One of The STRONGEST Arguments for The Sabbath ~

Soyeong · Oct 31, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Ok, not matter what I present we do not see eye to eye. Thanks for engaging !

Do you not see it as being problematic to interpret those passages as Jesus and Paul expressing disagreement with what the Father has commanded?

Maria Billingsley · Oct 31, 2021

Soyeong said:
Do you not see it as being problematic to interpret those passages as Jesus and Paul expressing disagreement with what the Father has commanded?

I'm bowing out, respectfully.
Blessings.

Aussie Pete · Oct 31, 2021

Soyeong said:
Jesus set a sinless example of how to obey the Mosaic Law, including keeping the 7th day holy, so he was much more religious and zealous for keeping it than the Pharisees were. He never criticized the Pharisees for obeying the Mosaic Law, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly, so his purpose in criticizing them was not to get them to stop obeying what God commanded them to do, but in order to call them to a fuller obedience to it. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, and in Mark 7:6-9, he criticized them for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In other words, his problem with the Pharisees was not that they were too religious, but that they were not religious enough.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so the sum of everything that Jesus taught in the NT by word and by example was to obey the Mosaic Law, which means that the degree to which you obey the Mosaic Law is the degree to which you value what he taught in the NT. Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather the New Covenant was given for a time when the Israelites would return to obedience to the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33). Changing the medium upon which God's law is written from stone to our hearts so that we will obey it does not change the content of what it instructs us to do. The Spirit also has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law.

The Mosaic Law is how the Israelites knew what sin is and how we know what sin is (1 John 3:4), and we are obligated to refrain from what God has revealed to be sin through His law regardless of whether or not someone considers themselves have been given God's gift of getting to be under it. You should consider being judged by the law to be far preferable than to perish apart from it. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is what it means to be under grace and mercy, while wanting to not be under it is rejecting God's grace and mercy.

All of the commandments that God has given were specifically chosen in order to teach us how to love Him, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our love for God with our obedience to Him. For example, in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that anyone obey loves him will obey his teachings, anyone who does not love him will not obey his teachings, and his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so anyone who refuses to come under what the Father has taught does not love Jesus, especially when everything that the Father has taught was specifically taught for the purpose of teaching us how to love Jesus.

It is not being a legalist to think that followers of God should follow what God has
command, but rather it is a sin not to. There is no need to remove the letters of Galatians and Colossians from the Bible, but rather there is only the need not to interpret those letters as speaking against obeying God's word.

Law has been replaced by grace. Law was in place for a relatively short time and had one purpose. Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew nothing of the Law. The purpose of the Law has been fulfilled for those who are born again. I've come to Christ. The Law of statutes and regulations has been replaced by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. That's how I live. Beats dead legalism any day.

eleos1954 · Oct 31, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
The New Covenant involves following the Law of the Spirit - a living Word from Him in our hearts.

Law, Christ, and the Spirit

The problem, says Paul, was not the law itself but the weakness of the “flesh” (Rom. 8:3). Confronted with sin and death, the law was powerless because the flesh is hostile to God and cannot “submit to God’s law” (verse 7, NIV). The solution is the sacrificial death of the Son of God, who condemned sin in the flesh, liberating us from the condemnation of the law (verse 3), and enabling us to live in obedience to God’s will through the Spirit.

Now the law is restored to its proper place and called “the law of the Spirit of life.” Christ died for us “in order that the righteous requirement of the law [the law of the Spirit of life] might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the [sinful nature] [seeking acceptance from God through the works of the law] but according to the Spirit” (verse 4, NIV). The weakness of the flesh is overcome, and the Spirit enables us to obey the righteous requirements of God’s law.

Living in the Spirit does not negate God's laws ... living in the Spirit gives us the power (through Christ) to overcome sin (which is transgression of the law).

“If you love me, you will keep my commands,” He says, “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever” (John 14:16). Jesus knows that keeping His commands in this fallen world will require a divine source of power in the form of the Holy Spirit’s presence living within us.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Oct 31, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
Law has been replaced by grace. Law was in place for a relatively short time and had one purpose. Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew nothing of the Law. The purpose of the Law has been fulfilled for those who are born again. I've come to Christ. The Law of statutes and regulations has been replaced by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. That's how I live. Beats dead legalism any day.

If there is no law then what need do you have of grace? Abraham followed commandments...Genesis 26:5

Yeshua HaDerekh · Oct 31, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Ok but it covers more than fasting. Here is other scripture talking about the same thing.
Colossians 2
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

It is not the same thing. The Colossians were pagans/gentiles that were new converts.

Carl Emerson · Oct 31, 2021

HIM said:
And yet nothing from Scripture to back up this.

Not so, but you probably interpret it with denominational bias.

Can you show me any scripture that refutes my position?

Carl Emerson · Oct 31, 2021

Soyeong said:
Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is the content of the gift of being saved from living in transgression of God's law, so keeping the 7th day holy is part of the content of our salvation. Whether someone refusing to come to Christ when it comes to keeping the 7th day holy is sufficient to prevent them from being saved is not my decision to make, but I pray that it is not sufficient.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that whoever relaxes the least part of the law or teaches others to do the same would be called least in the Kingdom of God, so it would appear that there might be room for someone to relax the command to keep the 7th day holy while still making it into the Kingdom, however, that is not a good position to aim for. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of God, and the Father has made His will known through His law (Psalms 40:8). Furthermore, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, and this was said of people who were doing good things, so refusing to obey God's law can still prevent someone from entering the Kingdom, and people are much better off trusting God when it comes to keeping the 7th day holy.

