5 Questions about John the Baptist

Do you believe John/Elijah will come before Jesus returns? (Future from today)


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Acts29

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I have some questions about John the Baptist. (I will try to clip the scriptures quoted short for brevity, as I'm sure you can look up the greater context if needed.)

Question 1.
Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’
John 10:41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign

How did John come 2000 years ago in the POWER of Elijah yet preform NO sign?

Question 2.
Speaking to the wicked Jews who were persecuting Jesus, Jesus said this:
John 5:33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.

Did the Pharisees, etc. rejoice in John's light 2000 years ago?

Questions 3.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished.

How do you understand these two verses? Verse 11 is future tense. Verse 12 is past tense. Which is correct? Or, are both statements correct? Meaning John was Elijah who came, AND is Elijah to come and will restore all things. Most believe verse 12. Does anyone believe verse 11?

Question 4.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Jesus said John/Elijah will restore all things. Peter prophesied that heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the times of restoration of all things., thus tying the return of Jesus to this restoration of all things. What did John restore 2000 years ago? A relative handful of people? Hardly a drop in the bucket let alone ALL things. How do you understand this?

Question 5.
Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’
Malachi 4:5 “And, behold, I will send to you Elijah the Tishbite, before the great and glorious Day of Yehovah comes; 6 who shall turn again the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his neighbor, lest I come and strike the earth grievously.

It appears from these texts that Elijah's coming to turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, etc. is tied directly before to the Day of the Lord. Those who have studied "The Day of the Lord" in the OT generally recognize this is still a future event. Here is the poll question.

Do you believe John the Baptist will come (future tense) in the spirit and power of Elijah before the return of Jesus to restore all things, turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, and make ready a people prepared for the Lord?
 

Carl Emerson

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How did John come 2000 years ago in the POWER of Elijah yet preform NO sign?

1.
Because His focus was repentance.

2.
Yes, there was a mini revival...

3.
Both - past tense in JB and future in the church.

4. Maybe the time of the Jews will return again an all Israel will repent and be saved.

5. Yes through the church - eventually, after all was are told we have the 'nature of Elijah'
 
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TribulationSigns

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The most basic fundamental flaw in most Christian's hermeneutics is in not understanding how God uses people or items as "types" which are signifying something far more important than the literal person, place or thing that God uses to illustrate the truth. Like when He speaks in future terms of some nation like Babylon, or of a plow, a ruler, a sword, an animal, a Temple, etc. Scripture interprets Scripture, so we have to consider the whole context, content, and what God "actually" meant by it, rather than how we privately interpret it today. Like when the Scriptures declared the prophesy that Elijah must come first before Christ, it was actually a reference to John the Baptist who cam in the Spirit and Power of Elijah--and so on and so forth. In other words, let God define His own terms. Whether that is a man, fig tree, stones, wolves, serpents, sword, bread or gold. We ask, what is God addressing in this context and how is it gospel related, is it a historical parable, what is the spiritual signification of it, etc., etc.

For example...

Malachi 4:5
  • "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:"
Even as the Prophecy of Malachi was so obviously literal. So much in fact that there are many misguided souls today who still believe Elijah must "physically" come again before Christ returns to fulfill that prophecy. Why? Because they simply refuse to believe that Christ "spiritualized", what to them, is "so obviously literal."

Matthew 17:10-13
  • "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
  • And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
  • But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
  • Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."
Elijah had already come first fulfilling the prophesy, but they didn't know him and thus did to him whatever they listed (chose). It wasn't that Elijah didn't already come exactly as Malachi prophesied, it was that they simply didn't know it because they were looking for all to be fulfilled "physically" and it spoke in Spirit and truth. Just as they missed the Messiah for the same reason, they were looking for an earthly or physical kingdom, reign, rule, freedom from the Romans, restoration of the nation of Israel physically, etc., etc. But God NEVER intended it to be literally or physically Elijah. Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we "know" that John the Baptist was the fulfillment:

Luke 1:17
  • "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
John the Baptist came as metonymy in the same Spirit and Power of Elijah, not physically as Elijah, but after the model. And that is what the Malachi prophesy always meant no matter what Israel's congregation leaders supposed. It doesn't matter that some people don't get it, that's what the prophesy always looked forward to. Christ interpreted the meaning of this to His disciples (Matthew 17:10-13; Luke 1:17) explaining it as referring to John the Baptist who came in the same "Spirit and Power" that characterized the prophet Elijah. As long as we interpret Scripture by Scripture and not by what "seems" right in our own eyes, or by booksellers, church traditions, or by mimicking ideas of famous theologians, we can not go wrong. Indeed, following your logic, Christ spiritualizes what is so obviously literal. But it's not so, Christ spiritualized what God always intended to be spiritual and not physical/literal, and it is He that sent the Spirit of truth that these things might be made known or revealed to us.

