Are there many on this forum who have received the Holy Spirit; with the bible evidence of tongues ?

AbbaLove

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Just noticed that my last two posts were deleted as well as all of Harry's posts. Over the years have found Harry's input in Pentecostal forum to be that of an elder with a humble faithful spirit that i admire.

Apparently Harry decided to delete what were most insightful posts. Perhaps my last post thanking Harry for bringing balance to this DF forum thread discussion (Pentecostal -- WOF) was misunderstood. Had decided to post his marine avatar out of respect for his military service to America ... please forgive me if i somehow offended him.

In that post i thanked Harry for his fine service to the body of Christ [church] and his military service [Marine] to America on that deleted post. However, that post and the previous post, that Oscar posted a "like" were both deleted.

Those nine supernatural Gifts are just as necessary and active today as with the 1st century church (called out chosen ones). These Gifts are imperative for "Deeper Fellowship" whether Jew or non-Jewish (Romans 10:12 and Galatians 3:28). Intercessory prayer is greatly enhanced with the Gift of a Spirit-filled prayer tongue.

Being that all of Harry's posts have been deleted it's likewise only right that all of my posts in this thread be deleted. They all now read "deleted". Would appreciate if Saint JOHN or a CF Administrator can completely delete all reference to my Messianic faith avatar.
 
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Saint JOHN

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AbbaLove thanks once again for your reply ,as somewhat a novice at posts and thread stuff its not possible for me to remove things .. !?

Tongues is The Prayer mechanism for worshiping in THE SPIRIT !

ie 1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

you have the ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues, as commanded by Jesus Christ) once you recieve the Holy Spirit; getting mixed up by how they are used IN THE CHURCH ( people NOT a building) seems a common mistake.

again.. 1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: ( they ALL can and do )

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.

it is a private prayer time ,church use is just to show unbelievers you are what you say ! ( real Christians ) not tares.
 
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Saint JOHN

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Tongues as in different languages, Greek, Hebrew ect?

NO !!! it is given upon receiving the Holy Spirit you dont learn it, its GODS prayer language ( sometimes sounds like other language but as in acts you soon tell its not ie they thought they were babbling/drunk )
as mentioned before .. Jesus said :

Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

this is a COMMAND !

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

dont listen to men who say no .. there are many against Christ teachings.
 
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coffee4u

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Tongues as in different languages, Greek, Hebrew ect?

NO !!! it is given upon receiving the Holy Spirit you dont learn it, its GODS prayer language ( sometimes sounds like other language but as in acts you soon tell its not ie they thought they were babbling/drunk )
as mentioned before .. Jesus said :

Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

this is a COMMAND !

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

dont listen to men who say no .. there are many against Christ teachings.

Tongues is far more than that. You need to look at all of the verses.
Acts 2:8
And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
Shows that yes tongues may be in someones language, which would certainly include Greek, Hebrew ect.

1 Corinthians 14:5

I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
Tongues can be spoken to the church as a whole and be interpreted for the whole to be edified, not just in private prayer to God.

1 Corinthians 12

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
Not all the church will speak in tongues, the same way not all with do miracles, not all will have the gift of healing. Gifts are given as God sees fit. Shown here and in the verse above.

Because the church is made up of many parts.
12The body is a unit, though it is composed of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit to drink. 14For the body does not consist of one part, but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact, God has arranged the members of the body, every one of them, according to His design. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

Every part is valuable and not to be judged or looked down upon. The person who does the washing up is as needed as the healer. Let's be sure we not only not look down on the smaller parts but remember to lift them up as they may be more in need of it than the person who can pray in tongues.

John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
This is true but a person can worship in spirit and truth and still not have the gift of tongues. It was not given to be a litmus test of a persons faith, that is judgment.

And just coming back to add:
1 Corinthians 13:1-13

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
That tongues does not guarantee a person is praying, worshiping or acting within God's will. Love is more important. Imagine speaking in tongues but having no love. It would not be there if this could not happen.Just a further reason that speaking in tongues is not a test of anyone's faith or their standing before God.
 
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Saint JOHN

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Coffee4u... Thanks for your reply; But you are totally wrong.

as demonstrated in acts , the prescribed identifier of receiving the Holy Spirit IS tongues ! ( God given approach ) first thing the Spirit will do ( when BORN AGAIN ) is cry out to God ( as a babe ) HIS WAY.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
yet IN THE CHURCH.....

they all can and still do ! but it is for private prayer , only used in the CURCH (people not a building) to demonstrate you are anointed ones (christ ians-Gods way).