In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus kept the 7th day holy, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, so someone who refuses to keep the 7th day holy is also refusing to come to Jesus for rest in that regard. The reasons why God specifically chose to give all of the laws that He did teach us something about the nature of who He is, so our goal should be to represent the nature of who God is as accurately as we can through living in obedience to His law, while someone who refuses to keep the 7th day holy is denying the truth about what that law teaches us about the nature of God and is misrepresenting who He is. Again, whether that is sufficient to cause someone to lose their salvation is not my decision to make, but it's something that we would be much better off avoiding.

Are you seriously claiming that no one can Love Jesus unless they keep a Saturday Sabbath?

Maria Billingsley · Oct 31, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
It is not the same thing. The Colossians were pagans/gentiles that were new converts.

Why would that matter? It is still not a salvation issue for neither Jew or Gentile.

SabbathBlessings · Oct 31, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Are you seriously claiming that no one can Love Jesus unless they keep a Saturday Sabbath?

If you do not want to worship Jesus on His holy Sabbath day now, what makes you think you will want to on the New Earth, because the Lords Sabbath day of worship is not going away. It was made from the very beginning Genesis 2:1-3 and will continue for eternity Isaiah 66:23. God’s will for us is not different in heaven as it is on this earth.

SabbathBlessings · Oct 31, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Why would that matter? It is still not a salvation issue for neither Jew or Gentile.

I think you may have missed there are two different Sabbaths in the Bible. The seventh day Sabbath that is a commandment of God and the annual sabbath(s) feasts days that is about food and drink offerings. Col 2:14-17 is not referring to the seventh day Sabbath that is part of God’s Ten Commandments that are eternal Matthew 5:19, it is referring to the annual sabbath(s) feast days.

Carl Emerson · Oct 31, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Law, Christ, and the Spirit

The problem, says Paul, was not the law itself but the weakness of the “flesh” (Rom. 8:3). Confronted with sin and death, the law was powerless because the flesh is hostile to God and cannot “submit to God’s law” (verse 7, NIV). The solution is the sacrificial death of the Son of God, who condemned sin in the flesh, liberating us from the condemnation of the law (verse 3), and enabling us to live in obedience to God’s will through the Spirit.

Now the law is restored to its proper place and called “the law of the Spirit of life.” Christ died for us “in order that the righteous requirement of the law [the law of the Spirit of life] might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the [sinful nature] [seeking acceptance from God through the works of the law] but according to the Spirit” (verse 4, NIV). The weakness of the flesh is overcome, and the Spirit enables us to obey the righteous requirements of God’s law.

Living in the Spirit does not negate God's laws ... living in the Spirit gives us the power (through Christ) to overcome sin (which is transgression of the law).

“If you love me, you will keep my commands,” He says, “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever” (John 14:16). Jesus knows that keeping His commands in this fallen world will require a divine source of power in the form of the Holy Spirit’s presence living within us.

So are you advocating that your relatonship with Him is Law centred or Life centred?

Carl Emerson · Oct 31, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
If you do not want to worship Jesus on His holy Sabbath day now, what makes you think you will want to on the New Earth, because the Lords Sabbath day of worship is not going away. It was made from the very beginning Genesis 2:1-3 and will continue for eternity Isaiah 66:23. God’s will for us is not different in heaven as it is on this earth.

The answer is very simple - I worship Jesus every day...

SabbathBlessings · Oct 31, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
The answer is very simple - I worship Jesus every day...

So do I, but that doesn’t delete the Sabbath commandment.

eleos1954 · Oct 31, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
So are you advocating that your relatonship with Him is Law centred or Life centred?

The law leads us to Christ .... and then after receiving Him Christ leads us back to the law.

The great principles of God’s law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God’s love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God’s covenant with His people and the standard in God’s judgment.

Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, and its fruit is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow human beings. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Deut. 28:1-14; Ps. 19:7-14; 40:7, 8; Matt. 5:17-20; 22:36-40; John 14:15; 15:7-10; Rom. 8:3, 4; Eph. 2:8-10; Heb. 8:8-10; 1 John 2:3; 5:3; Rev. 12:17; 14:12.)

You would need to provide further explanation of what you mean by this.

Carl Emerson said:
So are you advocating that your relatonship with Him is Law centred or Life centred?

My relationship with the Lord is Love centered.

Carl Emerson · Oct 31, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
So do I, but that doesn’t delete the Sabbath commandment.

Is your relationship with Him Law centred or Life centred?

Carl Emerson · Oct 31, 2021

eleos1954 said:
The law leads us to Christ

The Holy Spirit draws us to Christ.

SabbathBlessings · Oct 31, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Is your relationship with Him Law centred or Life centred?

Same reply as @elos1955 it is love centered. For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

I really do not understand why anyone would not want to keep God’s commandments. Happy is he who keeps the law Proverbs 29:18 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.” Psalms 40:8

The commandments are for our own good.

SabbathBlessings · Oct 31, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
The Holy Spirit draws us to Christ.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin John 16:8, if we do not harden are hearts and is given to help keep the commandments of God John 14:15-18 and for those who obey. Acts 5:32. You do not receive the blessings God gives, by disobedience. That’s why everything is conditional. John 14:15 IF you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. This is a beautiful promise from Jesus.

Gregory Thompson · Oct 31, 2021

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment (Acts 15:24)

I've noticed in discussions of this nature, the first letter sent by the apostles in Jerusalem is quite often overlooked. The item being discussed if the new gentile believers needed to be 1) circumcised and 2) keep the law. The apostles said on both items that they have given no such commandment.

The following was provided for application:

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (Acts 15:28-29)

This is what the apostles taught, based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The sabbath obligation is generally an extension of it since it is related to "keeping the law" of which no such commandment was given by the apostles.

One of The STRONGEST Arguments for The Sabbath ~

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Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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