John 14:17
  • "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
Whether one sees these things or not is not in my hands, but in the power of the Spirit of truth that reveals its validity. As it did with the more noble (honest) Bereans, who searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were true or not. As Jews, they didn't simply follow the teachings of the religious leaders of Israel, they followed the word. Thus they believed Christ was indeed the Messiah prophesied in Scripture, and John the baptist indeed came before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah. What I can say is the carnal mind that looks at things in worldly, carnal, or physical terms of swords, script and purse does not see these things as truth.
 
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3 Resurrections

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This is a subject I have been digging into myself for a while. Good questions all, Acts 29. Could I throw some of my thoughts in here? You know, I come at this from a sort of Preterist perspective (though maybe not from any of the typical Preterist views).

Question 1.
Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’
John 10:41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign

How did John come 2000 years ago in the POWER of Elijah yet preform NO sign?

We know that John the Baptist performed no signs during his earthly ministry. But was that really the end of John the Baptist's presence on earth in those days? Here is my proposal. John the Baptist may very well have been one of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints that Jesus raised the same day He was resurrected. THEN John the Baptist might very well have been performing miraculous signs in the same "spirit and power of Elijah" after his resurrection that day. Christ had once said that of men born of women, there had not risen a greater than John the Baptist. So with this highest accolade coming from Christ Himself, why wouldn't John the Baptist have been one of those Christ chose to raise to life again in Matthew 27:52-53?

Here is one text that indicates that could have been the case. In Matthew 11:12-15 (Interlinear), Christ spoke about the imprisoned John the Baptist. "For all the prophets and the law until John prophesied. And if ye are willing to receive it, he is Elias who is about to come. He that has ears to hear, let him hear." Here, John the Baptist is sitting in prison at the end of his earthly ministry, yet Jesus says that John the Baptist is the Elias who is ABOUT TO show up - in the near future, say, perhaps as one of the Matthew 27 resurrected saints coming out of a grave near Jerusalem.

If John the Baptist / Elijah's ministry was to operate in the time before the "great and dreadful Day of the Lord", when the "restoration of all things" would take place, this is the text you brought up which spoke more about this "restoration". That text is in Acts 3:19-23. Shortly after Pentecost, Peter had just performed a miracle healing the lame man. He was teaching the people in the Temple about Jesus, saying, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;" (Is this a resurrected John the Baptist?) "him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

If a resurrected John the Baptist / Elijah was ministering as a prophet to the Jews in those days after the AD 33 resurrection, some would hear, and some would not hear his message for restored family and neighbor relationships. Those who did not hear him would be destroyed. This was the AD 70 destruction of the Jewish nation and its Temple and priesthood.

Questions 3.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished.

How do you understand these two verses? Verse 11 is future tense. Verse 12 is past tense. Which is correct? Or, are both statements correct? Meaning John was Elijah who came, AND is Elijah to come and will restore all things. Most believe verse 12. Does anyone believe verse 11?

Yes, I believe verse 11. BOTH statements in verse 11 and 12 are correct. This question #3 applies to the same train of thought above. John the Baptist's coming as Elijah in a future tense in verse 11 would apply to the case of a resurrected John the Baptist after AD 33, if he was about to come as one of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints. This would be in the near future to when Jesus spoke verse 11. Verse 12 would apply to John's past ministry on earth before his execution by Herod.

Question 2.
Speaking to the wicked Jews who were persecuting Jesus, Jesus said this:
John 5:33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.

Did the Pharisees, etc. rejoice in John's light 2000 years ago?

Yes, the Pharisees "were willing for an hour to rejoice in his light", as the Interlinear puts it. When the Pharisees sent a delegation from Jerusalem to John to ask if he was the Messiah, the Pharisees had been impressed with John's actions and message that were stirring the people to repentance. They were considering if John might have been the fulfillment of Daniel's prophesied "Messiah the Prince", since that was the very year in AD 30 when Daniel 9:25's "Messiah the Prince" was prophesied to be manifested among them. But John informed them otherwise, and their brief hopes were dashed.

Question 4.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Jesus said John/Elijah will restore all things. Peter prophesied that heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the times of restoration of all things., thus tying the return of Jesus to this restoration of all things. What did John restore 2000 years ago? A relative handful of people? Hardly a drop in the bucket let alone ALL things. How do you understand this

If John was one of the resurrected Matthew 27 saints, their purpose on earth was to act as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till they all came in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, as Ephesians 4:11-13 described. This was a process of "restoring all things" in the early church.