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is
unfruitful.

clear identification.

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

carnal only has understanding ! ( your own language/s)

Ro 8:9 ... Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

mark 16v16+ is Jesus telling you what you have when he comes into you . So whatever YOU THINK, you had better comply .All is given upon receiving the REAL HOLY SPIRIT.
 
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coffee4u

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Coffee4u... Thanks for your reply; But you are totally wrong.

as demonstrated in acts , the prescribed identifier of receiving the Holy Spirit IS tongues ! ( God given approach ) first thing the Spirit will do ( when BORN AGAIN ) is cry out to God ( as a babe ) HIS WAY.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
yet IN THE CHURCH.....

they all can and still do ! but it is for private prayer , only used in the CURCH (people not a building) to demonstrate you are anointed ones (christ ians-Gods way).

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is
unfruitful.

clear identification.

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

carnal only has understanding ! ( your own language/s)

Ro 8:9 ... Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

mark 16v16+ is Jesus telling you what you have when he comes into you . So whatever YOU THINK, you had better comply .All is given upon receiving the REAL HOLY SPIRIT.

I am not taking away your scriptures, no one is denying those scriptures they are all true and good.
all I am doing is sharing more scripture with you. You can't simply take the verses you like and ignore the rest. If you use only a handful of scriptures on a topic you can miss what else the Bible has to say, you can miss the rest of the picture.

1 Corinthians 12
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

These are not my words.
This was the church and not all the church spoke in tongues, it is right there in scripture, I am not making it up.
 
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Hazelelponi

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would be interested to know the doctrines ;as most here seem to be just religious !?

When I was saved it felt like all of heaven was poured out over my head, the feeling was utterly indescribable and I was on my face worshipping God for hours...

But I was alone at that time in my room, and I don't know if I ever spoke in tongues, but I can say I understood every word I spoke, and so I don't think I spoke in tongues...

Gods Holy Spirit has been with me ever since.
 
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aiki

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would be interested to know the doctrines ;as most here seem to be just religious !?

??? Nowhere does Scripture prescribe speaking in tongues as a vital indicator of genuine salvation.

Are you suggesting that those who have not had a moment of speaking in tongues are "just religious"? If so, can you show from God's word the basis for such a suggestion?

Gods response to your token obedience = gives you the Holy Spirit and the signs as in mark 16v16+ .
This is a commandment, but most here don't seem interested in what Jesus said only a religious show ??

Well, a couple of things to note here: First, the last part of Mark 16 - from verse 11 or so to the end of the chapter - are, by various Bible scholars, considered to be a later accretion to the chapter, an addition not part of the original text of the chapter. It might not be a good idea, then, to argue strongly from a section of Scripture under such doubt as to its veracity. Second, verse 16 describes various signs that will follow those who believe, but the verse does not prescribe such signs for all Christians, making the signs essential or necessary to saving faith in the Gospel and genuine salvation. A description is not necessarily a prescription: describing something doesn't, by itself, constitute making it a command. When one looks at verse 16, one does not find a prescription, a command to do likewise, or the assertion that such things MUST follow all genuine believers in all times. The verse merely says that such signs will (not absolutely must) follow believers (though, not all believers throughout all time). It is an unwarranted extrapolation from the verse to assert that what is described in the verse is prescriptive for all believer everywhere in all times. The verse doesn't say or imply this.

Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
so according to the word, how to pray in the spirit....

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

I'm not clear on why you've offered this selection of verses. Are you assuming that John 4:24 is referring to tongues-speaking? In context, Jesus's words were addressing the Samaritan doctrine (to which the woman at the well referred) that mount Gerizim in Samaria was the proper place of worship for the Jews rather than Jerusalem. Jesus indicated that geography, a physical location, wasn't key to worship of God but, rather truth and spirit. His exchange with the woman had nothing at all to do with speaking in tongues.

And John 17:17? Talking about his disciples, Jesus said the following:

John 17:14-22
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;


What "word" is Jesus speaking of in verse 17? Tongues? No, he is referring to his teaching of them (vs. 14). Verse 20, then, is not indicating that, through tongues-speaking, the disciples will cause others to believe, but through the sharing of the teaching - the word - of Christ. This is exactly what happens in Acts 2. Filled with the Spirit, the gathered disciples immediately go out into the street and begin to preach the Gospel - the teachings, or word, of Christ - to those they encounter. Each person hearing the the word of Christ, the Gospel, preached by the disciples, hears it in their own mother tongue, however. The "tongues" of the disciples were not nonsensical babbling, an indecipherable tumult of noise, but a translation of the teachings of Christ to all those who heard the disciples' words.

