Seventh-day Adventist General Conference Statement

BobRyan · Oct 23, 2021

tall73 said:
Why not mention GC president Wilson asking Ford to accept correction on the sanctuary

Ford's problem was the Bible and missing some basic understanding of what SDA doctrine on the IJ was claiming in the first place. I found it laughable that he could have gotten so spun around.

tall73 · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
that sort of looks like hair-splitting

Ok - well that sums our difference on that point pretty well.

Sure. I think that her

- telling someone their view was wrong when she later endorsed a very similar view by his son.

- saying they should work it out by the Bible.

- then endorsing one of the views promoted, which she earlier objected to.

- then writing to Uriah Smith who objected to her changing the view she expressed in her earlier testimony

- then ignoring all these great insights of the new endorsed view when writing a widely distributed volume

All makes for a not great example of Ellen White correcting views.

tall73 · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
It demonstrates a well known (among SDAs) dispute about the Law in Galatians 3 - that you also admitted is part of SDA history -- where Ellen White did write about the correct view and specifically stated that the leading members of the church of her day should not get stuck on a wrong view.

You mean after she told them to work it out from the Bible and not to use her view to settle it?

So an issue where she specifically said not to use her views is the one you take to illustrate using her views to interpret?

tall73 · Oct 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
Ford's problem was the Bible and missing some basic understanding of what SDA doctrine on the IJ was claiming in the first place. I found it laughable that he could have gotten so spun around.

Yeah, must be why they wanted him to go with Ellen White as an authority.

But you totally ignored the quote from the Adventist publication of the Adventist GC president saying that in a thread about the Adventist church's view of Ellen White's authority, related to Scripture.

BobRyan · Oct 29, 2021

tall73 said:
Why not mention GC president Wilson asking Ford to accept correction on the sanctuary

Ford's problem was the Bible and missing some basic understanding of what SDA doctrine on the IJ was claiming in the first place. I found it laughable that he could have gotten so spun around.

tall73 said:
Yeah, must be why they wanted him to go with Ellen White as an authority.

It could be imagined that way. For me his separation from the Bible and basic logic was enough of a deal breaker to drop his story line.

When and SDA pastor or theologian gets so turned around backward that they won't even accept basic obvious Bible teaching - I know some folks will then offer them a point-blank statement that Ellen White may have made affirming that same Bible doctrine to see if the light comes on for the person all spun around at that point. Sometimes that works sometimes it does not work. I always want to ask the guy that this works on -- the "next question" which is "so how come you found the Bible so difficult to understand on this particular point?".

Nine times out of ten it turns out to be some personal preference that is backed up by a lot of guessing and assumptions.

tall73 · Oct 29, 2021

BobRyan said:
It could be imagined that way.

That is some imagination that puts this into the mouth of GC president Wilson, writes it up in 1980, published it, and then hosted it even today on Adventist servers:

Events since Glacier View

Pastor Wilson commented that Dr. Ford did not appear really to accept this philosophy, that he required evidence before changing an opinion, and has set up his own criteria of what is acceptable evidence criteria that exclude the writings of Ellen G. White as being doctrinally authoritative.

AdamjEdgar · Oct 30, 2021

tall73 said:
That is some imagination that puts this into the mouth of GC president Wilson, writes it up in 1980, published it, and then hosted it even today on Adventist servers:

Events since Glacier View

Pastor Wilson commented that Dr. Ford did not appear really to accept this philosophy, that he required evidence before changing an opinion, and has set up his own criteria of what is acceptable evidence criteria that exclude the writings of Ellen G. White as being doctrinally authoritative.

personally i do not see why forums continue to argue Des Ford vs E.G White.

The fact is, Des Ford never was an Adventist...he never agreed with church doctrine on the nature of Christ or the sanctuary even from his earliest years (by his own admission btw). Why are we continuing to waste time with this? Des was given an option, believe church doctrine or leave...he chose unwisely and suffered the only fate available to anyone from any denomination in similar circumstances. I do not see this as a reason to claim SDA church is a false religion or whatever you are trying to do.

These discussions just keep going around in circles, one could post numerous examples of similar issues from many other denominations. Actually, now that i think of it, a famous one comes out of the JW movement...Greg Stafford!

tall73 · Oct 30, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
personally i do not see why forums continue to argue Des Ford vs E.G White.

The fact is, Des Ford never was an Adventist...he never agreed with church doctrine on the nature of Christ or the sanctuary even from his earliest years (by his own admission btw). Why are we continuing to waste time with this? Des was given an option, believe church doctrine or leave...he chose unwisely and suffered the only fate available to anyone from any denomination in similar circumstances. I do not see this as a reason to claim SDA church is a false religion or whatever you are trying to do.