Malachi 3:1-4 also speaks of John the Baptist acting as Elijah in the days before Christ's AD 70 coming. "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:" (John the Baptist / Elijah's role) "And the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to His temple," (in AD 70), "even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

Once Christ returned in AD 70 and crushed the corrupt, obsolete Temple system, this restored the True worship in spirit and truth in the New Jerusalem established with the New Covenant in the New Heavens and the New Earth conditions. This was to "restore" worship to what it should have been. The "restoration of all things" with the unshaken Kingdom of God standing alone without the Old Jerusalem as an idolatrous rival.

Question 5.
Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’
Malachi 4:5 “And, behold, I will send to you Elijah the Tishbite, before the great and glorious Day of Yehovah comes; 6 who shall turn again the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his neighbor, lest I come and strike the earth grievously.

It appears from these texts that Elijah's coming to turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, etc. is tied directly before to the Day of the Lord. Those who have studied "The Day of the Lord" in the OT generally recognize this is still a future event.

This particular "Day of the Lord" was the AD 70 era, when Christ was "striking the earth grievously" under those "Days of Vengeance" against those who had betrayed and murdered Him. Those who had not been hearing and heeding John the Baptist's message would be destroyed during that "Great Tribulation" period.

Malachi 4 warned of this eventual destruction, with a final, strong reminder to give heed to what Moses the servant of God had once said. God had told Moses back in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 that the Lord would raise up a prophet from among his brethren, like unto Moses. Anyone who would not give heed to that prophet speaking words in God's name, He would "take vengeance on him" - and that was during the AD 70 era's "Days of Vengeance" on Israel.

Okay, that was a truck-load dumped on you. But you did ask!
 
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Acts29

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The most basic fundamental flaw in most Christian's hermeneutics is in not understanding how God uses people or items as "types" which are signifying something far more important than the literal person, place or thing that God uses to illustrate the truth. Like when He speaks in future terms of some nation like Babylon, or of a plow, a ruler, a sword, an animal, a Temple, etc. Scripture interprets Scripture, so we have to consider the whole context, content, and what God "actually" meant by it, rather than how we privately interpret it today. Like when the Scriptures declared the prophesy that Elijah must come first before Christ, it was actually a reference to John the Baptist who cam in the Spirit and Power of Elijah--and so on and so forth. In other words, let God define His own terms. Whether that is a man, fig tree, stones, wolves, serpents, sword, bread or gold. We ask, what is God addressing in this context and how is it gospel related, is it a historical parable, what is the spiritual signification of it, etc., etc.

For example...

Malachi 4:5
  • "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:"
Even as the Prophecy of Malachi was so obviously literal. So much in fact that there are many misguided souls today who still believe Elijah must "physically" come again before Christ returns to fulfill that prophecy. Why? Because they simply refuse to believe that Christ "spiritualized", what to them, is "so obviously literal."

Matthew 17:10-13
  • "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
  • And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
  • But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
  • Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."
Elijah had already come first fulfilling the prophesy, but they didn't know him and thus did to him whatever they listed (chose). It wasn't that Elijah didn't already come exactly as Malachi prophesied, it was that they simply didn't know it because they were looking for all to be fulfilled "physically" and it spoke in Spirit and truth. Just as they missed the Messiah for the same reason, they were looking for an earthly or physical kingdom, reign, rule, freedom from the Romans, restoration of the nation of Israel physically, etc., etc. But God NEVER intended it to be literally or physically Elijah. Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we "know" that John the Baptist was the fulfillment:

Luke 1:17
  • "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
John the Baptist came as metonymy in the same Spirit and Power of Elijah, not physically as Elijah, but after the model. And that is what the Malachi prophesy always meant no matter what Israel's congregation leaders supposed. It doesn't matter that some people don't get it, that's what the prophesy always looked forward to. Christ interpreted the meaning of this to His disciples (Matthew 17:10-13; Luke 1:17) explaining it as referring to John the Baptist who came in the same "Spirit and Power" that characterized the prophet Elijah. As long as we interpret Scripture by Scripture and not by what "seems" right in our own eyes, or by booksellers, church traditions, or by mimicking ideas of famous theologians, we can not go wrong. Indeed, following your logic, Christ spiritualizes what is so obviously literal. But it's not so, Christ spiritualized what God always intended to be spiritual and not physical/literal, and it is He that sent the Spirit of truth that these things might be made known or revealed to us.