1 Corinthians 14:14
? Is Paul mandating speaking in tongues for all believers in all times?

1 Corinthians 14:8-19
8 For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?
9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.
11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.
12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.
13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.
18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;
19 however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.


In all that Paul wrote in this passage, there is not one command, no prescription, to all believers to speak in tongues. Why would Paul give such a command when he had written earlier in his first letter to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 12:9-11
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.


Paul does NOT say here that all believers are given all of the same spiritual gifts. Rather, the Spirit distributes the various gifts "to each one individually as He wills." And so, Paul also wrote:

1 Corinthians 12:30
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?


Paul not only stipulated that tongues-speaking is the spiritual gift of some, but, in the passage from chapter 14 above, that it is far more important to speak in a manner that edifies the Body of Believers, in a manner that is comprehensible, than to speak ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Taken together, Paul's comments on tongues in the two chapters I've offered, do not support a "tongues for all" doctrine and certainly not a "tongues prove you're saved" belief.

So, looking at your selection of verses I don't see anything that supports the notion that speaking in tongues is essential to salvation and/or an experience of the Holy Spirit. Tongues certainly don't place a person spiritually above those who don't speak in tongues.
 
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coffee4u

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Paul said not all have the gift of speaking in tongues. Why do charismatics ignore this?

I would not say all charismatics ignore this since someone will always be along to prove you wrong when you make a generalization about any group. Some charismatics choose to ignore this.
Not only ignore that the Bible explicitly says that not all the church will speak in tongues, but they ignore the other gifts.

1 Corinthians 12
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Apostles, prophets and teachers are first, followed by workers of miracles, healing, helping and administration.

Last was tongues. Even helping is before tongues.

There are many gifts, and many that tend to not get mentioned.
Serving, encouraging, giving and showing mercy are considered to be among the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 12:6-8

6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

Then there are the gifts of Wisdom, Knowledge, faith and discernment.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Again the Bible reaffirms the point that the gifts given will differ.

A person would do well to discoverer the gift they do have and not judge others for theirs or to judge themselves over not having a particular gift. I think it would be all too easy to have the gift of serving or mercy and for this to be overlooked. These are quiet gifts but they are of no less importance than the others.

1 Corinthians 12:21-27
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.


27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
No matter what your gift is.
 
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Saint JOHN

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IWalkAlone Thanks for your reply..

these statements are FOR THE CHURCH (people not a building) HOW YOUR CHURCH IS RUN !!!
no more than 3 tongues, corresponding interpretation and max 2-3 prophecy ALL to be decent and in order.

Cor14v18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church ..................

they all could and do ! but only to demonstrate you are what you say ( anointed ones - Christ ones ),its private prayer to God, his way ( out of the mouths of babes and suckling's, born from above/again)
as most has been already posted.

as for COFFEE4U.. to be called a tinkling cymbal, you MUST FIRST speak in TONGUES !! as all true Christians can.(only way to worship in the spirit as COMMANDED by Jesus Christ ).

as for AIKI.. wow.. most has been answered in previous posts, again IN THE CHURCH usage ;
basically as MARK 16v16 states THESE (all of) happen to you upon receiving the Holy Spirit )
and of coarse people want to tear out what shows them up for wana bees , tares, etc ) you cant get them all without him; beware of those who pervert the Gospel ! and remove things !

ps

acts8v18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

A con man willing to pay for just make a decision or faith or grace or confess etc etc he could have (as they do today) made it up himself ; Something real happened ; and still does as people give away their religious stuff and hand over to Gods ways as prescribed by Jesus Christ.
 
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coffee4u

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Taken from https://archive.gci.org/articles/the-use-and-misuse-of-spiritual-gifts/

>>First, Paul reminds the Corinthians that God divides his gifts among his people (1 Corinthians 12:8-11, 29-30). It is not realistic to expect everyone to speak in tongues – and yet that is what some Pentecostals do. This is divisive today, just as it was in ancient Corinth. When a Christian says, my gift is better than your gift, it is an insult to other Christians, and an insult to God. No one should feel superior about a spiritual gift, since no one deserves any of the gifts. The gifts are given to serve others, not to feel superior to others.

The point of 'tinkling symbol' is a warning. Without love, we are spiritually worthless, no matter what tongues we speak.