I didn't argue Des Ford vs. Ellen White here. And you started the other thread on Des Ford's views.

Instead I posted here President Wilson appealing to Ford to accept Ellen White as having doctrinal authority, when he wanted Bible evidence. This is an Adventist publication quoting the then General Conference president. So whatever you think of Des Ford's views, this is relevant to the conversation here about how the denomination uses and views Ellen White's writings.

Events since Glacier View

Pastor Wilson commented that Dr. Ford did not appear really to accept this philosophy, that he required evidence before changing an opinion, and has set up his own criteria of what is acceptable evidence criteria that exclude the writings of Ellen G. White as being doctrinally authoritative.

BobRyan · Oct 31, 2021

BobRyan said:
tall73 said:

Why not mention GC president Wilson asking Ford to accept correction on the sanctuary

Click to expand...

Ford's problem was the Bible and missing some basic understanding of what SDA doctrine on the IJ was claiming in the first place. I found it laughable that he could have gotten so spun around.

tall73 said:

Yeah, must be why they wanted him to go with Ellen White as an authority.

Click to expand...

It could be imagined that way. For me his separation from the Bible and basic logic was enough of a deal breaker to drop his story line.

When and SDA pastor or theologian gets so turned around backward that they won't even accept basic obvious Bible teaching - I know some folks will then offer them a point-blank statement that Ellen White may have made affirming that same Bible doctrine to see if the light comes on for the person all spun around at that point. Sometimes that works sometimes it does not work. I always want to ask the guy that this works on -- the "next question" which is "so how come you found the Bible so difficult to understand on this particular point?".

Nine times out of ten it turns out to be some personal preference that is backed up by a lot of guessing and assumptions.

tall73 said:
That is some imagination that puts this into the mouth of GC president Wilson, writes it up in 1980,...

"Pastor Wilson commented that Dr. Ford did not appear really to accept this philosophy,..."

"pastor Wilson" was a church administrator and did not edit or change any church doctrine at all and there is NO official church statement saying to ignore the Bible and just believe whatever Ellen White wrote about the Judgment - ... and pretty much all SDAs know it. Which is why all of our doctrinal studies establishing the correct view of the judgment in Dan 7 rely on the Bible alone.

The blunders Ford made regarding the Bible and the judgment in Dan 7 are fairly obvious - as has been noted before.

BobRyan · Oct 31, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
personally i do not see why forums continue to argue Des Ford vs E.G White.

That is a good point. Those who do it make zero effort to prove that we argue the case without the Bible, or that we argue "sola scriptura" or that the most extreme imagined scenarios against our POV are met with "Sola Ellen White" as the solution. (A point established in triplicate over there on the "Question for Sevenh-day Adventists" thread). Only non-SDAs try to drag Ellen White into it as we see on that thread.

tall73 · Oct 31, 2021

BobRyan said:
"pastor Wilson" was a church administrator and did not edit or change any church doctrine at all and there is NO official church statement saying to ignore the Bible and just believe whatever Ellen White wrote about the Judgment.

You state he is an administrator and did not edit or change doctrine. I did not claim he changed doctrine. I stated that it is an example of the use of Ellen White's writings by the church.

Pastor Wilson refers to Ford's rejection of the notion that Ellen White's writings are doctrinally authoritative.

Events since Glacier View

Pastor Wilson commented that Dr. Ford did not appear really to accept this philosophy, that he required evidence before changing an opinion, and has set up his own criteria of what is acceptable evidence criteria that exclude the writings of Ellen G. White as being doctrinally authoritative.

In fact, the same notion of Ellen White's writings being doctrinally authoritative was put into an official church statement, which was approved and voted by the General Conference session in 1995.

A Statement of Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy

As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine.

tall73 · Oct 31, 2021

BobRyan said:
Only non-SDAs try to drag Ellen White into it as we see on that thread.

You argue the very position Ellen White stated in that thread, even when you have to insert the notion where the texts don't say it.

Folks can read that thread and decide for themselves:

Question for Seventh Day Adventist

The topic of this thread is the Seventh-day Adventist Church's use of Ellen White's writings to correct inaccurate interpretations of Scripture, according to their official statement.

tall73 · Oct 31, 2021

BobRyan said:
Only non-SDAs try to drag Ellen White into it .

Adventists drag in Ellen White often, as the official statements make clear.