John 14:17
  • "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
Whether one sees these things or not is not in my hands, but in the power of the Spirit of truth that reveals its validity. As it did with the more noble (honest) Bereans, who searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were true or not. As Jews, they didn't simply follow the teachings of the religious leaders of Israel, they followed the word. Thus they believed Christ was indeed the Messiah prophesied in Scripture, and John the baptist indeed came before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah. What I can say is the carnal mind that looks at things in worldly, carnal, or physical terms of swords, script and purse does not see these things as truth.

Spiritualized hermeneutics? Sounds like the "literary hyperbole" they teach in Bible college to convince them God did not really mean what He said. Sounds like another eloquent justification for unbelief to me, but who am I? Anyway, thanks for your response and please vote in the poll.
 
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Acts29

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1. Because His focus was repentance.

The power of Elijah is about repentance? Do I understand correctly? It seems the only repentance in Elijah's day came after God sent fire down upon the altar. A major physical sign.

2. Yes, there was a mini revival...

Revival among the ones persecuting and trying to kill Jesus? That is who He was speaking to.

3. Both - past tense in JB and future in the church.
Does that mean Elijah is the church to come? Not sure I follow what you mean.

4. Maybe the time of the Jews will return again an all Israel will repent and be saved.

Maybe? Not sure at this time?
Not all Israel will be saved when he comes, but many. Luke 1:17. Full salvation will come at a later appointed time.

5. Yes through the church - eventually, after all was are told we have the 'nature of Elijah'

Where is it written that the church would have the nature of Elijah? Not sure I follow.
Thanks, and please vote in the poll.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The power of Elijah is about repentance? Do I understand correctly? It seems the only repentance in Elijah's day came after God sent fire down upon the altar. A major physical sign.

What is greater - a physical sign or a soul coming to repentance?

Revival among the ones persecuting and trying to kill Jesus? That is who He was speaking to.

The main response was from common folk.

Does that mean Elijah is the church to come? Not sure I follow what you mean.

James 5:17
Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.

In a future revival the power of God will be manifest as never before but remember that when the spirit of Elijah comes there is reconciliation according to Malachi.

Maybe? Not sure at this time?

I dont claim to be an end times teacher - just some thoughts.


Not all Israel will be saved when he comes, but many. Luke 1:17. Full salvation will come at a later appointed time.

Where is it written that the church would have the nature of Elijah? Not sure I follow.

See James 5:17 above

Thanks, and please vote in the poll.
 
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Acts29

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This is a subject I have been digging into myself for a while. Good questions all, Acts 29. Could I throw some of my thoughts in here? You know, I come at this from a sort of Preterist perspective (though maybe not from any of the typical Preterist views).

Thanks. Of course, share your thoughts freely. You have way to good of an eye and ear to fall for Preterism, but I'll play along. :)

We know that John the Baptist performed no signs during his earthly ministry. But was that really the end of John the Baptist's presence on earth in those days? Here is my proposal. John the Baptist may very well have been one of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints that Jesus raised the same day He was resurrected. THEN John the Baptist might very well have been performing miraculous signs in the same "spirit and power of Elijah" after his resurrection that day. Christ had once said that of men born of women, there had not risen a greater than John the Baptist. So with this highest accolade coming from Christ Himself, why wouldn't John the Baptist have been one of those Christ chose to raise to life again in Matthew 27:52-53?

Here is one text that indicates that could have been the case. In Matthew 11:12-15 (Interlinear), Christ spoke about the imprisoned John the Baptist. "For all the prophets and the law until John prophesied. And if ye are willing to receive it, he is Elias who is about to come. He that has ears to hear, let him hear." Here, John the Baptist is sitting in prison at the end of his earthly ministry, yet Jesus says that John the Baptist is the Elias who is ABOUT TO show up - in the near future, say, perhaps as one of the Matthew 27 resurrected saints coming out of a grave near Jerusalem.

Excellent observation concerning Matthew 27. Most assuredly I say to you John was one of the saints raised with Christ. However, he was not raised to start preaching and doing miracles. If that was the case the disciples would surely have at least mentioned it in the gospels to make their case for Jesus. Surely, the greatest prophet born of woman doing great miracles would have been written down by somebody. John, and all the rest of the OT saints, was raised with Christ to be caught up with Christ that day into heaven in the first broad rapture. Jesus said He was going to do release the captives.

Luke 4:18 ... To proclaim liberty to the captives ... 21 ... Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.

Further, Paul spoke about God bringing to the rapture those who "sleep in Jesus" and THEN the "dead in Christ" would be raised. 1 Thess 4. Those who "sleep in Jesus" are not the same as the "dead in Christ." Those who sleep in Jesus are the saints raised with Him that day and taken into heaven. That is why God will "bring" them to the rapture that they may all rejoice together.

