 7:25 (3 and 1/2 years = 42 months = 1,260 days). Using the same day-year principle as did William Miller, Sears decoded these texts into the year AH1260, or 1844.
bit of a strange coincidence isnt it. And to think, it doesnt even come from SDA doctrine (comes from Islam actually...somehow they based it on counting forward 1260 years from the year Muhammad migrated to Mecca), i dont know exactly how their counting system is supposed to work (he migrated in 622), however, it supposedly lines up with the same year in history 1844...imagine that!
EDIT/UPDATE
Ok so....
Because the Islamic lunar calendar has only 354 or 355 days in its year, it slowly rotates relative to the Gregorian calendar year. The year 2021 CE corresponds to the Islamic years AH 1442 – 1443. AH 1443 corresponds to 2021 – 2022 in the Common Era.wikipedia
from the above reference, here are the conversion formulas for it...
AH = (CE − 622) × 33 ÷ 32
CE = AH + 622 − (AH ÷ 32)
CE = AH + 622 − (AH ÷ 32)
when i work it out based on 1844 date, i get 1260.1875 days/years back to 622 A.D (links with Revelation 12)
An uncanny coincidence to say the least!
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I did, and commented on it. But there was not Scripture to back it. Can you find any Scripture that shows that books were part of the earthly Day of Atonement? Because I posted what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement, and it is not look at books.
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