Statement of Confidence in the Writings of Ellen G White - Adventist.org

We reaffirm our conviction that her writings are divinely inspired, truly Christ-centered, and Bible-based. Rather than replacing the Bible, they uplift the normative character of Scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations of it derived from tradition, human reason, personal experience, and modern culture.

A Statement of Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy

As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine.

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

The Seventh-day Adventist Church Fundamental belief #18 The Gift of Prophecy
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

BobRyan · Oct 31, 2021

BobRyan said:
That is a good point. Those who do it make zero effort to prove that we argue the case without the Bible, or that we argue "sola scriptura" or that the most extreme imagined scenarios against our POV are met with "Sola Ellen White" as the solution. (A point established in triplicate over there on the "Question for Sevenh-day Adventists" thread). Only non-SDAs try to drag Ellen White into it as we see on that thread.

tall73 said:
Adventists drag in Ellen White often,

Well we have proof that this is not the case not only in every Bible study guide SDAs have for the Bible doctrine on the judgment as Evangelists like Doug Bachelor and their study guides prove - but also the thread we have here that you are posting on - and also this one -- Question for Seventh Day Adventist

Where all efforts to drag Ellen White into this doctrine are made by non-SDAs and SDAs are entirely satisfied with making the case "sola scriptura".

Here you provide a great example of SDAs NOT dragging Ellen White into a doctrinal evaluation of the judgment since our standard is to prove all doctrine "sola scriptura".

tall73 said:
Adventists drag in Ellen White often, as the official statements make clear.

Statement of Confidence in the Writings of Ellen G White - Adventist.org

We reaffirm our conviction that her writings are divinely inspired, truly Christ-centered, and Bible-based. Rather than replacing the Bible, they uplift the normative character of Scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations of it derived from tradition, human reason, personal experience, and modern culture.

A Statement of Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy

As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine.

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

The Seventh-day Adventist Church Fundamental belief #18 The Gift of Prophecy
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

BobRyan · Oct 31, 2021

tall73 said:
Folks can read that thread and decide for themselves:

Question for Seventh Day Adventist

.

I have to admit - I love the first six posts there -

tall73 · Oct 31, 2021

BobRyan said:
Well we have proof that this is not the case not only in every Bible study guide SDAs have for the Bible doctrine on the judgment as Evangelists like Doug Bachelor and their study guides prove

Bob, Ellen White told Adventists not to use her writings in public efforts. But the official statements speak for themselves. They say such things as her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine.

Where all efforts to drag Ellen White into this doctrine are made by non-SDAs and SDAs are entirely satisfied with making the case "sola scriptura".

That is remarkable! How did Non-SDA's vote these statements at the Seventh-day Adventist Church General Conference sessions, and host them on the official Adventist websites?

Statement of Confidence in the Writings of Ellen G White - Adventist.org

We reaffirm our conviction that her writings are divinely inspired, truly Christ-centered, and Bible-based. Rather than replacing the Bible, they uplift the normative character of Scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations of it derived from tradition, human reason, personal experience, and modern culture.

A Statement of Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy

As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine.

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

The Seventh-day Adventist Church Fundamental belief #18 The Gift of Prophecy
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

BobRyan · Oct 31, 2021

tall73 said:
You argue the very position Ellen White stated in that thread, .

I never argue that Ellen White was not an SDA. Is it your claim that no doctrine can be tested "sola scriptura" if it turns out that Ellen White also accepted it?? That seems a bit extreme.

BobRyan · Oct 31, 2021

tall73 said:
Bob, Ellen White told Adventists not to use her writings in public efforts.

That does not matter since there is zero logic/motive/reason to do it in the first place.

It's like saying "Ellen White told Adventists not to avoid drinking water" - there is no reason to do such a thing. So nice that she said it - but this is not exactly rocket science since our denomination is already committed to testing all doctrine sola scriptura. Which means all of our doctrinal presentations are ... wait for it.... sola.... scriptura

tall73 · Oct 31, 2021

BobRyan said:
I never argue that Ellen White was not an SDA. Is it your claim that no doctrine can be tested "sola scriptura" if it turns out that Ellen White also accepted it?? That seems a bit extreme.

I stated that SDA official statements indicate her writings carry divine authority for doctrine, and that that they CORRECT inaccurate interpretations of Scripture.

Folks can sort that out pretty easily.

BobRyan · Oct 31, 2021

tall73 said:
They say such things as her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine.

You yourself claimed on this thread that God's prophets speak with prophetic authority. Are you wanting to study the doctrine of prophets and the gift of prophecy - from the Bible now? is that the new direction?

Seventh-day Adventist General Conference Statement

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