If John the Baptist / Elijah's ministry was to operate in the time before the "great and dreadful Day of the Lord", when the "restoration of all things" would take place, this is the text you brought up which spoke more about this "restoration". That text is in Acts 3:19-23. Shortly after Pentecost, Peter had just performed a miracle healing the lame man. He was teaching the people in the Temple about Jesus, saying, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;" (Is this a resurrected John the Baptist?) "him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

If a resurrected John the Baptist / Elijah was ministering as a prophet to the Jews in those days after the AD 33 resurrection, some would hear, and some would not hear his message for restored family and neighbor relationships. Those who did not hear him would be destroyed. This was the AD 70 destruction of the Jewish nation and its Temple and priesthood.

The Day of the Lord is just that. The Day of Jesus' coming. It isn't just another in a long line of destructions. The Day of the Lord is very severe for the wicked, but it also comes with healing for the righteous. Also, the middle aged men ruling and plotting to kill Jesus were all dead well before 70 AD. That would make the prophecy of vengeance upon those who didn't listen untrue. Did verse 2-3 happen in 70 AD?

Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. 3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the Lord of hosts.

Also, the restoration of all things comes first, THEN the Day of the Lord. Therefore, John/Elijah must come first. No one else would have the power to restore the sad state of the church and Israel.

You are on the precipice of making another very critical observation! Bravo! The prophet like Moses.
John is coming first to restore all things before the Day of the Lord. Even Peter in Acts 3 connects these things to the prophet like Moses. Whoever will not listen to John/Elijah, will be destroyed from the people. Another version says, God will take vengeance on them. When is God's wrath? The Day of the Lord, which follows after John. Think about these things and you will begin to see it. Good job.

Yes, I believe verse 11. BOTH statements in verse 11 and 12 are correct. This question #3 applies to the same train of thought above. John the Baptist's coming as Elijah in a future tense in verse 11 would apply to the case of a resurrected John the Baptist after AD 33, if he was about to come as one of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints. This would be in the near future to when Jesus spoke verse 11. Verse 12 would apply to John's past ministry on earth before his execution by Herod.

I understand your point here, but the whole thing relies on John having a parallel ministry with signs and wonders at the same time as the early disciples and them knowing nothing about it. Pretty big stretch that cannot be proven, or disproven, I suppose.

Yes, the Pharisees "were willing for an hour to rejoice in his light", as the Interlinear puts it. When the Pharisees sent a delegation from Jerusalem to John to ask if he was the Messiah, the Pharisees had been impressed with John's actions and message that were stirring the people to repentance. They were considering if John might have been the fulfillment of Daniel's prophesied "Messiah the Prince", since that was the very year in AD 30 when Daniel 9:25's "Messiah the Prince" was prophesied to be manifested among them. But John informed them otherwise, and their brief hopes were dashed.

That is an interesting guess. Though not one we are told about directly. Remember, Jesus was speaking to the very people trying to kill Him so it seems a bit unlikely they would have rejoiced in what John did or said. There is another option to consider. When John comes to restore all things, it includes building the third Temple which many of unbelieving Israel longs for. Those in Israel who hate Jesus and will not listen to John, will rejoice in what he will do to build that Temple. I can see them "playing along" for a time while the Temple is being built. We shall see.

If John was one of the resurrected Matthew 27 saints, their purpose on earth was to act as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till they all came in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, as Ephesians 4:11-13 described. This was a process of "restoring all things" in the early church.

Malachi 3:1-4 also speaks of John the Baptist acting as Elijah in the days before Christ's AD 70 coming. "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:" (John the Baptist / Elijah's role) "And the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to His temple," (in AD 70), "even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

Once Christ returned in AD 70 and crushed the corrupt, obsolete Temple system, this restored the True worship in spirit and truth in the New Jerusalem established with the New Covenant in the New Heavens and the New Earth conditions. This was to "restore" worship to what it should have been. The "restoration of all things" with the unshaken Kingdom of God standing alone without the Old Jerusalem as an idolatrous rival.

Did Jesus APPEAR in 70 AD? No. Jesus' covenant with the church does not replace or eliminate His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Moses. The Temple "system," as you call it, is written to apply forever. The ordinances God gave Moses are not idolatrous! God gave the law Himself. Now, there may be wicked people from time to time, but the word of God remains, even if almost no one in the church understands why. The "old" covenant isn't about the church. If God's covenant with Israel is no good, why do you think He will make good on His covenant with the church? The church has spent the last 2000 years trying to pretend God wasted His time with Israel for 1400 years. That isn't the case. I could tell you why, but that would get way off topic. Don't be jealous of Israel. Replacement theology comes from the root of jealousy and not knowing the heavenly promises of the church. God knew what He was doing even if it doesn't make sense to you right now. His plans of salvation are bigger than most understand, and they include those in bondage under the law. Here is the very next verse from Malachi we have been quoting.