It is so sad to see someone come here causing division and putting down Christians without the gift of tongues. Christians he does not know, has never met, Christian who may have all kinds of other spiritual gifts.

Titus 3:10
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,

I am leaving this conversation as it hurts my heart and causes me upset.
 
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Saint JOHN

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coffe4u Thanks for your reply; and I do not put down Christians ! but WARN religious types who THINK they are ok and listen to those who would LIE and try to enter the kingdom of GOD some other WAYS !

without the signs following your not on the same page ( RELIGIOUS ) carnal just like those who thought they did God a favor by terminating the REAL Christians even though they THOUGHT it was correct. I suppose you believe the thief on the cross went to heaven !? (carnal understanding as opposed to spirit)

No EGO trip with GODS GIFTS his is the glory for all but you must worship in spirit ( tongues ) or you only have carnal approach which is not on. Look in acts many instance of receiving with tongues again..

acts8v18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

A con man willing to pay for just make a decision or faith or grace or confess etc etc he could have (as they do today) made it up himself ; Something real happened ; and still does as people give away their religious stuff and hand over to Gods ways as prescribed by Jesus Christ.


PS i was looking for those who Know this not religious types..

To love someone,(God is Love) is to give God to them (truth) his ways not mans.

sorry if you got offended but Jesus offended many with his directness.

Mt 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 
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aiki

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as for AIKI.. wow.. most has been answered in previous posts, again IN THE CHURCH usage ;
basically as MARK 16v16 states THESE (all of) happen to you upon receiving the Holy Spirit )
and of coarse people want to tear out what shows them up for wana bees , tares, etc ) you cant get them all without him; beware of those who pervert the Gospel ! and remove things !

This is about the level of response I expected to get. Ad hominem. Ignoring the points that were made. Bloviating rhetoric. Very unfortunate - but not unexpected.
 
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IWalkAlone

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This scripture seems to say we are to grow up and no longer need teachers, evangelists or Apostles.

Ephesians 4:13 1 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ;

until
we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Compare Ephesians with Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we know in part and prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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This scripture seems to say we are to grow up and no longer need teachers, evangelists or Apostles.

Ephesians 4:13 1 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ;

until
we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Compare Ephesians with Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we know in part and prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
From what I see of the church generally, it seems that we have not yet come to the unity of the faith, and multitudes of professing Christians are still at the baby stage of their Christian walk. I see a lot blown around by every wind of doctrine as well. So, I don't think the church has grown anywhere to the stage where we don't need the five-fold ministries given by the Holy Spirit to the church. Because this forum is a microcosm of the state of the church, we don't have to look far beyond here to know that we fall very short of having the faith, hope and love that amounts to any stage of perfection.
 
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ARBITER01

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From what I see of the church generally, it seems that we have not yet come to the unity of the faith, and multitudes of professing Christians are still at the baby stage of their Christian walk. I see a lot blown around by every wind of doctrine as well. So, I don't think the church has grown anywhere to the stage where we don't need the five-fold ministries given by the Holy Spirit to the church. Because this forum is a microcosm of the state of the church, we don't have to look far beyond here to know that we fall very short of having the faith, hope and love that amounts to any stage of perfection.

Think about some of the folks you and I have read about from the past Oscarr.

Even in the old generations, there were very few Christians over the years that went the distance with Jesus (beyond the others around them), that actually followed His footsteps and received an anointing upon their head like He had, with The Holy Spirit resting upon them in power.

Do we see any Wigglesworth's or Etter's or Lake's or Jeffrey's within these generations right now?

The answer is absolutely not. This is because of unbelief. They don't believe Jesus, they believe their pastor. They won't sanctify The Lord in their hearts because they think they have all they need already.
 
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IWalkAlone

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From what I see of the church generally, it seems that we have not yet come to the unity of the faith, and multitudes of professing Christians are still at the baby stage of their Christian walk. I see a lot blown around by every wind of doctrine as well. So, I don't think the church has grown anywhere to the stage where we don't need the five-fold ministries given by the Holy Spirit to the church. Because this forum is a microcosm of the state of the church, we don't have to look far beyond here to know that we fall very short of having the faith, hope and love that amounts to any stage of perfection.
Its not about the Church growing, although it should be, but its about individual growth. Its not some future event but is in the present. We should grow up. Maybe the reason people haven't grown is they are listening to people instead of scripture. The way i see it we learn about what God requires and the rest is learning about ourselves which God shows us.
 
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