Malachi 4:4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments
. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

This particular "Day of the Lord" was the AD 70 era, when Christ was "striking the earth grievously" under those "Days of Vengeance" against those who had betrayed and murdered Him. Those who had not been hearing and heeding John the Baptist's message would be destroyed during that "Great Tribulation" period.

Malachi 4 warned of this eventual destruction, with a final, strong reminder to give heed to what Moses the servant of God had once said. God had told Moses back in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 that the Lord would raise up a prophet from among his brethren, like unto Moses. Anyone who would not give heed to that prophet speaking words in God's name, He would "take vengeance on him" - and that was during the AD 70 era's "Days of Vengeance" on Israel.

As noted earlier, the adults who rejected John and Jesus were dead before 70 AD. Most people never made it to their 40th birthday in those days.

Okay, that was a truck-load dumped on you. But you did ask!

No sweat! Keep searching and asking questions. Give heed to the Spirit when God speaks to you through another person. He does it all the time and very few hear it.
 
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grafted branch

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I have some questions about John the Baptist. (I will try to clip the scriptures quoted short for brevity, as I'm sure you can look up the greater context if needed.)

Question 1.
Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’
John 10:41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign

How did John come 2000 years ago in the POWER of Elijah yet preform NO sign?

Question 2.
Speaking to the wicked Jews who were persecuting Jesus, Jesus said this:
John 5:33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.

Did the Pharisees, etc. rejoice in John's light 2000 years ago?

Questions 3.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished.

How do you understand these two verses? Verse 11 is future tense. Verse 12 is past tense. Which is correct? Or, are both statements correct? Meaning John was Elijah who came, AND is Elijah to come and will restore all things. Most believe verse 12. Does anyone believe verse 11?

Question 4.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Jesus said John/Elijah will restore all things. Peter prophesied that heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the times of restoration of all things., thus tying the return of Jesus to this restoration of all things. What did John restore 2000 years ago? A relative handful of people? Hardly a drop in the bucket let alone ALL things. How do you understand this?

Question 5.
Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’
Malachi 4:5 “And, behold, I will send to you Elijah the Tishbite, before the great and glorious Day of Yehovah comes; 6 who shall turn again the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his neighbor, lest I come and strike the earth grievously.

It appears from these texts that Elijah's coming to turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, etc. is tied directly before to the Day of the Lord. Those who have studied "The Day of the Lord" in the OT generally recognize this is still a future event. Here is the poll question.

Do you believe John the Baptist will come (future tense) in the spirit and power of Elijah before the return of Jesus to restore all things, turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, and make ready a people prepared for the Lord?
I vote no because I lean toward preterits but I find faults, or at least difficult areas, that are hard to explain in all the various end time views.

Whether John the Baptist was Elijah or not is one of these difficult and debatable areas that I personally haven’t drawn a firm position on. JtB and the 2 witnesses have too many similarities to ignore and I think you should consider them when looking at this question.


Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (in some kind of way he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded at Herod’s birthday party.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the spirit of life from God enters into them and they stood on their feet. Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose. Since Jesus was in the grave for 3 days, perhaps it is the extra ½ day till the graves of the saints are opened.​
 
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Grafted branch, I too would have to vote "No" for basically the same reason. John the Baptist was ministering as "Elijah" for some time before the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord" back in AD 70. But then he was "raptured" from the earth as one of the "living and remaining" saints in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 who would join the newly-resurrected saints in the AD 70 resurrection. Together, they met the Lord in the air and were taken to heaven. So John the Baptist will not be on earth before the next, final third resurrection event in our future.

I'm firmly convinced that the Two Witnesses were the former high priests Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel who were slain in the Idumean attack in AD 67 or 68. They were stripped and left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem with their enemies making jokes as they stood on their dead bodies. Josephus wrote a LOT about this episode. He gave a virtual duplicate of Revelation's details of the sixth trumpet judgment found between Revelation 9:13 and Revelation 11:14.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Spiritualized hermeneutics? Sounds like the "literary hyperbole" they teach in Bible college to convince them God did not really mean what He said. Sounds like another eloquent justification for unbelief to me, but who am I? Anyway, thanks for your response and please vote in the poll.

The question is whether one actually receives the very Scripture I have quoted. Christ clearly stated that John the Baptist was Elias who came. That is it. There won't be Elijah's coming in the future or in 70AD. Of course, there will be some people who insisted that Elijah has not yet come because of their flawed doctrine.

The Lord judges and I am comfortable with that.
 
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grafted branch

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Grafted branch, I too would have to vote "No" for basically the same reason. John the Baptist was ministering as "Elijah" for some time before the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord" back in AD 70. But then he was "raptured" from the earth as one of the "living and remaining" saints in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 who would join the newly-resurrected saints in the AD 70 resurrection. Together, they met the Lord in the air and were taken to heaven. So John the Baptist will not be on earth before the next, final third resurrection event in our future.

I'm firmly convinced that the Two Witnesses were the former high priests Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel who were slain in the Idumean attack in AD 67 or 68. They were stripped and left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem with their enemies making jokes as they stood on their dead bodies. Josephus wrote a LOT about this episode. He gave a virtual duplicate of Revelation's details of the sixth trumpet judgment found between Revelation 9:13 and Revelation 11:14.
I know Josephus was a very important historian but since his writing was not the inspired word of God I have to always place what the scriptures say ahead of any other writings.

I’ve read many of your posts and I can’t argue against your views but I can’t completely agree because there’s not definitive proof in some areas.

I just keep studying and examine the views of others and compare them with the scriptures to see if they are true.
 
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Absolutely agree with you, grafted branch, on your ranking of Josephus's historical material. Scripture definitely takes precedence over any and all historians' works. Josephus was NOT inspired. However, I believe God preserved this man's life (one of 80 survivors out of 600 in that AD 63 shipwreck on the way to Rome), for a definite purpose of giving us an eye-witness account of the times, even though it may have been slanted somewhat in deference to his Roman patron. There is much in what he writes that, unbeknownst to Josephus, was a spot-on match for Revelation's prophecies about this period.

Your cautious approach to what I have written is very much appreciated. I ask no one to swallow what I write without chewing on it thoroughly. If there are any internal contradictions in my views or blatant impossibilities, it is a kindness to bring that up for me to rethink my remarks and to either add confirmation or to dump them. As you have said, there is circumstantial evidence in some things that are not entirely conclusive. At some point, however, the case has to be decided "beyond a reasonable doubt" - not beyond any doubt whatever. This level of doubt varies with each individual, which is okay.
 
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I know Josephus was a very important historian but since his writing was not the inspired word of God I have to always place what the scriptures say ahead of any other writings.

Bingo!
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I have some questions about John the Baptist. (I will try to clip the scriptures quoted short for brevity, as I'm sure you can look up the greater context if needed.)

Question 1.
Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’
John 10:41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign

How did John come 2000 years ago in the POWER of Elijah yet preform NO sign?
How are you coming to the conclusion that he needed to perform a sign (KJV has "miracle")? All that him coming in the spirit and power of Elijah means is that he would speak boldly and powerfully like Elijah did.

Question 2.
Speaking to the wicked Jews who were persecuting Jesus, Jesus said this:
John 5:33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.

Did the Pharisees, etc. rejoice in John's light 2000 years ago?
Yes, some did. They thought he might be either the Messiah or Elijah (the literal Elijah himself) before he told them otherwise.

John 1:19 Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20 He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”
21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”

Questions 3.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished.

How do you understand these two verses? Verse 11 is future tense.
It was future tense as of the time the prophecy in Malachi 4 was given and Jesus was speaking from that perspective rather than to the future as of the time He was speaking.

Verse 12 is past tense. Which is correct?
Both.

Or, are both statements correct? Meaning John was Elijah who came, AND is Elijah to come and will restore all things. Most believe verse 12. Does anyone believe verse 11?
You're misinterpreting verse 11. All Jesus was doing there was indicating that, yes, the prophecy indicates that Elijah is going to come first, but then He explained that he came already. He was first speaking from the perspective of the time that the prophecy was given and confirming that Elijah was to come first and then He spoke from His perspective at the time and indicated that Elijah had already come.

Question 4.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Jesus said John/Elijah will restore all things. Peter prophesied that heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the times of restoration of all things., thus tying the return of Jesus to this restoration of all things. What did John restore 2000 years ago? A relative handful of people? Hardly a drop in the bucket let alone ALL things. How do you understand this?
Matthew 17:11 was speaking from the standpoint of what had to occur in order to make the eventual restoration of all things a certainty (John the Baptist making the way for Jesus first and then Jesus dying and rising from the dead), while Acts 3:20 is speaking of the literal restoration of all things in the future. Those verses have different contexts.

Question 5.
Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’
Malachi 4:5 “And, behold, I will send to you Elijah the Tishbite, before the great and glorious Day of Yehovah comes; 6 who shall turn again the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his neighbor, lest I come and strike the earth grievously.

It appears from these texts that Elijah's coming to turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, etc. is tied directly before to the Day of the Lord. Those who have studied "The Day of the Lord" in the OT generally recognize this is still a future event.
It is your assumption that it's speaking of things that would occur directly before the day of the Lord.

But Joel 2:28-32 also speaks of things that happen before the day of the Lord. Peter references that prophecy in Acts 2:16-21 and relates it to what was happening on the day of Pentecost long ago. If Joel 2:28-32 is referring to the same day of the Lord as passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, which refer to the future day of Christ's return, then we can see that it referenced something that was at least beginning to be fulfilled already long before the arrival of the day of the Lord. So, why can't that be the case in regards to Malachi 4:5-6 as well?

Elijah (John the Baptist) did come before the day of the Lord just like the prophecy says. People assume that these prophecies like Joel 2:28-32 and Malachi 4:5-6 are only speaking of things that had to happen shortly before the day of the Lord, but that isn't necessarily the case.

Here is the poll question.

Do you believe John the Baptist will come (future tense) in the spirit and power of Elijah before the return of Jesus to restore all things, turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, and make ready a people prepared for the Lord?
No, He already came, just as Jesus said. The prophecy gives no indication that he would come twice and Jesus did not indicate that, either.
 
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Acts29

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Grafted branch, I too would have to vote "No" for basically the same reason. John the Baptist was ministering as "Elijah" for some time before the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord" back in AD 70.

There are many scriptures about the Day of the Lord. Can you show me even one that fits into 70 AD?
 
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Acts29

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How are you coming to the conclusion that he needed to perform a sign (KJV has "miracle")? All that him coming in the spirit and power of Elijah means is that he would speak boldly and powerfully like Elijah did.

Jesus said power of Elijah. He didn't say "speak powerfully." I just assumed He meant "power."

It was future tense as of the time the prophecy in Malachi 4 was given and Jesus was speaking from that perspective rather than to the future as of the time He was speaking.

Both.

You're misinterpreting verse 11. All Jesus was doing there was indicating that, yes, the prophecy indicates that Elijah is going to come first, but then He explained that he came already. He was first speaking from the perspective of the time that the prophecy was given and confirming that Elijah was to come first and then He spoke from His perspective at the time and indicated that Elijah had already come.

Matthew 17:11 was speaking from the standpoint of what had to occur in order to make the eventual restoration of all things a certainty (John the Baptist making the way for Jesus first and then Jesus dying and rising from the dead), while Acts 3:20 is speaking of the literal restoration of all things in the future. Those verses have different contexts.

It is your assumption that it's speaking of things that would occur directly before the day of the Lord.

But Joel 2:28-32 also speaks of things that happen before the day of the Lord. Peter references that prophecy in Acts 2:16-21 and relates it to what was happening on the day of Pentecost long ago. If Joel 2:28-32 is referring to the same day of the Lord as passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, which refer to the future day of Christ's return, then we can see that it referenced something that was at least beginning to be fulfilled already long before the arrival of the day of the Lord. So, why can't that be the case in regards to Malachi 4:5-6 as well?

Elijah (John the Baptist) did come before the day of the Lord just like the prophecy says. People assume that these prophecies like Joel 2:28-32 and Malachi 4:5-6 are only speaking of things that had to happen shortly before the day of the Lord, but that isn't necessarily the case.

No, He already came, just as Jesus said. The prophecy gives no indication that he would come twice and Jesus did not indicate that, either.

Fair enough. Thanks.
 
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There are many scriptures about the Day of the Lord. Can you show me even one that fits into 70 AD?

Well, the "Great and dreadful day of the Lord" in Malachi 4:5 was the day when the righteous would tread under foot the ashes of those who had done wickedly (v. 3) As prophesied, the Lord would burn them up to ashes, so that there would be "neither root nor branch" (v. 1). This would be the eradication of the Jewish tribes, so that there would be no recorded ancestry left, nor the prospect of any tribal descendants.

This is what happened in the AD 70 era. Quite literally, the genealogy records were burned up, leaving no record of the tribes' ancestries, nor any way from then on to prove from what tribe one's ancestors had been a part of. Josephus recorded this burning of the archives by the Zealots in AD 66 at the start of the rebellion (Wars 2.17.6).

In addition, God promised Satan the anointed cherub back in Ezekiel 28:18-19 that "...therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be anymore."

Satan was also one of the wicked from Malachi 4:3 that was turned to ashes in Jerusalem's AD 70 Lake of Fire, and would be trodden underfoot. The Romans believers were promised this very thing in Romans 16:20, that "...the God of peace shall crush Satan under your feet shortly." The book of Romans being written around AD 60, they didn't have to wait very long until Satan would be trodden under their feet - in AD 70.
 
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